[MOD] Realism:The Third Resurrection

[Perfect_Blue]

I have solved the Immortal issue (No longer for everyone and doesn;t require any Iron or Copper

Come on buddy How many times, eh???

 

[israfil]

Cottages, Villages, towns, ext. all have DIFFERENT entries, last tims I checked. So you can have -1 food for towns, without having -1 food for towns and NOT have it for cottages.

I'm not sure the whole scheme makes sense, since population is already accounted for by the overall city population. The idea feels good, but I think it might wreck the balance, especially with respect to the already lengthened growth pattern of cities.

Israfil.

 

[Nightravn]

This is a Clarification/statement about the natural resources of Western Canada. Western Canada contains vast amounts of natural gas, oil, and tar sands. I'm not quite sure about the exact statistics but the Athabasca tar sands in northern Alberta contain one of the largest oil deposits outside of the Middle East. I think that this would count as at least one oil resource for Western Canada, specifically Alberta. Or you could possibly move the oil resource in Western United States further north.

Sincerely,
Paulk

P.S. People who live in Alberta received a $400 resource check from the government for the massive profits we received from government regulated oil industry.

Already taken care of in the new map.... that was one of the first things I moved. I also add some gems in Canada representing the Diamond mines they have.

 

[Houman]

@Guys, LOL

I have fixed it! But have I said anywhere I have published it? Of course it is not working for you or have I sent you last night while dream walking the patch? Noooooo

I am collecting more issues so I provide the next patch at once and don't piss off the users. BTW the Cavalry and USCavalry have move 3 again. Only the Horde Units (is already implemented in your current version) have movement 4. This is because the Mongols could ride on a horse for 9 days, while eating conserved dryed food and blood or milk from their horses. This was something totally incredible at that time.

I try to give the Cold Fusion a chance and solve that issue as well. Then I would provide the whole patch.

The Game is still quite buggy. Do you remember when the Knight has 55% against Commando? It drove me nuts. The Civ4Unitinfos.xml was saying Trebuchet but in Game it said Commando. Until I found out that if the description in Civ4InfoClass.xml is pointing to a different unit this bug will happen. Trebuchet's Class had the description of Commando. I know its just text for the player, but the pointers can get messed up like this.

We have a similiar problem with the Coldfusion Wonder and ICBMs....damn I have no idea how to solve it there though....

@Israfil

Adding leader could be very tough. Beside the AI is the 3D Modelling important. How and who is going to model there a new 3D face? :|

@NIghtRavn, I will have a look on the map tonight.

Any more bugs? cool that wasn't that bad...
Thanks
Houman


Houman

 

[Houman]

@Paulk

I remember having applied for the University of Alberta for my Masters. They didn't take me! Neither did the other 6 Canadian Universities. So I was forced going to USA to do my Masters.

Why do Canadians dislike me?

Anyway, $400 for doing nothing? You guys are having a good time up there. That's why they refused taking me...

But we should be careful not putting to much oil resources everywhere. Unfortunately one oil resource is enough to build tanks, Airplanes, generate heat and electricity for the whole nation. So we should be careful not putting too much oil everywhere.

We have to make the Civs dependent from middle east's oil. So that everyone comes along and colonizes the middle east, start war and manipulate everything politically for their interests...like in real life.

 

[Nightravn]

Houman, well there is already a ton of oil around. I didn't add any but did move some like the one in the middle of the US up to Canada. I also moved some around in S. America to the area of Argentina. If you want I can try and go thru the map and try and make it more scarce. The problem with that is that it is a major Resource and with out any you are basically toast. Not to mention that it only takes one oil deposit for the whole CIV so unless we go with NON-realistic placement then most CIV will have access to at least one. I was looking at a world wide oil deposit chart and believe it or not, most countries produce some oil though most industrial nations use more than they produce. If only we could make it be used up in game....

Anyways..... I will have a look at the Map and see what I can do about it with out losing all realism. BTW did you know (i didn't) the US was the Worlds leading Exporter of Oil until the 50's and Canada is now the 9th. Also that the first copper mine in the US was in Jersey.... go figure huh. The things you can learn on the Internet.

 

[Drew77]

Hi I found a XML error when you start up a custom game or try to load a gam. Tag: Unit_Russia_tank54 info class was incorrect

You can still play the game and everything but, just thought you should know about it.

 

[Houman]

Drew,

Install the Patch!

 

[israfil]

BTW did you know (i didn't) the US was the Worlds leading Exporter of Oil until the 50's and Canada is now the 9th. Also that the first copper mine in the US was in Jersey.... go figure huh. The things you can learn on the Internet.

@Nightravn

... and Canada is the #1 oil source for the USA. At this point, US's dependence on Oil is more like a vulnerabiliy to fluctuating oil prices, rather than specific dependence on mid-east oil.

@Houman

Hey! I'm Canadian, and I like you just fine!

 

[israfil]

@Israfil

Adding leader could be very tough. Beside the AI is the 3D Modelling important. How and who is going to model there a new 3D face? :|

Well, temporarily we could simply use Saladin graphics for all arab users. Alternatively, we don't really need an animation - we can use an "animation" that only is a single frame of an image or painting or something. Otherwise, we can simply use a big fat question mark for the face in the short term. Yes, leader faces provide important enjoyment within the game, but they're not essential to game-play.

Hey, on a side-note. Wasn't Saladin a Kurd? Why is he an Arab leader? I think probably people have (as usual) mistaken Islamic for Arab. (Sigh)

Israfil.

 

[Los Tirano]

This a very nice mod. It has so much of what i was HOPING someone would gather together. Very impressed with the realistic time for one.

Have you thought of adding egyptian and greco-roman panthenon as other religions? Both influential, could be added on to polytheism as new techs. If Constantine hadnt adopted christianity all universities would have a temple of bacchus!

Egyptian religion has left its mark on egypt at least, and shamelessly i will say that converting everyone to the pharaoh (me) is one of my aims. They eye of Ra (egyptian flag) would be a good symbol. Zoroastrianism is a great stand in though. Eagle was a symbol of Ra, Horus, and the pharaoh, so it fits.

Also, while i found your mod came even closer to realism i have to ask that assassins be included. Due to their involvements throughout history and as the more quiet 'tools' of leaders for foreign affairs.

Superb work and good luck keeping it one of the best.

 

[AvianAvenger]

Also, while i found your mod came even closer to realism i have to ask that assassins be included. Due to their involvements throughout history and as the more quiet 'tools' of leaders for foreign affairs.

There's not much use for an assassin unit, who are they going to assassinate?
Its not like you can knock off other players with one. They cannot be used against an army.

I dont think they would fit into the scale of things too easily.

They could possibly be used to anger cities or holt city growth, or possibly be used to prevent great people been generated. However missionaries & great people are not viable targets because they get used up virtually within the one go.

 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Hey, on a side-note. Wasn't Saladin a Kurd? Why is he an Arab leader? I think probably people have (as usual) mistaken Islamic for Arab. (Sigh)

Israfil.

yep, Saladin was a Kurd, a fact some other probably try to forget as fast as they can
That and/or coupled with the fact that the guy lived during an era where religion was still sufficient to stomp on most nationalist feelings* withing the islamic empires.

*"most" since the initial empire had long ago fractured (as had the faith to be correct). The rising nationalism we're seeing today (militant islamism will not be able to eradicate this, or turn it around) is just another reminder that the difference between nations isn't that easy to remove (something the Romans, the Germans, the Habsburgs, the Russians, the British, etc. learned). Something that Europe during the Crusades was already learning by sword and fire.

btw, there were some pictures of the Mithraic Newyear on the BBC World website. Lots of fireworshipping, even if most are probably unaware of the reason why.

 

[Perfect_Blue]

Well, temporarily we could simply use Saladin graphics for all arab users. Alternatively, we don't really need an animation - we can use an "animation" that only is a single frame of an image or painting or something. Otherwise, we can simply use a big fat question mark for the face in the short term. Yes, leader faces provide important enjoyment within the game, but they're not essential to game-play.

A lot of people have made civilizations, but not many have come off that well. Look at Sevomod for an example; implemented a bunch of new civs, then promptly pulled them for a whole horde of reasons. New civs need to be sharp if they're going to be included in this mod, otherwise it'll just be a drawback.

 

[Houman]

@Nightravn,

I am disappointed from Firaxis. Since CIV3 they haven't improved a simple thing. Amount of resources!!! And this is something we cannot solve unless they change it in the game engine. If a CIV has one Oil resource, that covers everything the nation needs, no matter how big or small this nation is.

We need numbers, so that if your nation is too big, or if you are building a Tank, your Oil is being used up by 1. In that case your nation needs more oil than only 1 resource. That would make it more realistic and gives it more strategical flavor.

@Israfil

Well, temporarily we could simply use Saladin graphics for all arab users. Alternatively, we don't really need an animation - we can use an "animation" that only is a single frame of an image or painting or something. Otherwise, we can simply use a big fat question mark for the face in the short term. Yes, leader faces provide important enjoyment within the game, but they're not essential to game-play.

But can you actually imagine, if you are playing aginst this nation with this 1 frame pricture? How boring would that be seeing no emotions after a war or peace;no fear or happiness in their face? You see these faces all the time to negotiate with other nations. Without that a lot of joy will vanish.

I remember Tethurkan'Mod in CIV III, He actually did remove some parts of the existent Faces and added other stuff to them, changes the skin, eyes and hair color to make new leaders, which worked quite nice too. But that takes hell amount of time. With our tiny team yet totally out of scope...

Hey, on a side-note. Wasn't Saladin a Kurd? Why is he an Arab leader? I think probably people have (as usual) mistaken Islamic for Arab. (Sigh)

Indeed, he was a Kurdish from the Iranian plateau. He was a great leader and strategical commander. Unfortunatelly most Games are made for the typical understanding of western players, sometimes they even back the clichés. Just have a look at the Expansion, for the 100.000st times, we get an expansion pack, how Alexander "the Great" invaded the Persian Empire, killed raped and demolished everything in his way and he is called the Great because of these. But Napoleon or Hitler are Demons, who did both the same thing and strived for the same goals.

I have been playing CIV sind version I, I have been through all Age of Empires series etc, there is no one to try something new. There are far more interesting events in the history than Mongol invasion, Alexanders invasion, and Rome Almighty.

Regards
Houman

 

[Houman]

yep, Saladin was a Kurd, a fact some other probably try to forget as fast as they can
That and/or coupled with the fact that the guy lived during an era where religion was still sufficient to stomp on most nationalist feelings* withing the islamic empires.

*"most" since the initial empire had long ago fractured (as had the faith to be correct). The rising nationalism we're seeing today (militant islamism will not be able to eradicate this, or turn it around) is just another reminder that the difference between nations isn't that easy to remove (something the Romans, the Germans, the Habsburgs, the Russians, the British, etc. learned). Something that Europe during the Crusades was already learning by sword and fire.

The Knower won't forget that he was Kurdish. However I do not agree that nationalist feelings didn't exist within the Islamic empire. All these countries before Islam had a national Identity that is thousands of years older and richer than the later Islamic culture from Saudi Arabia. As an example I could mention Syria, Egypt and Iran (that includes Persians and Medians/Kurdish). However as Islam came into the power, they brought this idea of equalism, living in the Sharia law and election of a Khalif, which sounded very nice in the theory.

However as soon as the Arabs conquered all these countries, these promises were not fulfilled. The Arabs became the overlords over the conquered Egyptians, Syrians and Iranian people. There is enough historical evidence that even after conversion to Islam these people couldn't acquire first class status in the society. Being a Muslim was good, but an Arab Muslim was something special. These empty promises and injustice lead to new revolts like the Abbasid revolt, where the rulers declined the Khalifat and went back to the monarchy that had 5000 years tradition in Iran as well as re-introducing the sun-calendar instead of the less accurate Muslim lunar calendar.

Back to your claim, yeah you are right. This will never be happening, despite the fact the Sharia Law belongs to the desserts it came from and should be banned in all Moslem countries...

btw, there were some pictures of the Mithraic Newyear on the BBC World website. Lots of fireworshipping, even if most are probably unaware of the reason why.

Mithraic Newyear?? Mithraism is not being practiced since 2500 years. What you mean is the Zoroastrian New Year or Nowruz that is being celebrated by all the countries in and around Iran as I had mentioned before.

And it hurts very badly in my hurt when you say "Fire-worshipping". This is what the Muslim occupying forces told to the Iranians and the some Ayatollahs in Iran still say, especially to the Zoroastrians. No one is worshipping the fire, it is only regarded as the most pure element and therefore holy. It is used to meditate and reach god. Otherwise you could also say that the Muslims are stone-worshipper because they keep a holy stone in Mecca and worship a black cube. Or that the Christians worship the Cross. Which are both not true… So enough history lessons for today.

BTW publish the link here from BBC, I wanna see them.
Greetz
Houman

 

[israfil]

A lot of people have made civilizations, but not many have come off that well. Look at Sevomod for an example; implemented a bunch of new civs, then promptly pulled them for a whole horde of reasons. New civs need to be sharp if they're going to be included in this mod, otherwise it'll just be a drawback.

Fair enough, though I'm not recommending additional civs, but additional leaders for existing civs. Different implementation issues, and I think a little less problematic to complete.

Israfil.

 

[israfil]

And it hurts very badly in my hurt when you say "Fire-worshipping". This is what the Muslim occupying forces told to the Iranians and the some Ayatollahs in Iran still say, especially to the Zoroastrians. No one is worshipping the fire, it is only regarded as the most pure element and therefore holy. It is used to meditate and reach god.

Houman's emotion here is a good example of why, while we will try to make some historical accuracy improvements, everyone must accept that history is a matter of interpretation, and that any two people will find one's given "fact" quite historically divergent from the other's.

What I suggest, is that when we make recommendations for historical accuracy, we all make a decision to not be offended by the varying perspectives. We can't solve historical revisionism and "victors write the histories" syndromes with this game. However, we can make a game that allows an experience of re-creating history a bit more the way we want it to be, by being the victor in the game. And to eliminate the ways that the game mechanics interfere with that experience, by better rules, more units, technologies, better structures for these things.

I'm a Baha'i, for example, but adding the Baha'i Faith as a religion, if I had to replace another religion, would affect the game-play of those who see the existing religions as being more historically relevant and "world-spanning" in their influence. So until we can add extra religions I'm not going to get stressed about it. The game is still enjoyable and playable, and the work we are doing is improving the game-play immensely.

Israfil.

 

[israfil]

Hi,

One thing I was thinking about as a game dynamic is a curve of influence for religions. Where (and I think I know where/how to do this) religions have a small spread factor for the first few turns, which builds and builds until an apex at around 1000-1250 years, after which it begins to fall down to a certain final level. This would allow some advantage to founding new religions (there is less now), and show the impact of a religion, such as Christianity, struggling in its earliest years, but once it is established, becoming more and more popular, until it is widespread. At this point, it becomes an "establishment" religion, and begins to taper in its attractiveness, and newer religions that are "up and coming" may begin to make gains.

One impact is that it might be necessary to have some cities lose their older religious populations as they are close to an "expansion wave" of a newer religion. This may be due to violent conversion or simple attrition of believers into the new community. To do this right, rather than have religions be "present" or "not present", the game mechanics may have to mirror culture, where cities/squares are religious by percentage, with Tribal/Traditional spirituality being the original default. Inquisitions could force those percentages into certain patterns, but the interplay would simply shift these percentages around gradually, based on current spread values.

Now implementation problems aside, there are some problems with this.
One is that some religions may not always be missionary/spreadable, and different religions (historically) had different curve periods. Also, different religions have more or less effect on a community, depending on how much it's a "philosophy" vs. a fully community-defining faith. Taoism vs. Islam, for example. The impacts of time with these two are quite different, and I'm not sure how to represent this in the game mechanics.

The other problem, of course, is that my own bias shows here, insofar as my religious beliefs state that newer religions are more relevant/valid, the same way that newer university classes are more useful to the student. The older religion is still valid and true, but less relevant, and the newer one supercedes the older. However, a hard core Zoroastrian, for example, may not agree that his religion is less relevant now. However much my view might be that they are all "of god", the relevancy factor definately can be perceived as a sort of chauvenism, and my intention is not to pass judgement.

My only defense about that bias is that the curve I defined above seems to track with a historical pattern for religions' spread, though it is highly simplified.

Anyway, the real implementation issues are significant here, and this is just whistling in the dark until I work through some of the code to see if any of this is feasible.

regards,
Israfil.

 

[Los Tirano]

You said "There's not much use for an assassin unit, who are they going to assassinate?
Its not like you can knock off other players with one. They cannot be used against an army.

I dont think they would fit into the scale of things too easily.

They could possibly be used to anger cities or holt city growth, or possibly be used to prevent great people been generated. However missionaries & great people are not viable targets because they get used up virtually within the one go."

You haven't tried the assassin mod have you? They can assassinate the leaders of cities and incite the population to riot, as well as stealthily moving through enemy territories. When they go well the city is in anarchy for a number of turns. They can even kill great people, those that join cities as specialists that is. Also handy to knock off missionaries or great people moving between cities, because in the assassin mod they are stealth units, and despite being weak, can kill missionaries and great people with ease.

So, they really are quite useful. Can sow dissent amongst another civ by killing important people. This opens the way for a swift military campaign, or cultural 'integration'.

Realism is so far the best mod i know, but the assassin mod has its moments, why dont you give it a try?