[MOD] Realism:The Third Resurrection

[Pisces]

Australia is easy to take and historically it really was, only have the tyranny of distance to contend with. There should be barbs in Australia but should not be anything above native warriors or native scouts. Seriously, swordsmen or axemen in Australia would be a joke and a gross inaccuracy. As ridiculous as putting in cities with aquaducts and theatres.

In regards to egypt it really does have a great bonus early on, and it contends with the barbarians next door just as it did in history. However, if players want to build war chariots en masse and not focus on temples and wonders like the egyptians did i dont think they should be punished or restricted form doing so.

I just come from the camp that focusses on game play even at some cost to realism. I know that there were no modern day Americans in North America in 3000 BC. There were also no French or Germans. I suggested making Australia with a couple dozen axemen perhaps to stop Japan from putting a lone archer in the hills letting everything wipe out on it then making six or seven cities that are basically untouchable there. With the caravel moving back, they would only need to put something on Sumatra to cut off the entire region from literally everyone. China never makes a move over water when they have so much land to go after around them first.

I brought up Egypt because in all but one of my games they are consistantly in first place for the entire first half of the games. If the AI can dominate with them easily enough, a player would be untouchable. This gives the Arabs no chance at all. A second barb city would give players of Egypt a clear choice. They can go south to grow or they can go east. They could not afford to do both. As it stands now with the Nile, they can expand to 7 cities without taking a penalty large enough to kill their growth. No other civ without organized can match that. Historically the Egyptians never left north east africa with any degree of success. I'm not saying cripple them. I'm saying give them a choice. Africa or the middle east in the very early stages. Just not both.

 

[Houman]

wow so much discussion.

@All thanks for participating and giving your suggestions.

@Mrakvampire
This is an international open source project. Our team is made of an Iranian, American, Canadian and a German. No one is here trying to push American wonders. You guys are just playing the game and have no idea how much work it is to balance things out, skin units and buildings, balance the technologies and start positions for each civ etc. We have right now concentrated mainly on Ancient and Classical era. Since A bad start for a civ means the Civ is behind and remains always cannon fodder. The later stages are not well balanced or in other words they are closer to Vanilla. Thats why we might have certain flaws as the T34 values, or Hollywood wonders etc.
All units however, even the modern ones, are getting more and more there were we wanting them. Through your suggestions we could improve the mod and thats what we said from beginning.

It is a bit unfair, the way you have started in bashing the mod as so-called "realistic" because of this or that only to make us listen to you. This is not very mature. We have and will listen to every single voice here. And if we dont respond doesn't mean that we have overlooked it. (e.g. the guy who mentioned lack of Vikings cities and the typo of Heliski instead of Helsinki ) Nothing is forgotten.

I really would suggest to not make this political and take it personal. As I said our Team is so international, why should we be pushing US- Wonders here? We have heared your voice and will think about changing them in the next versions. And please type down in a bit more friendly way. It is just a game and we try to make it realistic, however balance is more important and fun shall not be forgotten.

@Pisces, Thank you very much for your very constructive report. This will be indeed very helpful. Before the Project went opensource an I was in charge of everything, the Japanese have been pretty weak. I gave them more fish to make them stronger, obviously I gave them too much bonus. I will speak to Nightravn and nerf them a bit otherwise the Pearl Harbor would be 1000 years earlier. hehe

Regarding all other reports, yeah you are right. Most of the experienced behavior has a reason, like russions have more barbs because of their land availability in the north and growth. etc. However al your points are valid and will help us to refine the process. The Keshiks and Mongolian Horse archers are now 25% more expensive than before. It might slow down the Mongolians a bit hopefully. We will see. If they still are too tough, we will nerf them a bit. Regarding the Indian Elephant. It is really much tougher than normal elephants and makes more colletral damage. Are you sure it is useless and need rework?

Everyone else, thank you for your support, and yes the new patch is soming and it will be more than just a 1.61 compatible patch. It will add new stuff and remove some other stuff. We also will be trying to redo all the python codes to make the game cleaner and faster.

@all
Meanwhile don't be such a wuss and upgrade to 2 GB RAM. It is about $150. So we can do a bit more. hehe

 

[Nightravn]

Wow lots of good feedback here..........

@Mrakvampire - Out of the 40 World Wonders included in this MOD only 4 World and 3 (maybe 4 if you count the Red Cross which is really a global agency) out of 16 National wonders are taken from America. This adds up to 7/8 out of 56 Wonder so I don't get your take on this. Can and should there be more Wonders? Maybe...... so if you have any ideas on it give suggestions instead of saying we are just a propaganda machine. And lets please keep the real life politics out of this as this is a game and we are trying as our new motto says "Rewrite the History of the World."

@Spartan117 - I will get the other maps going after we have this one done and are good to go though I am trying to get the map scripts worked on so we can have some good random maps to play with too. I don't now if I will do a smaller world map as it would seriously hamper certain Civs even more than this Map does. Now as for the Minutemen/Rifleman will I see your point BUT the Redcoats are Riflemen so therefore so are the Minutemen. There was rifling back in those days so it fits.

During the Civil war then main difference was that cartridge ammo was developed making guns faster to fire. Not sure how to represent this in game. I do not know if there is a way to include collateral damage to the defensive side of a battle so I will have to let others who know more than me address this.

I believe that Houman is waiting on including the Mercenary Mod until we can test it out more but he would have to comment more on that. The 1.61 version should be out soon as I have a working copy that runs though there are a few errors. I think what is taken the most time is the inclusion of all the updated Mod Components that we have for this Mod.

@Pisces - WOW, that is some great feedback and is actually what I am looking for.

I like that Idea for Riga... I have been trying to get the AI to settle a city there so this is a good compromise. Though if I put a Barb city in Amsterdam I think that would be too much though I guess we could try it and see how it does.

For Australia I will strengthen the Barbs there but I can't but in later units as that would make them available for all barbs and that though it might be interesting wouldn't be a pretty site. I was hoping that with no one to bother that they would build themselves up more to be a challenge to whoever got there first. I might strengthen the Barbs in the Indonesian areas to help slow the Japanese down. I also think that they might have to much in the way of gold/silver resources giving them a huge boost to their economy and will have to test taking some of that out.

China in all my games either gets wiped out early or goes on the do pretty well so its hard to say for them.

America will get some more free Ranging Barbs but usually if the barbs take out America that just leaves it open for Monty. I am definitely going to have to strengthen the S.American Barbs as the Incas have free reign over there.

As for Egypt well in most of my games and in testing they start off well but always seem to get taken out. So I am not sure what it calls for over there. I don't see a big problems with increasing the cost of war chariots. I think one of their strengths/weakness is that both of their UU are real early units but once those become obsolete they have problems. I think I might tone down the Nile just a hair and see how that goes.

Russia always does pretty good in my games even with the cut to financial so with the move of Helsinki to Riga that should be a big boost to them.

The only thing I did to France is remove one of the wheat and I did that to hopefully encourage Spain to actually get to the Barcelona area first as France always tends to go for it. I might remove the gold from there as I believe that is why France goes for it.

@dimaliok - that is the second post of this thread and is very outdated. The DL we have at sourceforge is a self extracting Zip file so no worries as you don't need any particular program to get it.

Thanks for all the comments and keep it up..... play whatever Civ you want and let me know how it goes. One thing I am finding is that the later Eras are coming to soon as in my current game as England I have Redcoats in 1000 AD and in a test game I just ran the AI had Mech Infantry in 1760 which BTW is only turn 600 out of 1200 so it is only half way through. So I think a major increase to tech cost after the Middle Ages is in order. What do all of you Think? I am thinking at least 25% maybe more.

I will make a few modifications to the Map and Post it here so you can all have access to and test it before the next update of the Mod.


@Houman - you beat me to the punch and posted first, I guess I need to not type so much.

 

[Mrakvampire]

2 Houman.
At first my statement "it's not realism" was hmm... a sort of joke. I understand that this is only a game, and it's not about realism, it's about balance.
To say, in truth, I played this mod only 2 times. I play on my notebook, and though it's a good notebook it's a bit laggy, so I must admit, current game is played using 'Sevomod'.

But then I found that there are people in this forum, who... do not understand about what they are talking. They talk about history, but know nothing about it. They talk about war-machines (aircraft) but they know nothing about them. It offends me deeply, really, that's why I say some things that are not quite polite.

So, please forgive me.



***************************************************************
NOW, I srongly recommend to stop reading to those who are easily offended. Now I shall make my last 'angry letter' for those who do not bother themselves to read some books.
***************************************************************


2 Drogear:

Look I don't really have a lot of time to discuss your sense of humor, or my sense of humor, or sense of humor of our beloved God, when he created Earth.

I pointed to the creators of this mod about some things that I think are NOT REALISM.
You may think about reality in your way, learn history from TV and Civ I-IV
It's not really my problem about your education and knowledge. If you want, use internet and find tactical characteristics of F-15, Su-27, Su-37, Sherman, T-34, Panther and you also may search for 'brilliant' tactics used by USA in Vietnam (they _lost_ that war), and 'brilliant' tactics used by USSR in Afganistan (they also _lost_ that war), you may read about China's moral values, it's history, and history of Japan.
Two super-powers could not defeat small countries! THINK about it...
You may still think that the best electronics are produced in USA, and German workers are the most disciplined and efficient in the world.
Yes, I think it's very funny.
It's very funny when people die, yes? They die 'protected' by 'perfect' defence and early detection systems, are they? Or maybe that 'perfect' technology is not so good?
11.09.2001
'Invincible' Stealth-bomber (F-117A) was shot down in 1999 in the skies of Ugoslavia by S-125, "archaic" AA-defense system, so maybe F-117A is not so invisible and invincible? And pilot died that day. And many people died in that and other conficts in the last 10 years.
I hate war, and I hate death. But also I hate people who talk about something they do not know.

 

[jbolton0421]

@all
Meanwhile don't be such a wuss and upgrade to 2 GB RAM. It is about $150. So we can do a bit more. hehe

Don't give up on the memory management. It may be another year before I can get another computer. I'm maxed-out at 1.8GHz, 1 GB RAM, 256MB Video, memorysave=1, and I end task on memory hogs before I play.

It takes 2 -5 minutes between turns (7th century AD).

 

[12monkeys]

... And pilot died that day. ... But also I hate people who talk about something they do not know.

Mmm. As far as I know, the pilot of that shoot down F117 has been saved by an SAR team.
So far about people who do not talk about something they do not know .

Hey, but seriously! I think you take things to serious. Nobody is perfect and nobody knows everyhing. And this includes you. I'm quite sure, that you once talked about things which you "think" are true, but anybody else had better information and proove you were wrong. Did you start to hate yourself then (that are your words!)?
Life is a learning process and todays lesson may be, that you don't need to get agressive if someone say something you may know its wrong. If you are offended by this fact, you have a serious problem in your life. So step back and calm down.

 

[Los Tirano]

I agree with Nightravn's take on the strength and weaknesses of egypt. So please dont increase production costs of war chariots. They are redundant so quickly in the long run, and are already massacred by other ancient UU's like phalanxes. Personally it will realy ruin the game for me if i just cant build quite enough chariots to do my early empire expanding rush.

Barbs could be strengthened in Java and Srivijaya kingdoms (areas of modern day Indonesia) instead of Australia to hold back the Japanese expansion. Saw srivijaya city, was most impressed. But, and this i think is crucial. If Japan hadnt been so isolationist in its history who knows what empire it could have been created before the greater east-asian co-prosperity sphere. If we make barbs too strong, it only leaves the invasion of china or europe. Anyone ever seen that happen? I ran into a Japanese galley off spain once.

 

[Spartan117]

i dont think a smaller world map would work that would not be a very good map but maybe of specific locations of earth... like what you said europe etc... maybe the western hemisphere or euroasia, the pacific... I love playing on earth maps or sections on earth but with your additions it is too much too handle for my computer

minute men, not a real soldier i think, went obsolete before rifles were invented... minute men used muskets... rifles can reload faster, could shoot over farther differences and were more accurate

china is not a small country it is one of the largest countries in the world with the biggest population and they are modern... not small in any standard

you guys should try to include some of the units created in the sevo mod, i think he had an apache and other units....
I am near broke and am not able to afford a $150 addition.. otehr wise i would play the huge 217 by 100 something map

 

[Nightravn]

India (1.09) Fun. I had 9 goodie huts all in easy range so I was given an unfair advantage. I had way too much room to expand. Karachi, Bombay, Lahore and Calcutta were founded and had walls before the first barbarian showed up from the south. Only the Persians had come to visit and the mongals and chinese knew of me since I'd taken their huts. Elephant seemed more of a fluff UU than any real advantage but I didn't really need them. The fast worker saves a ton of money and never goes obsolete.

Suggestions: cut the # of goodie huts. India is supposed to be powerful and toning it down would be a shame. Playing it would offer less of a challenge but playing against it is fun.

I forgot to address this issue so here goes..........

I have been thinking about removing all Goody Huts from the Map as they give a unfair advantage to those Civs who can access more of them not to mention if they Give a certian critical tech which tends to skew it more and mess with the timeline. What is everybodies opinion on this?


Also......

@Spartan117 - after doing some research I agree that Minutemen and Redcoats should be moved to Musketman. We need to take a look at the three UU of Musketeers, Redcoats and Minutemen to make them similar but different.

 

[Pisces]

I agree with Nightravn's take on the strength and weaknesses of egypt. So please dont increase production costs of war chariots. They are redundant so quickly in the long run, and are already massacred by other ancient UU's like phalanxes. Personally it will realy ruin the game for me if i just cant build quite enough chariots to do my early empire expanding rush.

Barbs could be strengthened in Java and Srivijaya kingdoms (areas of modern day Indonesia) instead of Australia to hold back the Japanese expansion. Saw srivijaya city, was most impressed. But, and this i think is crucial. If Japan hadnt been so isolationist in its history who knows what empire it could have been created before the greater east-asian co-prosperity sphere. If we make barbs too strong, it only leaves the invasion of china or europe. Anyone ever seen that happen? I ran into a Japanese galley off spain once.

Maybe it's just my games, I'm not sure but one of the hardest aspects of this mod is cutting down the barbarians as quickly as possible and hoping the AI does the same to the barbs around their cities or they will fly up the tech tree and destroy everyone. This does not mean I want that to change. I love that aspect!!! I was actually bummed out many of the barb cities got cut down in 1.00. That said, Adding a city in Java (I think you meant Borneo since Java is already populated) would do nothing to stop Australian expansion. You can sail right by it. Australia on the map is massive and though not rich in resources, it has room. The real killer of the Japanese for balance is the organized trait. They can expand majorly before it starts to cost more than they can pay from their major fish gains. I have no issues at all with the Japanese making huge gains in south east asia, indonesia and the phillipines. My issue is Australia is left open for colonization and is wide open for**only** the Japanese. At least in the Americas this is to be expected. China has barbs to the south and Khan to the north. Russia has more barbs than land. The europeans have civs building cities on top of cities. Japan is simply handed the keys to an entire continent with pathetic to no resistance. The trouble with adding barb cities in large numbers is they seem to gain techs way too quickly. With the forbidden palace, Japan has 7 growing and productive cities that are completely untouchable by anyone except the incas and they are too busy growing in a dense south america.

I'm going to give the Arabs and the Incas a shot next.

(I chose to ignore out of game discussions and hope others do as well. It's easier to point and laugh at someone being silly than teach them their error over the internet)

 

[Pisces]

I forgot to address this issue so here goes..........

I have been thinking about removing all Goody Huts from the Map as they give a unfair advantage to those Civs who can access more of them not to mention if they Give a certian critical tech which tends to skew it more and mess with the timeline. What is everybodies opinion on this?

Go for it. I've had Hinduism granted to me from only 2 huts last game as India.

@Houman I don't know for sure of the Indian elephant is tougher. I already had better than elephants when I was able to afford further expansion then the entire Indian subcontinent. china stood no chance. Japan was otugher since they go right after your ships. Khan was lost somewhere in Siberia. Russia folded like a cheap suit. The rest was just cleanup.

 

[Spartan117]

Originally Posted by Sevo
I also think that nukes could use a little tweaking--I think: 1) using a nuke should give more than a -1 penalty. It should piss off the entire world...after the first one. The first one should be a freebie (after all, no one knows what a "nuke" is...yet...). I also think you ought to be able to nuke your own territory, troops, whatever. If I point it there, it should go there and blow the @!#$ up!

****yea this should be this way***


THE FOLLOWING IS quoted from MOFO:
"Other ideas/wish list:



I really like this idea "Holy Relic" icons that you could move around that give certain benefits to the holder of the relic as long as they were the right religion. Carrying the "Arc of the Covenant" into battle, or holding the "Tooth of the Buddha" in a city would give you some kind of bonus. If you captured one of these Relics but were not of the right religion, you would just be hiding them from those that are, and they would be pissed! "Return our Holy Relic to us or else!"


Refusing to do something negative to a third party when asked by another civ should give you positive points towards the civ that you are supporting - Instead of just receiving negative points towards the requesting civ when you refuse. Also, when you return a city to the original founding civ after throwing out another occupying civ you should get some positive points - "You have liberated our city from the evil invaders! How can we ever repay you?".

You should be able to automatically block certain requests from certain civs (a better diplomacy page in general would be nice) so that you aren’t bugged by those civs asking you go to war for them every other turn even though they won’t even allow you open borders or tech/resource trade… Maybe even have more options in reply that would either give positive or negative points depending on your response. “No way you losers” (-) to “Sorry we can’t” (0) to “Sure, no problem” (+).

Naval blockades and zones of control should be looked at... An invading force can sail right past a navy and land without contest..."

MY OWN OPINION "WOULD BE BETTER NAVAL MINES And introduction of Land MINES"

"AIR POWER!!! You should be able to attack/defend an enemies Air Force with your Air Force. You should be able to battle for air supremacy before having to send in bombers - or at least enable fighters to escort bombers during their runs.

There also should be smaller jet/prop bombers that can be loaded onto carriers. An aircraft carrier is the most powerful OFFENSIVE conventional weapons platform in existence today (due to the air units it carries), but is currently useless except as a DEFENSIVE support unit used to protect your navy from enemy bombers… A carrier should be able to hold one marine unit or commando unit as well?

There should be automatic recon missions over your zone of control by fighters to spot enemies coming in - having to do this manually every turn is tedious.

Airbases that you can build in non-claimed territory would be nice - And your air units should be safe from attack while in a friendly city… One enemy spearman can destroy 100 air units just by entering the neutral city

Gunships should be able to move over coastal water and need more movement points over their own land - As it stands right now, cavalry units are faster than 300km per hour choppers…

Being able to remove roads on your own land would be nice - also, workers should be able to “dismantle” improvements (pillage function).



Mountain crossing roads should be able to be build at some point… right now on the standard Earth map you cannot travel to South America from Central America by road…

Explorers should upgrade to spies?

Spies should be able to "acquire" some science points from another civ towards a discovery.

Going to war should affect the attitude of all other civs with the same religions as those involved in the war, regardless of other considerations. Religious Wars/alliances would add another interesting factor when choosing what Religion to follow. Also, the benefits of having a Holy City should be increased, and there should be an increase in the other civs desire for a Holy City - Holy Wars!!!


You should be able to gather a resource outside your territory as long as it is not in someone else’s territory and you have a route by road/sea/air. First to claim resource gets to use it until you lose it by war or territory growth.

You should be able to hold a spot with a military unit (like building a fort) to stop a civ from building a city there until the area is in someone’s territory - or you lose the space through war. Same with another civ’s unit moving through your military unit (like a zone of control) “Do you allow them safe passage through?” Negative attitude points if you don’t allow them passage.

Upgrades have to cost less, or units could upgrade naturally if stationed in a city for a certain amount of time - during which they cannot move or fight.

Certain military units (like legionaries/marines) should be able to build roads/remove jungle.

Certain units (like chariots/tanks) should need a road before they can enter a jungle area."

these are like the most intriguing ideas that i think the realism mod should try to implement
mofo is a freaking genius

what are other people's opinions ???

 

[Hian the Frog]

To Houman and Nightravn.

As i told you two days before, i tried to play Japan. I have played it twice, with two different tactics.

1) Make war against China and/or Mongolia. It's nearly impossible until the arrival of true transport ship and Samouraîs. But fun... Many deads and destruction for few results. Like a trench war.

2) Colonize, colonize and ....colonize. My goal was to colonize the most islands as possible to block China, Mongolia and India on Asia continent.
My first priority was "Stonhenge" for its cutural bonus very useful with beggining cities.
So, all Philippines (2 cities), Java (2), Sumatra (1) , Borneo (1) , New Papouasia (2) , Taiwan (1)....were mine. A strong fleet, 2 def units/city and some fastest in stack to respond to a succesfull beach-head. Of course no agrement with that civ. This tactic works nearly well...until Mongolia conquer China and thereafter try to attack my southern cities. The less productive but easier to invade. Great naval fight and to the end a kind a "tactical victory" for me. In fact a draw. I was second ater Russia.(always and again)
I stopped around 1200 AD.....crash of my mother board, CPU, and video card because of a storm and thunder.

Japan is a very powerful country. Organized gives him a strong bonus of money and allow colonization far away without heavy losses. you should look at that. Building a city on Sumatra (Aceh) and/or Borneo (Brunei Sultanate) may be a solution. Just remember that Aceh was a powerful Muslim country around 1000-1400 that build his power by trade in the Malacca Strait and a strong war navy... Few years later, Makassar (in the Celebes) and Brunei were also local powers. They were all destroyed by Portugueses and after Dutch colonists.

Now, with my new computer , I could REALLY test on a long time a civ.

My last question: is there a specific civ that you want to be tested ? at witch level ?

Tell me. I could do it.

The Frog

 

[Samuelson]

I have a suggestion for you guys. I dont know if it would be possible, but maybe you could use the SDK to create upgradable roads. First you could create dirt roads, then you could upgrade them to paved roads, then to railways, then to modern roads, then to modern highways. Each one could maybe give .5 of 1 more movement then the previous.

 

[JakeCourtney]

Now that the SDK is out what will you guys plan for diplomacy and nukes?

 

[Nightravn]

Ok I made a few adjustments to the Map..... hope you Like...

There are 2 versions one with Goody Huts and the other without. The one with is Labeled with NGH. I am going out of town for the weekend so.... test..... test.... test and let me know the results.

BTW in a test game before the changes I made in which the AI basically ran by itself the results were quite interesting after 600 turns which is half way though the game and in the year 1760. There where only 7 CIVs left with Greece on top controlling East Africa,Mid-East, Central Asia and India. China was second with N and S.E Asia and strangely West Africa. Coming in third was Monty with basically control of the Americas. The coolest thing about it all was that Australia was was nothing but Barbs with like 6/7 cities and looking good and this is before I made any changes. It's crazy what the AI will come up with if left to there own devices.


@Frog - Try the Japanese again this time with the new no goody hut map...... I test everything on noble as that is where the balance of the game should lie.


Have Fun.....


EDIT I have updated the map so get the NEW copy.... 4/27/06 1:30pm CST

 

[Los Tirano]

6/7 citites? Impressive, the barbarians are really just as expansionistic as the civs now. Good job making them stronger. But, i have to emphasise again that to be realistic there should be no cities on Australia, not one. The Australian aboriginals were nomads and had no permanent settlements, let alone cities. Certainly not a unified front of cities with the power to halt and rival Japan.

The way it is now, if a British galley gets to Australia with a settler and a red coat or two what is it going to be able to do? It'll be crushed or be unable to contend with the strong native barbarian cities, which may even have a tech lead . So you stop Japan but you change history. However, its no big deal, i just open world builder and edit it when i start the game.

 

[Nightravn]

Let me run some test as I don't think the Barbs need a city to produce settlers though I might be wrong on that. As far as Teching goes well It can't use a tech until a civ has researched it frist. the thing is it can be any Civ and then they don't need resources and such to produce the units like civ's do. In my next test i will take the City out and just leave a bunch on Barbs there to see if any cities form.

Edit.... Ok in thetest there were Barb Cities in Australia so as I thought they will settle no matter what we do. I do think I might need to hamper the greeks though as in every game they are just smoking.

 

[alireza1354]

Cant download it

 

[Houman]

Cant download it

What do you mean you can't download it? Click on the download link.