[MOD] Realism:The Third Resurrection

[Hian the Frog]

To Mrakvampire,

Cool, stay cool. It's a game, only a game . You could think that T-34 are better than Sherman, it's your choice. As an old crewman (sergeant gunner) in a "Leclerc" in the French Army, i had studied and read MANY books of modern warfare. Until 1943, the Russian Army used his tank in an inapropriate way. E.g: At Kharkhov, in 1942, they were destroyed by Manstein's SS Korps because of lack of support by tactical bomber and infantry, and (above all) better tactics. It's not the tank himself that was weak (it was among the best with his speed, his powerful main gun,...) but the way to use it, the training of the crewmembers, the tactic of massive assault without support....Joukov, Timoshenko,Popov,...were among those who transform this weak but numerous army in an real and dangerous one. They changed the way of thinking. Every body could look at "Operation Bagration " in 1944. They destroyed the German "Center Army Group" in one well planned and executed campaign...
You could also think what you want about "the obsolete F-15 or F-16", there is NO AIR FORCE in the world wich can oppose th USAF/US Navy Carrier Air Group one in a classical campaign.
To conclude, don't be so aggresive. We are all here for fun, to play A GAME.

The Frog.

 

[p2parchive]

Can someone please tell me where to find cache folder, it is not where you say for me .. Im really confused as I have looked everywhere

Thanks

 

[israfil]

Greetings all,

So the conversation about realism, game balance, unique units, and historical accuracy (especially of russian civ) definitely strikes a chord with me. I came to find this mod whilst looking for a new Balancer mod, which made CivIII worth playing for me. One nice feature of the Balancer was the addition of scads of unique units - even an RCMP for the Canadians. At any rate, the basic notion I have is that as we move forward, we will add civs, and add unique units for the civs - maybe not in the world map, but certainly playable in generated maps, which I mostly play myself. I would love to see as many as 10 unique units, or at least national variants for the main units to provide flavour. They may or may not be different in capabilities, though Civ IV is flexible enough, especially with promotions, to allow some real effect to nationally flavoured units.

For example, I see no reason why a Canadian civ wouldn't have a CF-18, the US have FA-18 and F-16, the Russians the SU-37 and various MIGs, etc. These might have varying promotions and levels, and be more or less expensive. But basically I found the Balancer to be wonderful in this regard - but such things take time and effort, and we're only really starting on this mod.

Likewise with Technology. I would love to see twice the number of technologies, with more interdependencies, but scaled back in cost so that you get roughly the same benefits at the same game time. So eventually, you end up with lots of optional tech with small but strategic benefit that are not essential to move forward, with lots of "mandatory" tech that's cheaper, but there's more of it to get through, and hte benefits are spread more thinly across a wider array of tech. More choice, more flexibility, more variety between civs.

Then there are civics. I can see lots of ways to change civics to be more interesting and flexible, including adding a whole new civics branch for technology focus, where you get all options immediately, or can unlock them fairly early that provides bonuses and penalties to varying types of technologies. So if you focus on military tech/buildings, it costs slightly less, but other tech/buildings cost more. If you focus on civil infrastructure, certain techs and buildings cost more. The balancing act would be that if you focus on military tech to get cheaper technological advancement, you then pay more to build those granaries and cottages, which can be a very detrimental factor. This one needs a lot more thought and game balance, and you can see how much work it would be, with a lot of coding, UI and XML changes. It merely illustrates how early we are in the development of Civ and the Realism Mod.

Anyway, keep piling on suggestions, and if you're a good python coder, just implement your feature in a mini-mod and submit it to the developers here. If you submit code, your ideas will be taken that much more seriously.

Cheers,
Israfil.

 

[Nightravn]

@Mrakvampire - Like Froggy suggested the units are representative of something a little but more dynamic than just a single fighter but if you want to get technical the F-22 is the Best Fighter in the world but if we included that their would be no challenge.

I believe we have included the T-34 though I could be mistaken as I have got any of my games to the modern era and Houman is in charge of that area.

As for your other issues well I agree that Scotland Yard should be changed to a more generic name like intelligence agency which it is representative of though as it's name is not really accurate either as it is a police agency like FBI where the Spy making should be M6,CIA and Kremlin ie intelligency agency. Though I think you might be taking things a little to personally and I don't think the the general game is a complete depiction of Realism as the Kremlin is a World Wonder that gives a discount on buying thing, like that is what it purpose was in the real world.

With your reference to Hollywood and Bollywood.... would there be A Bollywood with out Hollywood to being with? Do I necessarily agree that they are World Wonders..... no not really but we work with what we got. The wonders that we are working with have come from others so if you know how to make them go ahead and we will consider them. I personally like the Sydney Opera House and the Petronas Towers idea that LT suggested please remember that THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS.... if you have some suggestion please post them and they will be discussed.

The Reason we included Saltpeter to the game as that while yes it is a common resource, we wanted to add a little more strategic aspect to the later units. We thought it strange that earlier units require a resource to be built but not gunpowder ones and then you get into modern time and they need resources again like oil or aluminum. How many wars were fought over Copper or Iron deposits? Everything we are trying to do is based off three things Realism(as is feasible), Balance(as much as possible), and Strategy to keep the game as FUN as possible which is why we play it.

 

[Nightravn]

Can someone please tell me where to find cache folder, it is not where you say for me .. Im really confused as I have looked everywhere

Thanks

If it is not where we have said then I don't know what to tell ya except to do a search for it with the search feature in windows.

 

[Los Tirano]

Yeah israfil, it would be great to see national variants of the main units. If we wait long enough we will even have many of the skins delivered to us because others are already working on them.

 

[Mrakvampire]

To Mrakvampire,

Cool, stay cool. It's a game, only a game . You could think that T-34 are better than Sherman, it's your choice. As an old crewman (sergeant gunner) in a "Leclerc" in the French Army, i had studied and read MANY books of modern warfare. Until 1943, the Russian Army used his tank in an inapropriate way. E.g: At Kharkhov, in 1942, they were destroyed by Manstein's SS Korps because of lack of support by tactical bomber and infantry, and (above all) better tactics. It's not the tank himself that was weak (it was among the best with his speed, his powerful main gun,...) but the way to use it, the training of the crewmembers, the tactic of massive assault without support....Joukov, Timoshenko,Popov,...were among those who transform this weak but numerous army in an real and dangerous one. They changed the way of thinking. Every body could look at "Operation Bagration " in 1944. They destroyed the German "Center Army Group" in one well planned and executed campaign...

Do yo speak about Sherman or T-34? If you speak about why Russian army was retreating in early years of war, it's only because that it was not ready for the war. Soviet army lost 75% or fighters in first week (!!!) of war. It simply could not support them by bombers... If you read a lot of books you should know this, or you've read wrong books?
And by the way read about Kursk and it's greatest tank's battle in the history...

You could also think what you want about "the obsolete F-15 or F-16", there is NO AIR FORCE in the world wich can oppose th USAF/US Navy Carrier Air Group one in a classical campaign.
To conclude, don't be so aggresive. We are all here for fun, to play A GAME.
The Frog.

And you can still think that F-15 or F-16 are better than Su-37.
Do you know about China? It's army is about 2,5 million soldiers. And in war time thay can quickly create army of about 150 mln. soldiers.
It's nearly a whole population of USA. Do you know about US war doctrine? It states that in imaginable war with China only option is massive nuclear strike. It's because US army could not even hope to defeat army of China if there will be major conflict...
But is it becuse of ultra-modern equpment? Or maybe becuse of brilliant generals? No. It's becuse of quantity and morale. China's soldier is more willing to die for his country and leader than american soldier.

"On air show MAX-2003 the Russian fighters for the first time competed in the sky with the American colleagues. American pilots F-15 have recognized, that highlight of the program became the newest Russian fighter Su-30."

F-15 can not make extreme maneuvers such as "Bell".

It was in 2003. Su-30 was a fighter of 4th generation. Su-37 is a fighter of 4++ generation.
So, you still may think about F-15 and F-16 as very good fighters, it's your right. It's pointless discussion. It's as if you would claim that M16 rifle is better than AK-47 (AK-74).

So my suggestions to this mod:

1. Make nuclear weapons totally destroy cities with 10 or less population.
2. Remove Cossacks and add some modern units to Russia.
3. Remove F-15 and make American marines more powerful, or make Americal carriers more powerful.
4. I do not know how to do it, but I suggest to increase upgrate speed of hamlets, villages to towns in modern era. It's not realistic to see that village needs 50 years to become a town in modern times.
5. Add more modern wonders of non-US origin.
6. I thought about gradually increasing an agressiveness in AI in industrial and modern era. And make that Oil can dissapear randomly with some slight chance (to simulate an increasing rate of need of oil)
7. Create "Partisan" unit. As it was in Civ 2, they would emerge when a city is captured (for example 1 unit for 4 population). Partisans will have 18 Strength, and gain bonuses in hills and forests. Concept of Partisans was great, and I think it should be restored.

 

[jeffdawgfan]

So much ado and arguing about who had the best whatever.

Yes the T-34 was better than the Sherman and The PZ IV. Arguably better than the Tiger Tank which was basically a beefed up PZ IV with more armor and a 88mm vs 75mm gun. The German Panther was better than all of them but went into production so late in war that it never really had a chance to earn a reputation.

The German Type XX U-boat was far superior to all other submarines even into the early 1950's.

What I am getting at is that for unique units it is not just the machine but how they are used in combat and what training and tactics a country uses.

What makes the F-15 / F-16 so good is not necessarily the machine (although they are quite impressive) but the tactics in how they are used. The US makes extensive use of Airborne Radar/Control planes (AWACS) to control and vector its planes in combat. A sparrow cannot take off without being noticed by the AWACS and interceptors vectored in. The AWACS reduce the "fog of war" and make the fighters that much more effective. Althought the SU-27 is a good plane, poor tactics and training reduce its effectiveness.

So don't get so hostile or short with each other over who had the best what. Historically, mediocre units earned a reputation as a superior unit due to the sucess of the country uning them.

For example, the Israel took a bunch of leftover WWII era tanks/weapons, upgraded the guns, and trained so effectively that they were able to kick butt on Arab forces in the 56/67/73 wars. The weapons were not that mcuh better than the Arab forces, just better training, tactics, and motivation. (Amazing how much better you fight when your country is in danger of being overrun).

Anyway....Houman and company are doing and excellent job and I don't think they purposely slight or use propaganda for any country.

 

[Nightravn]

@Los Tirano - I just came across the thread on Religious Victory Condition and saw that you had posted in it. Why didn't you mention this before? This is definitely something we should include in this Mod considering all the added religious stuff we have added to it. Shame, Shame on you...

In all seriousness this is definitely something we need to look at. I followed the link in that thread and want to know more about what Spocko has done with the mods he uses as having religion's founded by people and not tech is a very interesting and realistic concept.

You mentioned that you already use it with our mod so is it compatible by placing is custom assets or what. please tell how you are using it so I can test it with our Mod.

Houman and Israfil - we need to look at this for inclusion in the Mod.

 

[unfriendlyghst]

sorry mistake.... please remove. thanx.

 

[snafusmith]

It's because US army could not even hope to defeat army of China if there will be major conflict...
But is it becuse of ultra-modern equpment? Or maybe becuse of brilliant generals? No. It's becuse of quantity and morale. China's soldier is more willing to die for his country and leader than american soldier.

As a member of the US Air Force I apparently am, 'less willing to die for his country and leader.' WOW. It's OK to discuss which aircraft is better or worse based on technical facts, but saying things like that can lead bad places. Talking like that can get ugly really fast if you're not carefull. Please watch what you say, and keep your opinions to yourself.

Comments and discussion like this just tends to muttle a great thread/mod like this. I can only hope some people learn where to draw the line.

 

[Los Tirano]

Ha! Yeah i always have religious victory enabled when i play this mod so i tend to forget it isnt actually a part of realism yet. See it slightly edits the game so that it is always in effect. Change the mod and it is still a part of civ. So, we could add the mod or other players could just do what i do.

This is why i asked for the egyptian pantheon to be included as a new religion. So i could really convert everyone to worship and obey the Pharaoh as a living God.

 

[Hian the Frog]

Thx to Jeffdowgfan and Snafusmith for their comment. Clear and wise, as adults can write and think.....

@ Houman and his fellowship.

As i told you few days ago, i tried Japan.
I built/conquer cities in Japan, Taiwan, all the main islands of Indonesia and New Papaousia. I feeled very suprised to found no oil. Nothing in Indonesia. Very problematic when you know that Japan attacked this Dutch Colony in 1941/1942 to acquire some. A little mistake on your map. I think that you could also add some aluminium and spice.

The Frog.

 

[Spartan117]

wonders are meant to be balanced, having majority of the modern wonders be of US orgin is not realistic and it has nothing to do with balance but realism...that is sort of a different type of balance, balance of names and types of world wonders represented and balance in gameplay/// unbalance = nofun....game=fun..... unbalanced game= no fun...
more wonders of non us origin should be added though

yea that would be amazing to have every civ have their own version of military units..by the way werent minutemen during american revolution and if so they should replace musketmen and not riflemen.. when i think of riflemen i think of civil war era..
if there are naval mines there should be land mines as well,... even if guerilla units arent practical.. is there a way to code a unit that while defending causes collateral damage???.. this would be perfect for naval mines which are in the mod already and be perfect for land mines

addition of mercenary mod, i never played it but it seems intriguing ... its rated high and people seem to like and it adds to realism

more maps would be good because i find it difficult to trying to place resources so that it will be balance, possible,hopefully a little smaller then realism map... i cant play the realism map because it will get extremely slow and unplayable...

im sorry to be asking but any idea when this will be compatible with 1.61?? or are you guys trying to implement new things in mod in the same version that will 1.61 compatible...wow as more suggestions added this mod will be crazy... in a good way though

 

[Pisces]

Hello. I'm new to posting but have lurked on these forums for years now. I started Mods with TetTurken for civ3 and didn't really switch over to civ4 full time until your mod. Not kissing up just spoiled with world map play and this mod works wonderfully with that one little artillery glitch the only thing to ever annoy me.

I love how the AI plays on this map. I was stunned earlier when the barbarians were coming at me with elephants and trebuchets when I had only swordsmen and longbows. I stared in amazement when my capitol went into disorder out of the blue and I had no idea why. Once I learned how to use the assassins and keep my informant guarding my capital, I loved it. I like how the world is massive but not so big you get bored trying to take it all over. I've played many different civs so far deep into the modern ages and my play style is extremely agressive.

I offer my input only because it was asked for. I demand nothing and only appreciate your efforts. I pay you nothing so I offer my sincere thanks. It is all I can offer.

Rome- (1.09) Much better balance to all other civs now that the legions were cut back. Moving the iron was good since now Rome can get more of a bonus from it. The new version seems to have cut France back a lot. In earlier versions one had to run a stack of warriors to Paris and just overpower them before they ran you over with chariots. Europe has become a lot more level but easily conquered with the right strategy. The organized trait is my favorite since it allows for better empire building in the early game.

Suggestions: None

Germany (1.00) I ran out of money. I grew too quickly then fell way behind. It was an odd game where the barbarians managed to take out Egypt, Persia, Arabs, China and Mongols. They had Musketmen coming at me three turns into AD. I quit the game unable to beat back the barbarian hordes. Germany had the easiest start point building 4 extra cities, massive production and easy horses near Warsaw. Russia was a pushover doubling my territory before I even got swords.

Suggestions: Move the Helsinki barb city down to Riga. Put in a barb city in Amsterdam. This will force the french to build south and keep Germany down to 3 cities instead of 5. Germany is just too well positioned and can stop the Romans from ever having a chance with one settler.

Japan (1.09) The organized trait is very powerful here. I had all of Malaysia, Indonesia, Australia and New Zealand built up with only 2 barbarian cities in remote spots to kill. Australian barbs were pathetic and I don't even count them. China grew very quickly so it was easier to go east into the Americas. No real challenge.

Suggestions : Make Australia a raging horde. Not cities per ce but wandering barbs of higher class than warriors. Limit easy Japanese growth to the Phillipines then make them start to earn it.

India (1.09) Fun. I had 9 goodie huts all in easy range so I was given an unfair advantage. I had way too much room to expand. Karachi, Bombay, Lahore and Calcutta were founded and had walls before the first barbarian showed up from the south. Only the Persians had come to visit and the mongals and chinese knew of me since I'd taken their huts. Elephant seemed more of a fluff UU than any real advantage but I didn't really need them. The fast worker saves a ton of money and never goes obsolete.

Suggestions: cut the # of goodie huts. India is supposed to be powerful and toning it down would be a shame. Playing it would offer less of a challenge but playing against it is fun.

China (1.09) I went broke even though I tried to grow slowly. Khan declared war VERY early on so I had to make him say uncle. Having his capital on a hill was harsh. While dealing with him the Japanese came to play. By the time I was finishing off Khan and paying off Japan I was at least 8 techs behind India. Maybe I just had a bad run but I found China painful.

Suggestions : I didn't give it a fair chance. I can't comment.

American (1.00) Boring. I had the Azteks whipped and the Incas giving tribute before any European players accidently crashed into my half of the planet. A forbidden palace in Mexico and Versaille near Rio and I had the game won a thousand years before it finally ended.

Suggestions: Put the barbs back to pre-1.00 level. The AI might not be able to handle it but players can. If the AI wipes out as America, people can use North America as a colonialism piece.

Egyptian (1.09) Easiest of them all. The archer and chariot are god-like in the ancient era. The chariots destroy all of Africa and one settler in the Suez cuts the continent off for a good 2000 years. Money is the only real obsticle. Growing so quickly so soon leaves razing the barbarians the only option. The Nile gives huge cash rewards however so keeping Timbuktu and the Mediterranian cities is more than do-able until your income starts to grow after monarchy/currency. From there it's just slaughter the world

Suggestion: up the cost of the chariot. A simple stack of 5 gives you the middle east. 5 more gets you all of north africa. Zimbabwe is the only real challenge to the south. Nubia is so close it's a must kill. Either move Assyria down to Jerusalom or add a third city there. A player will have to take out Nubia to grow and Saladin will get a break. Barbs always seem to make a bee-line for the number one player and Egypt is always number one in the ancient era.

Russian (1.00) Financial got all of the wind ripped out of it's sails. Russia's big advantage historically and in these games was it's easy spread deep into asia. With cash flow issues, that is simply not possible. You can plop one city down near Kyiv and take out Tartars and Alans then you are done until the monarchy/currency combo. You create war units then disband them as you make them since you can't turn off city production and you can't afford to keep them. Once you started getting income, the European powers with AI bonuses come right at you. I had Germany declare war out of the blue despite being friendly. Two turns later Khan came to visit with a nice stack of Keshik Archers. I was done before I had a chance.

Suggestions: I probably had a bad game. Russia has more barbarians around it than any other civ outside of Africa yet can't conquer them and deal with the upkeep. Either allow "wealth" at an earlier time even if it's reduced or move Helsinki to Riga/St. Petersburg area. That area has much better bonuses and can help Russia grow as it did historically, from the Baltic inward all the way to the Pacific.

France: (pre-1.00) Too easy. Chariots. Chariots. Chariots. Paris was stupid huge for that time. It's been toned down in 1.09 and I'll try it again.

the rest of the civs have traits that just turn me off but I'll give them a whirl if you want me to. I'm blessed with too much time on my hands the next few weeks now that school is out and my job hasn't started up yet. Let me know. I'm so sorry this got long but I think you wanted details.

 

[Los Tirano]

Well Pisces your a serious civ player, thats for sure . I regards to Australia, you said "Make Australia a raging horde. Not cities per ce but wandering barbs of higher class than warriors. Limit easy Japanese growth to the Phillipines then make them start to earn it."

Australia is easy to take and historically it really was, only have the tyranny of distance to contend with. There should be barbs in Australia but should not be anything above native warriors or native scouts. Seriously, swordsmen or axemen in Australia would be a joke and a gross inaccuracy. As ridiculous as putting in cities with aquaducts and theatres.

In regards to egypt it really does have a great bonus early on, and it contends with the barbarians next door just as it did in history. However, if players want to build war chariots en masse and not focus on temples and wonders like the egyptians did i dont think they should be punished or restricted form doing so.

I do now definately get the urge to play that world map again. Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere anyone?

 

[Mrakvampire]

As a member of the US Air Force I apparently am, 'less willing to die for his country and leader.' WOW. It's OK to discuss which aircraft is better or worse based on technical facts, but saying things like that can lead bad places. Talking like that can get ugly really fast if you're not carefull. Please watch what you say, and keep your opinions to yourself.

If you were an _adult_ in your opinions, you would not take offence at that statement. The purpose was not to offend military men of USA, it was simple ascertation of the fact.
For example, I hate terrorism. But I can state, that those terrorists are more willing to die for their country, or their ideals, than soldiers of China, or soldiers of USA, or maybe soldiers of Australia.
It is simply matter of morale. And it is the objective factor. Soldiers of Poland in war with Germany surrendered by whole battalions, and soldiers of Finland in war with the USSR did not surrender. It is not the insult of Poles, it is the fact. Historical, cultural and religious factors always influenced morals of the soldiers. Western civilization and culture always stated that individual person is more than a community, but in Eastern civilization and culture it's different. It's traditions, culture, religion states that community is more important than single person. That's why Chinesse soldiers are more willing to die than you or me.

 

[snafusmith]

If you were an _adult_ in your opinions, you would not take offence at that statement. The purpose was not to offend military men of USA, it was simple ascertation of the fact.

I think you're missing the point that saying something like that is a fact is inherently juvenile and offensive. I'm done with this, and I sincerely hope you are too.

 

[Drogear]

Mrakvampire: Thanks for providing me with the laugh of the day!

I know you can’t be serious with that 12-year-old argumentation.

Who said Russians did have a sense of humour

...or wait, are you serious?

 

[dimaliok]

Is it ok for you guys if I release the file in RAR instead of ZIP?

WINRAR is shareware and makes the file 2 MB smaller than ZIP, which is good for my bandwidth, when so many are downloading the mod.

What do you think?
Thanks
Houman

Yes its go0od i only have winRAR and suffit