[MOD] Realism:The Third Resurrection

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Nightravn said:
I am think the no starting techs and the new tech trading model will go a long way to slow the time line down and with a few tweaks we might be able to get it on track. I am going to modify the World Map to takes those out and to remove the free worker as it is pointless to include him if he doesn't have anything to do. I will also modify the Preatorians strength and bonuses a little and do some testing and let yall know my findings.
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It is a very good idea to remove the worker. It will also slowdown again the beginning, which is good.

Use the calculator in Excel sheet to determine the right values for Praetorian. 7 without 50% will still get rules by normal swordman with 6 and 25%.

The best value would be 6 and 50% Melee + 25% Defense vs Archer (because of Turtle formation of Legionaries) Cost 70.

A few more suggestions for placement of unit time line is the Crossbow Unit which comes with macherinery but that is before the Middle Ages and is out of place. I suggest that they get put to engineering to keep them in the same time frame as the rest of that Era's units. We need to look at the Middle Ages Mod to get a better Idea of the placement of those units.
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Very good idea.

If it is possible to seperate the Preatorian UU and swordsman then we could possibly put them at Machinery (I know it doesn't make since) or at least with metal casting (which makes more since as they need that to make armor and better equipment which was one of the key components that made them better than normal troops.)
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unfortunatelly this won't be possible. The UU are quite restricted and have to swallow an existing common unit. I know what you mean since you try to make Legionaries more expensive and exceptional.

We have many UUs in the game that had very special training similar to Legionaries, but the only way to show this is through more cost. Swordmen cost 60 and Legionaries 70. We could also go up to 75, since the values are still really good and see how AI works it out.

Regards
Houman
 
6 strength 50% melee 25% archery units sounds very nice. Cost higher than 70 may make raising roman armies a bit too hard, and slow.

Thank you very much for giving them their proper name. :thumbsup:
The reworking of the 'militaristic' trait sounds very promising.

Last question on privateers, can they be coloured to not reveal their civ origins, and attacks from them not start wars?

@Paulk, naf has some very good ideas indeed! He may have found the solution to our questions in slavery. I like the informant, but its nothing compared to the assassin.
 
Yea reading that article it makes machnery seem perfect for crossbowman.
 
Ok I stand corrected. Crossbow stays at machinery. Though if you look at the Medieval Weapons Mod they have some interesting discussion on that eras Units.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=138830

And I definitely agree that Naf as a very good Mod going. I have already pointed Houman to it and now with the civic changes (especially the slavery one) it has got even better.
 
Ok everyone I need some input here. I have been working on the World Map and want to do some specialization of the resources. What I mean is that as of right now there are allot of resources everywhere with a few places not having certain ones. What I want to do is increase the Trading of resources by limiting them to certain area. Now I want to keep this as realistic as possible BUT I also want to keep focus on balance and strategy to. When it come to Strategic Resources I believe all CIV should have reasonable access to them with the early ones ie copper and Iron being pretty close to all Starting Location. Ones like Horses, Saltpeter, and Oil are going to be placed in between most CIV's to create contention areas for them.

I have those areas pretty well placed though for horses I am still undecided whether to include them in the America's. While it is true that they were imported from Europe. It is also true that the AI tends not to trade those type resources away. So I'm torn as like a previous poster commented it is kinda silly to have a UU for the Americans that depends on a Resource that it MUST trade for. Either we give a couple horse resources to the America's or Change the American UU.

Ok on to the meat of this request.... here are a couple of suggestion I have for certain resource placement in general area's designed for Trading and what not. Some resources are going to be very common in that everyone will basically have access to them and some are going to very localized. Lets start with a list of the resources excluding the strategic ones.

Fish - Very Common
Crab - Very Common
Clam - Very Common
Sheep - Very Common
Pig - Eurasia
Cow - Common
Deer - Very common (can represent other animals like Elk and Antelope)
Wheat - Europe, Mid-East, Central Asia and Africa
Corn - North and Central America
Rice - Asia and Africa
Sugar - India and South Pacific
Bananas - Southern or Tropical area's

Gold - Try to be geographical realistic but common
Silver - Try to be geographical realistic but common
Gems - Try to be geographical realistic but common
Fur - Northern Area's

Dye - India and Mid-East
Silk - Asia
Incense - Common
Spices - Asia, India, Mid-East
Wine - Europe
Whale - Northern Atlantic and Northern Pacific
Ivory - Africa and India

New Resources

Hemp - Central Asia
Salt - Very Common
Potato - S. America
Coffee - Africa
Pearls - Asia and South Pacific
Lemon - Middle East
Cotton - India and South America

Ancient Temples - Right Out......

The Main Idea here to have at Least one type but multiple instances of a Resource in each Area (N. America, S. America, Europe, Africa, Middle East, Central Asia, India, S.E. Asia and N.E Asia and maybe the Pacific Island and Australia) that only it or one other has so that it can trade.

Let me know what yall think and please give suggestions and the reason behind them. Can this be done without throwing the realistic aspect out the window?

P.S. I moved the Spanish Setters back to the South west spot so they will have the opportunity to found at least three cities in the immediate starting vicinity. So all of the European CIV's should be able to found 3 cities, albeit close ones, before running out of room. Though the Grecian one will probably have to take out a barbarian City for its third. I also tweaked the Barbs just a hair and removed the Assyrian city and the middle one on the Korean Peninsula. The Barbs in those area's are ferocious and usually killed off a CIV. I might even remove one of the African ones too but will test some more to see how it goes. I also move the iron from under Roman and put it on the hill next to it thereby force them research the wheel also to get it. It was just too powerful for them to only have to research Bronze and Iron Working to get access to a 8 strength unit and then proceed to destroy everyone around them.
 
I think you can consider cow very common because it can be used to represent more than cows, mainly buffalo, yaks and Bison. Also do you have cow near mongolia? Because Yaks were one of the major animals they used to feed their massive armies. One more thing, what animal is used to represent llamas? Is it sheep? And wouldn't sheep produce wool which would be more of a luxury resource?

Paulk
 
@Nightravn,

Good job dude.

Here is a list of the new resources that I had placed upon Wikipedia, so the place of origin is real.

Cannabis (Himalayas, India)
Coffee (Subtropical areas of Africa, origin is from Ethiopia)
Cotton (India, South Europe, Subtropical areas of the American continent)
Lemon (India, Persia, (later Spain, Italy, Greece))
Pearls (Indonesian islands, Japan and close to any weak civ for a better start)
Potato (South America)
Salt (Sahara, Africa, most deserts)
Saltpeter (placed more or less close to every civ)

It is a very good idea to replace the origin resources as well. Having the military resources between the borders and others within is an excellent idea.
I suggest checking Wikipedia for the rest of resources to see where they came originally.

Multiple instances of one resource in one area are being already applied to Potato in South America. And it seems to work fine, they have too much potato and have to trade it for other stuff they need. So I say go for it! ;)

Regarding the Barbarians, some of them have still this extraXP from previous version. Just go into the edit mode /city mode and select the unit and see if it has any brutal XP. In that case deselect the XP. I have done this for all of them but might have forgotten 1 or 2. Some of them have still defense or combat bonus I. Especially those are close to a civ. So the civ can't send some barbs and take the city easily. But it shouldn't yet become a fort Knox, like I had done with Babylonia ;) BTW which CIV was under pressure from Assyria?

Regarding the American UU, we have two choices:
1) We have a similar problem with Arabian Camel Archers. We have no Camels in game. So I made their Camel Archer without Bonusreq but a bit more expensive. We could do the same with USCavalry. No Horse Bonus needed but more expensive. This will symbolize the cost for importing horses from Europe.

2) We get rid of USCavalry and bring back the Navy Seals?

-----

@All

Regarding Naf's Mod. Yeah definitely, he has very good ideas. I m hopping he would join our open source project. :) Meanwhile we copy all his good ideas until he surrenders and join us voluntarily. hehe

The OpenTech is definitely in and I will have a look on his slavery civic etc.

Regarding Privateers I would love to make them hide their Civ origin. But there is no way I could it in the XML file. :( The only way to make them distinguishable to normal ships is making them ignoring the enemy borders. I know not enough...It might be possible doing that in Python...but we need more Python experts here.

Lamas are from the same family as sheep. Yeah we could use them in S.America. I know it seems now that S.America is too rich regarding the natural resources (it really is in reality too) but with making the Jungle 3 or 4 times longer to cut down and reducing the production for Jungle, the Incas will have a much harder time to develop than it is now.

Have fun
Houman
 
For privateers is it possible to make them more like barbarians. Like once you build them they become barbarians with an alliance with you and they just go do their own things. Because I don't think the government had much control over the individual privateers. Is that codiable? I don't know if that would even work but you could try it see how it plays.

Paulk
 
Hey All I forget to mention the Ancient Temple Resource which I particularly don't like and find it not very realistic as a resource. A specialized building maybe but not a resource. If there aren't any objections I will remove that one and start cleaning up the rest so it is not overwhelming.

@ Paulk - I was thinking the same thing but want other people's suggestions so I am not pushing just my Ideas into this. As for Sheep being a Luxury, I would classify it more as mainstay than luxury as most people use that for clothing after just using animal skins keeping it in line with being very common and which actually made Fur a luxury.

@ Houman - Thanks just doing my part. As for Assyria I believe some of the problem is having 3 barb city in such close proximity that is causing the issues. I have seen both the Egyptians and the Arabs get wiped out. So I removed the Middle one to make it a tad easier. Now with us removing the starting Techs and beginning workers it is going to make it pretty rough to start as the all the Barbs start with at least one Archer and in some of the more strategic places I replaced the warrior with a archer. I did not go above 2 units so it shouldn't be impossible to over take these cities but it will need some testing.

We really need to get that tech trading model in so we can test the time line with it and no techs. Not to rush ya or anything... ;)
 
@Paul, nice idea, I have to see if this is doable...but low chance :(

@Nightravn

I have just added PlotList Button Enhancement v0.95 Mod. One of the toughest Mod to implemend I would say. Hopefully it works cross the fingers.
You know that you can download the most recent version with all these Mods and fixes I mention here from SourceForge and test it already. ;)

All existing good Mods are included. Now to the new Mods from Naf.
I will merge soon the OpenTech mod and slavery...

Regarding sheep, in any top Iranian Restaurant you would only get Lamb meat and never beef. Lamb rules mate! Is much softer than beef. ;) And you want stop eating lambs in CIV and use their wool instead? tz tz hehe

Greetz
Houman
 
personaly I'd rather you keep the u.s. calvery even if cost more. as a UU its more useful then the seals which I never used anyway.
 
I do not know if this was discussed in this topic but there was a mod for civ3 (rhye's if I could recollect) that introduced Mustangs. It worked same as horses but revealed by some very late technology. This simulated the effect that horses were available in Americas but very late. Then US Cavalry could stay.
 
That is an interesting and doable way to add resources to the later part of the game. Definitely something to think about and discuss. Make Mustangs which is just a renamed horse resource appear at the Military Tradition which allows calvary. We could use this for some other resources if we want to represent resources migrating. We could name the the first one something like "Original Cotton" and the other "Imported Cotton" though that would make things ALLOT more complicated which is not going to be a good thing.

Maybe just running with Houman's Idea of them Not requiring a resource but being more expensive is the way to go. I also agree that the American Cav needs to stay as the American Seal just comes to late to be an effective UU.

And I agree with ya Houman........ Rack of Lamb Rulzzzzzzzzz!!!! :)
 
Houman said:
I am sorry Samuelson if you got me wrong. I don't mean to insult anyone. What I am trying to do is a realistic Mod inclusive all the religions. This Term "Chosen People" is being widley used in any pro-jewish site. Just google for "Jew +chosen +people" and read (Deuteronomy 7:6-8)

And my friend, if I may give you an advice, look, I am a born Muslim and look what I have written about Islam's advent and how it spread most of the time with brute force. Read it here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3837138&postcount=338

Learn to be also a bit critical about your own religion, like I do. Otherwise it makes us blind.

Have a great day,
Houman
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After thinking about it, I would have to say your are mainly right. Actually, Jews are like a bunch of different religions because reform, conservative, and orthadox Jews all have completely different beliefs. I, for instance, do not even think that the Bible is a litteral story but one wrote by a human being that is a group of moral stories. Probably about 1 third of all Jews would agree with me on that one.
Regarding the gameplay of this mod, playing as France on your world map I had 10 population points in Paris in about 2500 B.C.(Playing on Monarch Difficulty). This happened mainly because of the great abundance of recources. I would strongly recomend cutting down on many of the recources in Europe, to slow down growth.
 
Houman said:
I am sorry Samuelson if you got me wrong. I don't mean to insult anyone. What I am trying to do is a realistic Mod inclusive all the religions. This Term "Chosen People" is being widley used in any pro-jewish site. Just google for "Jew +chosen +people" and read (Deuteronomy 7:6-8)

And my friend, if I may give you an advice, look, I am a born Muslim and look what I have written about Islam's advent and how it spread most of the time with brute force. Read it here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3837138&postcount=338

Learn to be also a bit critical about your own religion, like I do. Otherwise it makes us blind.

Have a great day,
Houman
Click to expand...
After thinking about it, I would have to say your are mainly right. Actually, Jews are like a bunch of different religions because reform, conservative, and orthadox Jews all have completely different beliefs. I, for instance, do not even think that the Bible is a litteral story but one wrote by a human being that is a group of moral stories. Probably about 1 third of all Jews would agree with me on that one.
Regarding the gameplay of this mod, playing as France on your world map I had 10 population points in Paris in about 2500 B.C.(Playing on Monarch Difficulty). This happened mainly because of the great abundance of recources. I would strongly recomend cutting down on many of the recources in Europe, to slow down growth.
 
Samuelson said:
Regarding the game play of this mod, playing as France on your world map I had 10 population points in Paris in about 2500 B.C.(Playing on Monarch Difficulty). This happened mainly because of the great abundance of resources. I would strongly recommend cutting down on many of the resources in Europe, to slow down growth.
Click to expand...

I am working on the Map and trying to get it balanced. Though with the removal of starting techs and the worker it is going to slow the the time line down and you must remember that Europe is pretty pack that a CIV can only get about three cities in their respective area's so that has to represent allot of people.

Couple changes I have did is to but the Assyrian Cities back and Remove the Barb city Lydia. Greece was getting too much pressure from them so they were not able to expand to their respective three cities. And am reworking the resources at the moment.
 
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