Perfect_Blue
Yume Senshi
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2006
- Messages
- 260
I think the Aid promotions are too powerful. Imho, they should be weakened and/or bring up the required troop numbers for each level.
[MOD] Realism:The Third Resurrection
- Thread starter Houman
- Start date
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AvianAvenger
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
- Messages
- 170
@Houman
Sorry to point this out but you've ****ed up twice..
"as a prereq" been the key words here. Neither of the above two are implemented, so Monotheism really does have no use on the tech tree... its not even a quicker way to get to preisthood.
You've also messed up here
Sorry to point this out but you've ****ed up twice..
Houman said:
"as a prereq" been the key words here. Neither of the above two are implemented, so Monotheism really does have no use on the tech tree... its not even a quicker way to get to preisthood.
You've also messed up here
Houman said:
AvianAvenger
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
- Messages
- 170
Well its only useless as long as those two pre req's aren't implemented like they are suppost to be... hope your no longer confused.
Castles should be moved to construction. With walls+castles=100% bonus that an impentrible defense. Especially since most civs wouldnt have catapults and there is no way to reduce defense. And i dont think there is that any realistic reasons for having monarchy allowing castles. I think it would be much better under construction. Maybe reduce monarchy cost further or make cottages in monarchy.
Paulk
Paulk
AvianAvenger
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
- Messages
- 170
Paulk said:
Yea forts should be buildable before walls & castles, sounds like an excellent idea to me.
MySelf said:
I think i might have made a mistake on this one, i think it may be already implemented... all those line everywhere threw me off.
Houman
TR Team Leader
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2002
- Messages
- 1,083
@Blue,
I will modify the AID promotion. If you have any suggestions how weak it shall be let me know please.
@Avian
I don't like your language. You can discuss in a civilized manner with me or not at all. I have told you and paul three times that the Text I had posted is from Abbamouse and not from me and you say I had messed up?
Here READ for yourself: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3557741&postcount=175
If there is something wrong, it is wrong in HIS implementation what needs to be ironed out by us. So if there is a bug in his implementation I will take care of it.
@paul
Regarding the Castles and Monarchy, this was done by my forerunners. I think this idea makes sense, since it was Monarchy and Feudalism that brought up the idea of a fortress like Castle. Cottages shall be moved to Monarchy since we ve deceided not to weaken them. Suburbs or Cottages didn't come that early in history as pottery but later in times of Feudalism (Monarchy).
However after analyzing the charts, you are right, the Trebuchets comes too late and Castles too early.
I suggest
- Moving up the Castle from Monarchy to Constuction.
- Moving down the Trebuchet from Guilds to Engineering.
- Moving up the Cottage to Monarchy
Regards
Houman
I will modify the AID promotion. If you have any suggestions how weak it shall be let me know please.
@Avian
I don't like your language. You can discuss in a civilized manner with me or not at all. I have told you and paul three times that the Text I had posted is from Abbamouse and not from me and you say I had messed up?
Here READ for yourself: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3557741&postcount=175
If there is something wrong, it is wrong in HIS implementation what needs to be ironed out by us. So if there is a bug in his implementation I will take care of it.
@paul
Regarding the Castles and Monarchy, this was done by my forerunners. I think this idea makes sense, since it was Monarchy and Feudalism that brought up the idea of a fortress like Castle. Cottages shall be moved to Monarchy since we ve deceided not to weaken them. Suburbs or Cottages didn't come that early in history as pottery but later in times of Feudalism (Monarchy).
However after analyzing the charts, you are right, the Trebuchets comes too late and Castles too early.
I suggest
- Moving up the Castle from Monarchy to Constuction.
- Moving down the Trebuchet from Guilds to Engineering.
- Moving up the Cottage to Monarchy
Regards
Houman
I agree with the castle/trebuchet/cottage changes those look like good realistic changes. I think there is a problem with monotheism because it isn't a prequest for priesthood. So that means monotheism isnt a prequisterite for anything. On the technology chart it has an arrow connecting monotheism to priesthood but that just means you CAN use it to get to judaism but not nessicary. Like i get what your saying but currently in the game monotheism doesn't do anything. O yea and it sorta looks like abba's religous mod died, i dont think he has had feed back showing that its faster and not nessicary to get monotheism to get priesthood.
EDIT after re-reading your last post and your post in abba's thread: I wasn't placing blame on anyone i was just saying that monotheism currently doesn't do anything and that the AI is still getting this tech and it is making it slightly unbalanced since the AI wastes turn on getting monotheism.
EDIT after re-reading your last post and your post in abba's thread: I wasn't placing blame on anyone i was just saying that monotheism currently doesn't do anything and that the AI is still getting this tech and it is making it slightly unbalanced since the AI wastes turn on getting monotheism.
Houman
TR Team Leader
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2002
- Messages
- 1,083
Regarding Aid Promotions:
This is how it is now:
Scout Aid I: +1 first strike chance, +5% withdrawal chance, +5% strength.
Scout Aid II: +2 first strike chance, +10% withdrawal chance, +10% strength.
Scout Aid III: +1 first strike chance, 1 first strike, +15% withdrawal chance, +15% strength.
Heavy Aid I: +15% strength, +5% city attack.
Heavy Aid II: +30% strength, +10% city attack.
Heavy Aid III: +45% strength, +15% city attack.
Ranged Aid I: +1 first strike chance, +1 first strike, +10% city defence, +10% hill defence.
Ranged Aid II: +2 first strike chance, +2 first strike, +20% city defence, +20% hill defence.
Ranged Aid III: +3 first strike chance, +3 first strike, +30% city defence, +30% hill defence.
Mobility Aid I: +10% withdrawal chance, +5% strength, -5% defence
Mobility Aid II: +20% withdrawal chance, +10% strength, -10% defence
Mobility Aid III: +30% withdrawal chance, +15% strength, -15% defence
Siege Aid I: +1 first strike chance, +15% city attack.
Siege Aid II: +2 first strike chance, +30% city attack.
Siege Aid III: +2 first strike chance, 1 first strike, +45% city attack.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
fixed to:
Scout Aid I: +5% withdrawal chance
Scout Aid II: +1 first strike, +10% withdrawal chance
Scout Aid III: +1 first strike chance, 1 first strike, +15% withdrawal chance.
Heavy Aid I: +5% strength, +1% city attack.
Heavy Aid II: +10% strength, +2% city attack.
Heavy Aid III: +15% strength, +3% city attack.
Ranged Aid I: 1 first strike chance, +5% city defence, +5% hill defence.
Ranged Aid II: 1 first strike, 1 first strike chance +10% city defence, +10% hill defence.
Ranged Aid III: 1 first strike chance, +2 first strike, +15% city defence, +15% hill defence.
Mobility Aid I: +5% withdrawal chance, +2% strength
Mobility Aid II: +10% withdrawal chance, +5% strength
Mobility Aid III: +15% withdrawal chance, +10% strength
Siege Aid I: +5% city attack.
Siege Aid II: +1 first strike chance, +10% city attack.
Siege Aid III: +1 first strike chance, 1 first strike, +15% city attack.
------------
Zuul knows already about the problems of Promotions. His next version will be there in 3 weeks.
Somebody reported that if Ships have Units in Cargo the Stack-Aid will still get in action and the ship becomes undestructable. It might be better if we cut lots of promotions that are faulty or do not make sense.
Please give me input about this matter.
Thanks
Houman
This is how it is now:
Scout Aid I: +1 first strike chance, +5% withdrawal chance, +5% strength.
Scout Aid II: +2 first strike chance, +10% withdrawal chance, +10% strength.
Scout Aid III: +1 first strike chance, 1 first strike, +15% withdrawal chance, +15% strength.
Heavy Aid I: +15% strength, +5% city attack.
Heavy Aid II: +30% strength, +10% city attack.
Heavy Aid III: +45% strength, +15% city attack.
Ranged Aid I: +1 first strike chance, +1 first strike, +10% city defence, +10% hill defence.
Ranged Aid II: +2 first strike chance, +2 first strike, +20% city defence, +20% hill defence.
Ranged Aid III: +3 first strike chance, +3 first strike, +30% city defence, +30% hill defence.
Mobility Aid I: +10% withdrawal chance, +5% strength, -5% defence
Mobility Aid II: +20% withdrawal chance, +10% strength, -10% defence
Mobility Aid III: +30% withdrawal chance, +15% strength, -15% defence
Siege Aid I: +1 first strike chance, +15% city attack.
Siege Aid II: +2 first strike chance, +30% city attack.
Siege Aid III: +2 first strike chance, 1 first strike, +45% city attack.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
fixed to:
Scout Aid I: +5% withdrawal chance
Scout Aid II: +1 first strike, +10% withdrawal chance
Scout Aid III: +1 first strike chance, 1 first strike, +15% withdrawal chance.
Heavy Aid I: +5% strength, +1% city attack.
Heavy Aid II: +10% strength, +2% city attack.
Heavy Aid III: +15% strength, +3% city attack.
Ranged Aid I: 1 first strike chance, +5% city defence, +5% hill defence.
Ranged Aid II: 1 first strike, 1 first strike chance +10% city defence, +10% hill defence.
Ranged Aid III: 1 first strike chance, +2 first strike, +15% city defence, +15% hill defence.
Mobility Aid I: +5% withdrawal chance, +2% strength
Mobility Aid II: +10% withdrawal chance, +5% strength
Mobility Aid III: +15% withdrawal chance, +10% strength
Siege Aid I: +5% city attack.
Siege Aid II: +1 first strike chance, +10% city attack.
Siege Aid III: +1 first strike chance, 1 first strike, +15% city attack.
------------
Zuul knows already about the problems of Promotions. His next version will be there in 3 weeks.
Somebody reported that if Ships have Units in Cargo the Stack-Aid will still get in action and the ship becomes undestructable. It might be better if we cut lots of promotions that are faulty or do not make sense.Please give me input about this matter.
Thanks
Houman
AvianAvenger
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
- Messages
- 170
Houman said:
I wasn't trying to offensive, i know you have mentioned it three times (i have been following this thread you know) ... i was trying to point out that the system is indeed broken three times.
Sorry if ive caused any offense. On the internet you would be wise not to take things too literal,.. or you will quickly find a clash of culturals. I'll try and watch the lanuage & the terribly lamo jokes
..., if you just take it easy ok 
.
Los Tirano
God-King
Alright, everyone needs to be cool. Avian, theres no need to swear at someone whose helping everyone out. So many act like smart-mouthed prepubescent teens on the web and it really is pointless. Gah! as if there isnt enough of it. Look at me, i can swear!
Houman's trying to make a grand project here, something to move civ form a 9 out of 10 to a solid 10. Theres no need to seriously hound him about something so petty. If monotheism is pointless, dont get it. I dont.
As for the aid promotions, they have really been neutered now. Sure you want to weaken them that much? +1% city attack seems pointless. Could just be the pacifist type players that are complaining. If you dont go to war, or dont defend strongly your doomed. Might be trying to save themselves.
Houman's trying to make a grand project here, something to move civ form a 9 out of 10 to a solid 10. Theres no need to seriously hound him about something so petty. If monotheism is pointless, dont get it. I dont.
As for the aid promotions, they have really been neutered now. Sure you want to weaken them that much? +1% city attack seems pointless. Could just be the pacifist type players that are complaining. If you dont go to war, or dont defend strongly your doomed. Might be trying to save themselves.
jenks
Prince
-----NAVY GEEK ALERT !-----
Love the work all y'all have put in on the mod, great work
Point to make is about submarines though, whose speed has been reduced for the mod (as 'submarines dont travel at 30knots submerged').
Submarines post WWII are actually faster than most surface ships when submerged, they are slower if they are not dived.
few examples from the Brittish Naval fleet
Subs-------------
Swiftsure - max 30knots
Trafalgar - max 32knots
Astute - max 29knots
Surface----------
Type 23 Frigate - max 28knots
Type 45 Destroyer - max 29knots
Ocean (chopper carrier) - 19knots
with larger Fleet replenishment tankers going at about 20 max
In sum - subs are just as fast as surface ships when dived, surfaced they lose 20-30%, but subs generally travel submerged anyway.
Small gripe from a former naval cadet. Keep up the good work!
Love the work all y'all have put in on the mod, great work
Point to make is about submarines though, whose speed has been reduced for the mod (as 'submarines dont travel at 30knots submerged').
Submarines post WWII are actually faster than most surface ships when submerged, they are slower if they are not dived.
few examples from the Brittish Naval fleet
Subs-------------
Swiftsure - max 30knots
Trafalgar - max 32knots
Astute - max 29knots
Surface----------
Type 23 Frigate - max 28knots
Type 45 Destroyer - max 29knots
Ocean (chopper carrier) - 19knots
with larger Fleet replenishment tankers going at about 20 max
In sum - subs are just as fast as surface ships when dived, surfaced they lose 20-30%, but subs generally travel submerged anyway.
Small gripe from a former naval cadet. Keep up the good work!
Houman
TR Team Leader
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2002
- Messages
- 1,083
jenks said:-----NAVY GEEK ALERT !-----
Love the work all y'all have put in on the mod, great work
Point to make is about submarines though, whose speed has been reduced for the mod (as 'submarines dont travel at 30knots submerged').
Submarines post WWII are actually faster than most surface ships when submerged, they are slower if they are not dived.
few examples from the Brittish Naval fleet
Subs-------------
Swiftsure - max 30knots
Trafalgar - max 32knots
Astute - max 29knots
Surface----------
Type 23 Frigate - max 28knots
Type 45 Destroyer - max 29knots
Ocean (chopper carrier) - 19knots
with larger Fleet replenishment tankers going at about 20 max
In sum - subs are just as fast as surface ships when dived, surfaced they lose 20-30%, but subs generally travel submerged anyway.
Small gripe from a former naval cadet. Keep up the good work!
Thank you for this information. Shall I increase all Subs by 30% speed?
Normal sub moves 5 -> 30% = 6 or 7 ?
Nuclear sub moves 9 -> 11 ?? too much, better stay as it is or not?
Houman
Houman
TR Team Leader
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2002
- Messages
- 1,083
Ok I have investigated the Monotheism issue. There is a problem:
Abbamouse had an awesome idea, since Meditation doesn't need Monotheism it could also be polythesim (Hinduism, Buddhism)
Monarchy needs now meditation, as a sign that the Monarchy could be based on Polytheism or Monotheism. (Again East & West)
So now the problem is what do we do with Monotheism? how can we integerate it properly?
Thanks
Houman
Abbamouse had an awesome idea, since Meditation doesn't need Monotheism it could also be polythesim (Hinduism, Buddhism)
Monarchy needs now meditation, as a sign that the Monarchy could be based on Polytheism or Monotheism. (Again East & West)
So now the problem is what do we do with Monotheism? how can we integerate it properly?
Thanks
Houman
jeffdawgfan
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2005
- Messages
- 34
In reply to Jenks comments about submarine speed.
I am retired from twenty years in US submarine service so have a couple comments on this subject. He is correct on his data on un-clasified sppeds of nuclear subs.......HOWEVER!!!
Nuclear subs do not go dashing around at flank speed!!!! If they do everyone on the other side of the ocean can hear them coming!!!! Nucelar subs rely on stealth and not speed. Speed makes noise and kills.
Most (fast attack boats) subs stalk around at a 2/3 -standard bell which is ~8-10 knots. Boomers (ICBM) even less at around 4 knots. The purpose is to remain as quite as possible an to allow for maximum effectiveness or their sonar arrays.
Older (some newer) diesel electric boats rarely could do more than 10 knots submerged.
Based on this data I have always thought the speeds of subs were already too high in Civ 4. Effectively, they should be about 1/2 the speed of surface ships. Surface ships can give a heck about making noise because with air recona nd satellites just about everyone already knows where they are anyway. Subs must remain un-detected or they have a very short life-expectancy in war-time. A sincle helocopter can ruin a submarines day if it knows where the sub is.
My opinion would be to SLOW THE SUBS DOWN !!! Actually I think all the ship speeds are too high as the amount of fuel burned by fossil burning ships at flank speed is cost and logisticaly prohibitive. Ships only do flank speeds when running, chasing, or during trials/tests/drills. Res the time they stay at about 60% of rated speed.
Just my salty 2 cents worth.
I am retired from twenty years in US submarine service so have a couple comments on this subject. He is correct on his data on un-clasified sppeds of nuclear subs.......HOWEVER!!!
Nuclear subs do not go dashing around at flank speed!!!! If they do everyone on the other side of the ocean can hear them coming!!!! Nucelar subs rely on stealth and not speed. Speed makes noise and kills.
Most (fast attack boats) subs stalk around at a 2/3 -standard bell which is ~8-10 knots. Boomers (ICBM) even less at around 4 knots. The purpose is to remain as quite as possible an to allow for maximum effectiveness or their sonar arrays.
Older (some newer) diesel electric boats rarely could do more than 10 knots submerged.
Based on this data I have always thought the speeds of subs were already too high in Civ 4. Effectively, they should be about 1/2 the speed of surface ships. Surface ships can give a heck about making noise because with air recona nd satellites just about everyone already knows where they are anyway. Subs must remain un-detected or they have a very short life-expectancy in war-time. A sincle helocopter can ruin a submarines day if it knows where the sub is.
My opinion would be to SLOW THE SUBS DOWN !!! Actually I think all the ship speeds are too high as the amount of fuel burned by fossil burning ships at flank speed is cost and logisticaly prohibitive. Ships only do flank speeds when running, chasing, or during trials/tests/drills. Res the time they stay at about 60% of rated speed.
Just my salty 2 cents worth.
Houman
TR Team Leader
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2002
- Messages
- 1,083
@Jeff
Hope your knees are feeling better.
Thanks for the information dude. I had a look on our Unitsheet. Indeed the speed of the Naval is very high compared to other units. Regarding your information, that neither the subs nor the ships actually use the full speed in daily action, I have reduced the speed to make the Naval in line with other units. They are still faster than land units though:
Changes will be:
Gaelon was 5 is now 4.
Frigate was 6 is now 5.
Line was 6 is now 5.
SUbmarine was 5 is now 4.
Nuclear Submarine was 9 is now 5.
Destroyer was 8 is now 7.
Aegis was 7 is now 6.
Battleship was 7 is now 6.
Houman
Hope your knees are feeling better.
Thanks for the information dude. I had a look on our Unitsheet. Indeed the speed of the Naval is very high compared to other units. Regarding your information, that neither the subs nor the ships actually use the full speed in daily action, I have reduced the speed to make the Naval in line with other units. They are still faster than land units though:
Changes will be:
Gaelon was 5 is now 4.
Frigate was 6 is now 5.
Line was 6 is now 5.
SUbmarine was 5 is now 4.
Nuclear Submarine was 9 is now 5.
Destroyer was 8 is now 7.
Aegis was 7 is now 6.
Battleship was 7 is now 6.
Houman
Nightravn
Warlord
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2006
- Messages
- 240
Nice changes all around Houman....
Been playing the game and will post a few tweaks to the map soon. I did find a few bugs and a couple interesting facts. Fact/Bug is that when you have allot (not sure the exact number but it's higher than 15) of units stacked together you get a "Crowded" promotion that I didn't know about. Well when you mouse over the Unit it shows "+1244064 Terrain Movement Cost" though I could still move so its not effecting game play. A few other bugs are minor text ones when you mouse over button for certain Wonders. They are "Art of War" and "Mausoleum of Mausollos." Not sure if you know about these yet and If you do sorry for reposting it.
The Main issue I have is the Tech time line. Now I'm not sure if has to do with the CIV I'm playing or not but I hit the Middle Ages Era around 500-600BC. I am now approaching 136BC and I have had Knights for a while and will have Gunpowder soon. I am playing as England/Elizabeth who has the Finical trait and am at the Noble Level. I am utterly dominating the game with double the score or my nearest rival and have a 6 or 7 tech lead on most everyone. I will play as a non Financial CIV and see if it is the same but I haven't really cottage spammed it up to much yet. Once I do and get the Kremlin it's going to be a massacre. Anyways not sure whats going on but a tweaking of the tech costs might be in order. Oh BTW all of the Religions have been founded cept for Islam and they were founded way before their actually real time. Here is the Run down........
Hinduism...........3500 BC by Isabella
Judaism............3180 BC by Isabella
Zoroastrianism...2220 BC by Isabella
Buddism.............940 BC by Barbarian
Christianity.........868 BC by Unknown
Taoism...............376 BC by Unknown
As you can see these are way off and the first three were founded by the same CIV.... who I took out giving me Three Regions which I have built 2 shrines for. Ok that's what I got for now.
P.S. Houman or whoever is in-control of the sourceforge project I think I need access and Info on how upload to it.
Been playing the game and will post a few tweaks to the map soon. I did find a few bugs and a couple interesting facts. Fact/Bug is that when you have allot (not sure the exact number but it's higher than 15) of units stacked together you get a "Crowded" promotion that I didn't know about. Well when you mouse over the Unit it shows "+1244064 Terrain Movement Cost" though I could still move so its not effecting game play. A few other bugs are minor text ones when you mouse over button for certain Wonders. They are "Art of War" and "Mausoleum of Mausollos." Not sure if you know about these yet and If you do sorry for reposting it.
The Main issue I have is the Tech time line. Now I'm not sure if has to do with the CIV I'm playing or not but I hit the Middle Ages Era around 500-600BC. I am now approaching 136BC and I have had Knights for a while and will have Gunpowder soon. I am playing as England/Elizabeth who has the Finical trait and am at the Noble Level. I am utterly dominating the game with double the score or my nearest rival and have a 6 or 7 tech lead on most everyone. I will play as a non Financial CIV and see if it is the same but I haven't really cottage spammed it up to much yet. Once I do and get the Kremlin it's going to be a massacre. Anyways not sure whats going on but a tweaking of the tech costs might be in order. Oh BTW all of the Religions have been founded cept for Islam and they were founded way before their actually real time. Here is the Run down........
Hinduism...........3500 BC by Isabella
Judaism............3180 BC by Isabella
Zoroastrianism...2220 BC by Isabella
Buddism.............940 BC by Barbarian
Christianity.........868 BC by Unknown
Taoism...............376 BC by Unknown
As you can see these are way off and the first three were founded by the same CIV.... who I took out giving me Three Regions which I have built 2 shrines for. Ok that's what I got for now.
P.S. Houman or whoever is in-control of the sourceforge project I think I need access and Info on how upload to it.
Lachlan
Great Builder of Civs !
@Houman : I don't see that you planned to pick planes working all as Gunship
I disliked the air unit model of Civ 3
I disliked the air unit model of Civ 3
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