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[MOD] Realism:The Third Resurrection

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by Houman, Feb 20, 2006.

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  1. ekephart

    ekephart Chieftain

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    I've run into the same problem, but it's only while "waiting for other civs". With 18 civs (plus barbarians) on such a large map the game has an absurd number of instructions to execute every turn. Also, because of all the barbarians I've found it's little slow even in earlier parts of the game. Anyone else?
     
  2. Paulk

    Paulk Humanite

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    I think this is a realistic solution to the jungle problem
     
  3. naf4ever

    naf4ever Dread Lord

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    Hey Houman empty your message box, ive been trying to message you.
     
  4. Los Tirano

    Los Tirano God-King

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    Had an idea, if one civ takes another civs capital, then from that city the old civs unique units can be built.

    e.g. player is egypt, they wander over to those annoying greeks and manage to take the weakly defended capital. From there the egyptians can now produce phalanxes, to bolster the armies of the pharaoh, provided they have copper.

    This is a better option than trading units on multiplayer, and represents the adoption of the military practices of other civs. Realistic because this happens. Countries often try to copy greatness. Not unbalanced because you have to take their capital, pacify it and then you can put their combat specialties to use. Or you could just make any civs city a prerequisite.

    Also could make wars even more interesting. The now rebel state of the former civ now fight their brothers on behalf of a new empire with the same units. :lol:
     
  5. Houman

    Houman TR Team Leader

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    Thank you all for your input. Indeed these reports will help a lot to make the timeline of events more realistic. However as some of you have already mentioned, it is impossible and also boring to make history happened exactly how it has been. If you eliminate a civilization in 3000 BC, naturally this Civ can't do the things it was meant to do in 1967 AD. ;)

    @Nightravn,

    1) Please contact Israfil, since he is the administrator of the project on source forge, he will give you the instructions what to do. But to make it faster just register with Source forge and send him your username so he can add you to the project.

    2) I liked your analysis a lot. You are right the industrious traits were too powerful 50% Wonder? What was Firaxis thinking? The financial issue is harder to spot and require testing the game longer. True, both are problems, I have solved both. From now the industrious trait get only an additional hammer for any field that gives already 3 hammers (=4 hammers) the financial trait instead of adding a coin to fields that produce already 2 coins -> only fields that produce 3 coins (= 4 coins).

    Regarding the religions:

    Zarathustra lived in about 1500 BC we know that because the 17 hymns (Gathas) that are written by himself are incredibly close to the Arian Rig Veda, which is dated back 1500-1700 BC. Some archeological funds support this thesis as well. The rest of Zoroastrian holy book Avesta is written in a much younger dialect, which clearly shows that they were written down by priests hundreds of years after Zarathustra's death. Zoroastrism belongs to the oldest Monotheistic Religion that had great influence on Christianity, Islam and even on Judaism. The later was done during the contact of Jewish prisoners with the Persians after their release from captivity from the Babylonians.

    In short, Zoroastianism needs to have Monotheism as a Tech prereq, otherwise that would be historically inaccurate.

    I do not agree with Abbamouse that Hinduism is that old. Hinduism is definitely much younger than Rig Veda and is written almost at the same time as Buddha was on his journey. Both Hinduism and Buddhism are based on the older Ascetism (giving up the material joy in life, no good food, no sex, no home). However Buddha improved his way and saw the middle way as the path to happiness, while Hinduism improved the old Ascetism in a different way.

    I need to analyze the techtree again. But your idea is good that after Mystism we provide a fork to 3 ancient religions. Hinduism on Polytheism, Judaism on Monotheism and Zoroastrianism on one after Monotheism, however a cheaper one so the time line is correct. I have to tweak the costs though. This might solve the Monotheism problem.

    Christianity before Feudalism? hmm that would be Monarchy...

    I am planning to apply these additional changes to the religions to make them more realistic and interesting:

    Judaism was indeed a tribal religion that became after the Jewish release from Babylon a Universal God. However the fact remains that this religions remains for the "Chosen People" everyone else than Jewish are excluded. This is also the reason why they have only 1 missionary in the game. However they shall also have a low spread rate. It looks just weird seeing after few turns so many different Jewish civilizations. But since having only 1 missionary and having a low spread rate would be unfair, so i suggest giving them a financial bonus in form of Trade Route or just plain religious commerce. I am wondering if we could make it possible that this religion once discovered and accepted, shall not have a spread rate and shall not allow any new religions within its civilization. I am sure that would be possible, since the inquisition is working too. We only need some python guys for this mod. :(

    The other change should affect Taoism that would give health instead of War wariness. Zoroastrianism should have a happiness effect with Incense like Buddhism have with stone and marble. Zoroastrianism is btw not localized. Zarathutras message was for every one and he also preached his message to everyone. He never has spoken of any "Chosen People" and restriction to his people. In those times Zoroastrianism was wide spread before Islam expanded by military force through Arabia.

    However you are right that the later Zoroastrian priests never attempted any missionary. For this reason I would also lower the spread rate of Zoroastriansm but nit as much as Judaism.

    Last one is Hinduism. Actually I know a good benefit of Hinduism. It is remarkable that in India - if you have been there you couldn't have missed it - rich and poor live door by door. It is no problem for the rich being rich and living next to poor in his trench. Neither for the poor. No jealousy nothing.

    Reason for that is the caste system, which says everything has a reason why you are born in that caste. In this case the burglary and corruption would be minimized. I would say the Hinduism Civs shall have less corruption.

    The later religions will have more chance to spread through a bit higher spread rate and missionaries. :)

    more to come....
     
  6. Ioannes

    Ioannes Chieftain

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    Houman,
    I think that the Praetorians are still over powered in 0.72.08. I think that we should either reduce their power to 6 or remove the +50% vs. Melee.
     
  7. Bolleque

    Bolleque Chieftain

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    @Houman

    Interesting idea with Hinduism. How could you address lower corruption in Hinduism? By lowering civic upkeep?

    But I do not understand this:
    I am wondering if we could make it possible that this religion once discovered and accepted, shall not have a spread rate and shall not allow any new religions within its civilization.
    Spread of other religions should not be disallowed bucause of the religion itself. It is made by Theocracy. If we make this special feature for Judaism then what is about Free Religion ;)
     
  8. Nightravn

    Nightravn Warlord

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    Houman- I definitely agree that that there is only so much actual history we can inject into this as the individual CIV's that make up the history are not what we should be basing anything off of but what we need to do is try to get the Era's to coincide with the actual time line and make the corresponding Units available "roughly" during that time. The Main problem I see is I usually have Mech Infantry and Modern Armor during the time musket man should be coming out. We probably need to stretch out the Classical Age as that is where a good chunk on our time line rests and increase most of the later techs by a good bit. It is definitely going to need allot more testing thats for sure.

    I wouldn't put Christianity onto Monarchy but move Theology up before Feudalism but towards the end of the Classical Age. We don't want to switch them as that would put Feudalism after Civil Service and having Knights before the Middle Ages is just silly.

    I agree with Ioannes..... the Praetorians dominate the early world. I start making them way before they would otherwise be historically. They probably should lose the 50% Melee or just have them come later save after Metal Casting or so. Is it possible to allow regular swords man at first and then later have it upgrade to the Praetorians a little later on?

    I am going to do up a Time line with my suggestion and will post it later.
     
  9. linedog

    linedog Chieftain

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    Regarding Hinduism: The early reigion of the Indian subcontinent was what is today called Brahmanism. It was intensely ritualistic and its' pantheon was tied much more closely to that of the Vedas. Jainism was the first serious challenge to this system. It was the Jains who gave to India the notion of vegetarianism and stringent ascetic practice. There had always been practitioners of various forms of 'forest' dwelling meditatve practice which abjured the caste system and the dry ritualism of brahmanic practice, but it was the Jains who systematized the strictest version of the asceticism in that era. They became quite popular because many were disatified with brahmanic practice .
    Buddha was a Jain monk before he rejected the extreme form of asceticism engaged upon by his fellow monks. He then founded Buddhism after changing his meditative practice and achieving 'enlightenment'.
    Both Jainiam and Buddhism became extremely popular; so much so that the brahmanic rulers of society began to feel threatened, since both religion abjured the caste system and the supremacy of the brahmins as ritualistic leaders of society. Around 200 to 150 B.C. there occurred what scholars call 'The Hindu Synthesis'. This was the incorporation of many elements of the competing systems into brahmanic practice and culture. Native Dravidian gods like Krsna were incorporated and meditative practice as opposed to ritual was emphasized.
    So we have three surviving religions from that period(there were others, such as the Ajivikas). The earliest was probably Jainism, then Buddhism, then Hinduism as it evolved from Brahmanism.
    As for Confucianism: it did not become a religion until the rise of Neo-Confucianism, some several hundred years A.D. It was before that primarily an ethical system concerned with the proper conduct of the literati as they related to and served the state. Same deal as Brahmanism. Taoism and Buddhism became too popular and so elements of both were incorporated and morphed into a Confucian religious world view.
    Unaddressed thus far, in this forum, is Sikhism. A monotheistic Indic religion arising from the clash of Islamic and Indic culture.
    If there was a way to do it, I would give the first to achieve Mysticism the choice between Zoroastrianism, Taoism and Jainism. I would tie Hinduism to Priesthood and insert a representatve of earlier religions, such as the cult of the Mother Godess or Vedic or some term describing the Sumeric/Egyptaic pantheons for Polytheism.
    My two cents.
     
  10. linedog

    linedog Chieftain

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    Well Hinduism did spread to all of Indonesia and parts of South East Asia. People forget that Indonesia was Hindu/Buddhist before it was Islamic.
     
  11. Los Tirano

    Los Tirano God-King

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    Yeah they are overpowered. But they were the soldiers that conquered numerous people. Spread the Roman empire and its influence far and wide, and kept it going in the face of adversity for centuries.

    Other civs should fight especially hard against the Roman's and not give a foot of ground to them. In multiplayer, simply ally and protect eachother.

    To get around Praetorians you need two horse archers per one Praetorian. If two civs ally this is not a hassle. Or just kill Rome as soon as you find them. Thats what i do as egypt. Since the Roman centurions were the epitome of a disciplined army, they should keep their benefits. Other civs should just have to find a way to bring them down (e.g. assassins). ;)

    @ Houman can we have their name changed to Roman Legionary. Or Romanum legionarius if we feel like getting pretentious. :lol: Historical gamers will love that.
     
  12. Nightravn

    Nightravn Warlord

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    Ok I wanted to post this link to a thread that has allot of good idea that we need to discuss for this mod. It is basically about gameplay balance which is what we need to keep in mind as we strive for realism. We have already implemented some of them and should do so with some of the others.

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=165924
     
  13. moonrunner

    moonrunner Chieftain

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    Woundered what the reasoning is behind no horses in america's. especialy with a UU of U.S. Calvery. horses are statigic and most civ's won't trade statigic resources In my experance.
    Also as the tech progression does not necerally follow the real world historical timeline concider there were horses in the america's by the 14th or 15th centery imported by spain.
     
  14. Paulk

    Paulk Humanite

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    Yea I was contemplating if it would be possible to have importable resources. Like eventually all the animals and some of the food could be transported to other parts of the world. Is it possible to make certain resources permanent after having them for a certain amount of turns? Like after 50 turns of having horses (or different resource) you actually permanently get the resource. I recognize there are some problems with this. I.e. if an empire is nearly destroyed and its last city is in the artic or something it wouldn't be able to sustain corn, a resource it’s had the whole game. Maybe make it randomly happen like a 0.1-1% chance that a resource will become permanent. To maintain realism this would seem to be necessary. This might not be possible do to coding issues. Just a thought.

    Paulk
     
  15. Bolleque

    Bolleque Chieftain

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    Yes - please rename Praetorians - even if power not adjusted :)
     
  16. Houman

    Houman TR Team Leader

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    @Nightravn

    ...part II

    I like the idea of starting all civs with no tech at all. In this case everyone is equal and the weaker civs might get enough time and food to grow faster and not falling behind. We should give this better a shot. Actually I was going to propose starting in 3800 BC but giving everyone beside the two individual techs also fishing and sailing. But this idea is even better since it slowes down everything and the adjust the time line a bit more.

    Naf has modified his OpenTech Mod for good. I am planning to include his soon if there are no issues any more. Is it actually now based on Traderoutes in his most recent version???

    Regarding all the suggestions from the fans regarding Caravel and Privateer. It would indeed make sense to make Privateer able to pass the borders but not the caravel. Caravel should also be able to tranbsport anything. Spy and explorer fits more the nationless Privateer, who can get into any border and spying around. So lets the Privateer have the special units instead of Caravel.

    Regarding the Writing and Alphabet...makes sense I never paid much attention to it. I will check it out. Moving Libraries to Alphabet makes sense and is again good for timeline.

    Regards
    Houman
     
  17. Houman

    Houman TR Team Leader

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    Jungles will take 3 times longer than Forests. I try to impllement tthe Slash and Burn, let see what i could do...

    I might remove Horde Trait and just improve teh Aggressive Trait to combat 1 to all Units instead. Otherwise we have two times more or less the same trait, it doesn't make sense. I will also change Aggressive to Militaristic, since Agressive trait has nothing to do with being aggressive.

    Praetorians will be renamed to Romanum legionarius. I will also rebalnced them as well as the Samurai.

    more to come...
     
  18. Nightravn

    Nightravn Warlord

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    I am think the no starting techs and the new tech trading model will go a long way to slow the time line down and with a few tweaks we might be able to get it on track. I am going to modify the World Map to takes those out and to remove the free worker as it is pointless to include him if he doesn't have anything to do. I will also modify the Preatorians strength and bonuses a little and do some testing and let yall know my findings.

    A few more suggestions for placement of unit time line is the Crossbow Unit which comes with macherinery but that is before the Middle Ages and is out of place. I suggest that they get put to engineering to keep them in the same time frame as the rest of that Era's units. We need to look at the Middle Ages Mod to get a better Idea of the placement of those units.

    If it is possible to seperate the Preatorian UU and swordsman then we could possibly put them at Machinery (I know it doesn't make since) or at least with metal casting (which makes more since as they need that to make armor and better equipment which was one of the key components that made them better than normal troops.)
     
  19. Samuelson

    Samuelson Prince

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  20. Houman

    Houman TR Team Leader

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    I am sorry Samuelson if you got me wrong. I don't mean to insult anyone. What I am trying to do is a realistic Mod inclusive all the religions. This Term "Chosen People" is being widley used in any pro-jewish site. Just google for "Jew +chosen +people" and read (Deuteronomy 7:6-8)

    And my friend, if I may give you an advice, look, I am a born Muslim and look what I have written about Islam's advent and how it spread most of the time with brute force. Read it here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3837138&postcount=338

    Learn to be also a bit critical about your own religion, like I do. Otherwise it makes us blind.

    Have a great day,
    Houman
     
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