[MOD] Realism:The Third Resurrection

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Paulk said:
I think caravels need to be pushed back. In the games I've been playing people have been circumnavigating the globe as early as 500 BC. In real life caravels started to be used in the 15th century and you can get these ships well before then. I think caravels need to be moved back to optics and privateers to gunpowder. This might not be perfect but I think it would create a much more realistic time line. And Caravel were for exploration not for military or settling, yet they can transport settlers and soldiers. It should be changed back to explorers, missionaries, and great people.

Paulk

I definitely want to reiterate this. What Caravels should go back to vanilla in that they can go it CIV's borders and only carry Special/Scout units. They should Not be a upgrade for Galleys. What we might want to do is add something like a Great Galley that is a little stronger and can carry 3 people for something after regular Galleys but before Galleons.
 
* Houman....yes the knees are much better. As soon as I could walk again my wife had a new honey-do list for me and that is why I have not posted for a few days.

The speed changes you suggest would be much more realistic in game aspect. At present setting you can rush most your forces across the Atlantic with just a few transports. Transports and ships are not that fast. If there is ever a WWII scenario with present ship speeds the idea of a U-boat type blockade is defeated because you could just rush right over the subs and get into friendly port without ever being attacked. I wonder if it is possible for naval units to have opportunity fire??? That is a hiding sub could fire at a enemy ship as it goes by??? I think in Civ three some land units could do that and a coastal fortress could. Probaly hardcoded or something.

I still think that caravels could carry units, maximum of two however. Ocean going caravels were every bit as big as most galleys for cargo because galleys (even merchant ones) had to carry a great number of rowers. The single square sail on galleys did not let them tack into the wind and thus to enter harbor they had to be rowed the majority of time. Same with leaving harbor.

On Caravels all that rower berthing space (even slaves had to sit somewhere) was used for cargo. Until the larger Dutch East Indiaman (Similar to Galleons but with a very shallow draft) was developed the majority of European powers used lateen type sails on all caravel type ships. The early conquestadores carried horses and military supplies on caravel type ships to the new world. The large treasure galleons were about one hundred years later roughly.

I would like to see the Privateers as a unknown nationality ship similar to what they were in Civ III. This would allow Sir Francis Drake type poaching of other nation's ships without starting an all out war. England gave a wink and nod as well as logistical support to english privateers molesting the Spanish Treasure Galleons (as long as they paid a share to English Crown of course). If the privateers were ever caught, Nobody would claim them and they would be hung.

The mod continues to improve. Everyone keep up the good work!!!.. Thanks Houman!
 
Sounds like caravels need to change. As for privateers, is it even possible to code it in so that when a privateer attacks another civs ships or destroys fishing boats war is NOT declared?

What about a penaly to relations? Or a percentage chance that the privateer will be considered from your civ and war declared. That would be perfect, 10% war chance.

And for aesthetics, can all privateers be reskinned to the complete colour of barbarians so that civ colours are not shown. Can see it now "they're just pirates, they arent MY pirates! See, no flag."


Arrrr, guv'nor thatd be the life.
 
I played the World (downloaded on Saturday) as Incas. They are far too powerful. They are surrounded by barbs but I found 4 suitable places for cities on western side of the Andes. There are maybe 5 passes through the mountains throughout the continent. It is easy to defend against the barbs - no matter how many.
Incas have no iron - but Elite Quechua who replaces Swordsman could be produced without iron. Then lack of iron is not so painful.

Maybe financial feature should be taken from them? Or stone? I completed all early wonders (including The Pyramids) supported by stone.

Again jungle clearing - I started converting the Amazonia into 'Potato Paradise' :D - too many resources there.

I have also one general observation - same as I had for other world maps I played before. The world is full of resources - everything develop too fast. :crazyeye:

I played up to 400BC. I have already discovered Christianity, my Inca caravel reached India. I was visited by Japanese.

I hope this could help you. :mischief:
 
Morning guys,

It was a tough week for me and worked very hard on the mod. A lot of new stuff are have been included and lots of fixes have been applied.

As a teaser for the new coming version (all of these is already implemented):
-----------------------------
- Assassin Mod
- UN ActualQuotes_v1.21 Mod
- ReinitInterceptorMission-v1.1
- SEVOPEDIA Mod upgrade from 1.9 to 1.93
- Added Leaderhead improvement Mod 1.0
- Added GreatPeople Mod 1.6
- Added TechWindow Mod
- Added realistic U.N. Mod
- Added Snaitf's Show Attitude Mod
- Added Disableintro Mod
- Added Snaitf's Unit Allegiance Mod
- Added Industrous Trait Mod
- Added TrainingBarracks Mod 1.1

Fixes:
- CIVIC: Universal Suffrage changed to - requires industrialism, +50% great people rate in all cities, No War wariness, instead 25% War Weariness that came originally from Universal Suff. will be given on top of Free Speech.
- StackAid (all sort of Aid promotions) has been fixed for Naval units. Units inside a ship cannot fight on water anymore!
- All Promotions have been rebalanced. The 3-tier promotions are now 15%, 20%, 25%. 5-tier promotions are 4 times same value, only the last one adds a bit more. Defence promotions fixed as well.
- Aid promotions have been set to very little to balance the game.
- Promotion Collateral damage is now possible for all mounted units. Most mounted units with heavy armor (like Knights & Cataphtracts) can cause light col.damage. Not as much as an elephant and to less units as well.
- Arabia has now the two UU.
- NEW trait! Horde trait for Mongolians and Arabs!
- Unit balancing for Persian Immortal, Arabian Camel Archer, Knights, Cataphtracts, Spanish Inquisitor, Persian Knight, Indian War Elephant, Arabian Ansar Warrior, Mali Cavalry, Rome and Greek Cataphtract, Mujahid, Crusader
- Persian Immortal moved from Archer to Hyapist
- Hyapists no longer needs copper or iron (Otherwise Axeman is superior)
- Ship and Submarine movements adjusted
- Caravel moved to Optics and changed AI to explorer (special unit cargo) (not finished yet)
- Galley now updates to Galleon or Frigate
- Private moved to Gun powder
- Minor tweaks in AI for all units

more to come....


------------------

:)

It is not finished yet and we are working hard. Especially some bugs (like the Caravel and Monotheism) are not solved yet. other improvements like the latest OpenTech Mod and PlotList Mod have not yet being included. I am waiting for the release of OpenTech (Naf please dont forget us, release it ;) )

All religions will be tuned up a bit and become more fun and realistic.
I assure you the new version is an experience like nothing you have ever seen before!!!

Houman
 
@Nightravn,
@Bolleque

Thank you for your report. It is always important to name your difficulty level as well.

For example @Superjib has tested as Monarch and reported:

I always play monarch, realistic, large map, and always finish in 1900-1950, The speed is good until middle age and too quick after... maybe we should add techologies and rise the techs costs... cause the number of turns is quite good I think !


I know Nightravn played as Americans as Noble. Whats about you Bolleque? ;)

Thanks
Houman
 
I wonder though. If the inca's had been expansionistic as you seem to be and had claimed all of America for themselves they really would be quite powerful. Plenty of resources to be exploited, and if they had also focused on research their future could have been quite different.

On the world scenario i dont think we should be worried about historical inaccuracies, because players wont stick exactly to history. They will want to take their civ and achieve unparralled greatness, and as in the case of the Inca's things can be quite different when this happens.

Can you imagine the American settlers surprise if they encountered a huge and very powerful Incan civ instead of the largely nomadic and weakly organized Indians? :lol:

Bolleque, it sounds like your in the position to invade Europe, id recommend it. Now that'll be a historical inaccuracy!
 
The Incas were not weak in that sense. They only had two problems:
- The bloody civil war between the two Incan Kings (brothers)
- Their trust in white man. Fancisco Pizarro attacked first their outer settlements. As the message arrived to the King, he didn't understand why would someone come and do that. He agreed to meet Pizarro at a camp fire. Pizarro and his men arrested him during the negotiations and surprised the massive army of the Incas with their guns. With the King captured they gave up. The Spanish put him in jail for 1 year. He learned their language and understood what they are after and promised in return so much gold and silver that could be filled in several rooms. The white men tool the treasure and killed him; the anarchy killed the rest of the Incan civilization.

In both cases Incan and Aztecs, the Spanish came in perfect timing. And if the natives didn't trust them in first place but attacked them straight away there was no way the Spanish could win the war from that distance at that time.

Houman
 
Yes the conquest of the Americas is very interesting. Those Spanish were very skilled, very deceptive, and very lucky. In regards to the Aztecs, the way Cortez manipulated the different Aztec cities to fight eachother, which made it easier for him to take the capital, is something i always found intriguing.

The next version of this mod looks good! But i have to ask, what does the horde trait give? And are you weakening the crusader and mujahid units? That would be bad...
 
:evil: Sorry - I played Noble.

I did not mean historical inaccuracy. There is rather loose relation to history.
Who made war with whom is something unique to each game, but if the globe is circumnavigated BC then the speed of the game could be adjusted.

But also from perspective of game balance Incas are too strong. They must be expansionistic. They have huge continent on their own - just to take it.
And converting the rain forest into fertile farmland is also too easy.

When Spaniards come to conquer me with knights I will welcome them with jet fighters :D

I fully appreciate your great job :goodjob: I wait for every next release to try it.

PS: I will invade Europe :evil:
 
Houman- my first game I played as the English. I have Played a second game till about 800BC so far as Roman on Noble. I am playing Noble as this I believe should be where the Balance of the game should Rest with no one having an advantage. Once you got up or even down in difficulty then things will probably change accordingly.

Here are my findings and suggestions.......

Playing as Roman I have just reach Literature so the timing is not too far of. My conclusion is that the Financial Trait is too powerful. It Needs to be adjusted to maybe give a extra commerce if there is 3 or maybe 4 already. Financial on Coast = WIN right now. We also need to do something about the Praetorians. They just Murder anything close to them in the time line and they should be coming later anyways. As Rome I bee line to iron working and then just mop up everything around me. The AI doesn't do this but for players they are to powerful. Not sure what the Fix is but one is called for. I would like to mention that the Barbs are great. In my first game they took out the Chinese with the help of the Mongols I believe and in this second one they have eliminated both the Egyptians and Arabs. They are the Only ones giving me any trouble as Roman is starting to spread to the Middle East.

As for Religion, Isabella founded only 2 religions this time with Hinduism and Judaism. I suggest that Monotheism give Judaism like Vanilla and that Meditation and Polytheism be switched or Better yet moved to the same level so once you have Mysticism you will have three choices to go for religion. Meditation and Zoroastrian Should be the cheapest, then Monotheism and then Polytheism as the most expensive as the few resources I looked up put Hinduism at 2000-1800 BC but it should have a higher spread rate whereas Zoroastrianism and Judaism should have a low spread rate as they were very localized. The other issue I have always had is Christianity coming during the Middle ages ie after Feudalism instead of before it near the end of the classical age. It should be moved up in front of feudalism, not as a requirement but just that it should be researched before it in the time line.

Couple Ideas I have for helping the Time line is to either a start off all civs with NO techs or maybe starting at 3500-3000BC. If they have no Techs then That makes the playing field even as for who founds what religion as anyone can research any path making it maybe not as realistic in terms of who founds the religion but does make it much more balanced. Besides there is some point we have to say balance is more important than realism as it is not realistic that the Persian, the English, the Americans, the Aztec, etc were in existence at the same time.

I see that you are including the Industrious Trait Mod. Is this where it changes it to being like the financial but with production. If it is then That is another suggestion I have as the Industrious Trait = Most Wonders. Changing that and Financial a little will help balance out the game. I also believe the Aggressive trait should apply to all units made by that CIV and not just the Melee ones. You also said you were going to include the Open Tech Mod but I would suggest using a modified version of his first one. I don't like the Science Rep thing and don't think the AI will use it effectively. It should be Based on Trade Routes and not just particularly with open borders. As when your people are trading with another CIV they are bound to learn of some of their Techs and will bring that knowledge back with them. It was with the Merchants that most Technologies spread in our world.

Lumber Mills should be moved to Machinery to help with the Clear cutting mentality. Now knowing what Jeff said about Caravels I tend to agree with that so they should be able to carry whatever and not go into other CIV territory. Make Privateers able to carry one Special unit and Able to go into other CIV's Borders. Be Nice if they could not have a CIV designator and be able to attack units with out starting a war but I don't know how you could pull that off. One Last thing and this is a iffy..... does anyone else think that writing coming before the Alphabet is a little strange? Especially since it allows libraries. Now I know there we early forms of writing that the Sumer, Egyptians and others used that isn't considered letters but at least we should move Libraries to the Alphabet.

Ok this post is long enough now so I will stop talking......:crazyeye:
 
Has anyone encountered problems with the Realism Mod in multiplayer games? I'm getting "Out of Sync" errors after a few turns. What should I do with this problem? I'd really like to use this fantastic mod in multiplayer. Thanks in advance for any answers.
 
@ Bollequ..... I think it is the Financial trait that is the over powering factor. I played the English and had the same experience. I also played a another game with the Ultimate Strat MOD as the Romans and at the point of the 1500's the Inca had South America and the Aztec had North America. The Inca were pretty close to me Tech wise and I had ALL of Europe, the Middle East, India, Southeast Asia and Central Asia under my belt and was starting to take the rest of Africa other than.

We probably need to up the jungle clear time also. I think they should give some production, not as much and regular forest, but should also take 3 times as long to clear.
 
Woo-hoo, horde trait :D

And thanks for toning the aid promotions down.

Los Tirano said:
Could just be the pacifist type players that are complaining. If you dont go to war, or dont defend strongly your doomed. Might be trying to save themselves.

I am a mongol warmonger if there ever was one! ;)
But the fact that (under the old aid promotions) I could add 1 archer to my stack and get +1 first strike chance, +1 first strike, +10% city defence, +10% hill defence, or 1 cavalry to get +10% withdrawal chance, +5% strength, -5% defence and so on respectively is just too much. And it doesn't really make sense for them to be that strong. Just having one unit of each type in a stack made that stack tough and versatile as hell. With a few cavalry and scouts, I was watching swordsmen withdraw across rivers and the like. I'm not a pacifist type, I love to war it up, but that just isn't right.

Also, the AI doesn't really get the Aid thing I don't think, otherwise why would it attack my mini sod's with single attackers, but do it numerous times? The AI would be sitting pretty in a city, my stack approaches, and it sends out single fighter after single fighter, but those fighters have to move one tile away from said city, and in doing so lost all those promotion bonuses. As the promotion bonuses were, they were just making things easier, or in the case of ships (which I am so glad to see fixed) the aid promotions were just all wrong.

I'm glad the promotions (in general) have come up for balancing anyway. Great stuff Houman! I can't wait to sink my teeth into the real horde! :satan:
 
I believe that jungle clearing time could be x3 without production bonus - and this is still fair and realistic.

Financial is definitely overpowered also in the vanila civ on any map.
 
Bolleque said:
I believe that jungle clearing time could be x3 without production bonus - and this is still fair and realistic.

No production bonus? One could clear kilometer after kilometer of jungle and never use any of it? I like the increased clearing time, but imho there should be a little production, not nearly so much as from forests, but...
 
Houman, can you create a random map version ?

Because i can't handle the World Map, it was very very slow since the start
 
Like your Mod a lot, but, for some reason, it plays extremely slowly for me. By the AD's, it's all but unplayable.
 
playing america on nobel
1584 and got mark V tanks but due to lack of saltpeter resourse in my teratory have no gunpowder units.

as I control a whole contenent taking up ruffly 4/5's of the map north to south
it seems really strange.
 
moonrunner said:
playing america on nobel
1584 and got mark V tanks but due to lack of saltpeter resourse in my teratory have no gunpowder units.

as I control a whole contenent taking up ruffly 4/5's of the map north to south
it seems really strange.

This is on a Random map right? The MOD is not working correctly with a random map at the moment as it is not placing the added resources. Try it with the Realism World Map as that is what it is designed for.
 
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