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Modding Q&A

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Oni Ryuu, Feb 1, 2017.

  1. Bluemofia

    Bluemofia F=ma

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    You explicitly need to sacrifice foreign units, so depending on how many wars were fought, they might not have had enough wars to do so.
     
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  2. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    Bluemofia, this is a very complicated item and I have no special own experience to it - but I think there should be a response to your question. The knowledge about that problem in the German Civ 3 Wikipedia is based on the thread you have linked in your post and its predecessor thread. In the last paragraph it is noted, that at least in pbem-games there was noticed the 'bug', that a player even was in war happiness after loosing 7 cities and dozens of units. In another pbem-game, similar to the other, after the loss of two cities, the war happiness was gone.

    Can it be, that war weariness is not working strictly 'linear' as it should be according to the threads, but there is also a randomized factor in it ?
     
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  3. Bluemofia

    Bluemofia F=ma

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    The specific test I have done:

    * Created a map with 4, 2 tile islands, with 32, 62, 92, and 122 workers on one tile, and 1 AI military unit belonging to a different AI Civilization (AI1 shared with 32, AI2 with 62, AI3 with 92, and AI4 with 122), and a "mainland" where everyone has their initial starting position and city.
    * Human player's initial city has 20 citizens, with surrounding tiles appropriately improved such that it generates a net 0 food per turn.
    * 3 Governments, "NONE", "LOW", and "HIGH", each requiring zero military maintenance, and no building maintenance. The only difference is that each has a different War Weariness level.
    * 5 improvements with "Reduce War Weariness" (Police 1 through 5), and 5 small wonders with "Reduce War Weariness in all cities" (Suffrage 1 through 5). With the exception of the SW, each can be instantly added/sold from cities via Debug mode, and their effects observed in real time.
    * Set on Chieftain difficulty level, modified so that 20 citizens are born content.
    * Everyone starts in Anarchy, and can choose their initial government. The initial save file is re-used to re-test each of the different war-weariness levels.
    * I disabled the governor, so any war-weariness would manifest as unhappiness immediately.
    * After war is declared, the AIs would capture the stack of workers, and inflict 32, 62, 92, or 122 WW Points, and the next turn the human player would suffer the effects of war-weariness. I intentionally gave a few extra points to accommodate for gradual decrease due to lack of units in borders.

    While I did not confirm the point values described, I was able to confirm that Level 1, Level 2, and Level 4 show a different result in Low War Weariness. Low had the expected 25%, 50%, 100% threshold, counteracted by 1, 2, and 4 Police Station improvements.

    However, High War Weariness did not behave as expected. High had 50% for Level 1, 100% for Level 2, the same 100% for Level 3, and 200% for Level 4 (results were that 5 Police Stations had a net result of 15 unhappy citizens, where 5 would cause a 125% WW unhappiness reduction).

    I attempted to see if this required a few turns to proc, so I spawned one military unit inside AI4's borders to gain 1 WWP per turn as described in the War Weariness threads to counteract the natural decrease. Even after waiting 20 turns, at Level 4 (122 workers lost, and observed at 200% Unhappiness due to War Weariness), High did not revolt.

    Here are the following hypothesis:
    * Chieftain difficulty level, or difficulty level 1 is hard coded to prevent the player's government from being overthrown.
    - Can be tested by testing on Sid difficulty level, but with the same 20 citizens content.
    * Civilization too small to revolt. You need a minimum number of citizens or cities for the government to be overthrown.
    - Can be tested by setting more cities. Setting the number of cities to, say 20, each with 20 citizens, to exceed the total number of optimal cities for the default map.
    * Government did not exist for long enough before war was declared. Unlikely, because war-weariness showed up immediately.
    - Can be tested by waiting a full 20 turns before declaring war.
    * Numbers listed are incorrect
    - Can be tested by creating another island with 152 workers on one tile, and AI civilization AI5, or as many as necessary.
    * Bug in C3C
    - Can be ruled out by finding a way to trigger a government overthrow, or documented evidence of someone doing so in C3C Steam version.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
  4. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    Bluemofia, it seems compared to your test-settings, even 'Trinity' was a child´s play. :crazyeye:

    Unfortunately at present I don´t have the time to do here my own tests, but I would be very interested in the opinions of other modders about that problem, too. :)
     
  5. Bluemofia

    Bluemofia F=ma

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    I intend to run the tests later today as I've already got the basic map and setup finished, but I'm just checking to see if anyone else has any ideas that I might have missed, or see any flaws in my methodology.
     
  6. mpeti

    mpeti Chieftain

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    I have seen in some scenarios the submarine bug being used to initiate war between civs at the start of the game. I tried to reproduce it having 2 adjacent tiles separated by impossible tiles. One of them has an immobile invisible unit on it, while the other contains a unit to attack it. But the AI doesn't move their unit (they even fortify it, which is infuriating as the unit only has Go To, Wait and Explore ticked), and makes contact with me as if they could see the invisible unit. Does anyone know which setting are important for this to work and what I could have missed?
     
  7. Bluemofia

    Bluemofia F=ma

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    Another one is a reason for the AI to move to that square. Try putting the submarine between the AI's unit and an immobile Barbarian Galley or something.
     
  8. MartinLuther

    MartinLuther look at this kawaii anime boy i found :)

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    Ok, one more pollution question: I thought Pollution Effect in the terrain tab meant "this terrain will turn into this terrain if pollution sits on it for too long." But looking at Bluemofia's Da Rules thread it's an effect of global warming? What I'm trying to do for my mod is all terrain turn into Wasteland as a Pollution Effect. Wasteland is essentially a Volcano with really strong disease. I guess what I'm asking is can Pollution Effect happen without Global Warming? If no, how do you trigger Global Warming in game?

    On that note, I was thinking the only way to remove Wasteland is Planting Forest but I'd like for Planting Forest to only be available on Wasteland.
     
  9. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    When looking at the concept entries of the civilopedia, there is no direct connection between war weariness and revolution (falling in Anarchy). Between war weariness and falling in Anarchy there is another level: Civil Disorder. War Weariness is only one factor, that can trigger Civil Disorder. It seems there is no exception about that rule for war weariness leading directly to Anarchy, at least there are no such passages in the civilopedia (the civilopedia uses the words 'can lead'). The consequence would be, that War Weariness leads to another period of the civ (Civil Disorder) and not automatically to the collapse of the government by falling in Anarchy. Falling in Anarchy is only one of the possibilities when a civ has reached the level of Civil Disorder ( = state of near Anarchy). So may be it could be interesting what really happens, when a civ with high war weariness has reached the level of Civil Disorder. :think:



     

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    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
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  10. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    Hello, @Bluemofia, I don't have much modding experience, except for a scenario I made back in the day, but I am also interested in your questions about War Weariness (WW), so I also set up some tests to help.

    I put it in a spoiler because it might be a little long.
    Spoiler :

    Set-up 1: To show a democracy will enter anarchy after achieving WW level 3.
    Player starts in democracy. Player is given one size-20 metro (this allows WW in 25% increments to show up as whole number citizens), and some warriors as defenders. I also placed 96 defense-0 units (workers) in three stacks, 32 units each, on an island near my capital.
    Enemy civ is given a size-1 town as a capital, and two warriors: one near my capital for contact, and the other positioned by my workers to take them 32 at a time for 3 turns in a row.
    There are no other players. Difficulty is chieftain where 20 citizens are born content.

    Turn 0: I declare war.
    In-between Turn 1: Enemy takes 32 workers (+32 ww points, 32 total, level 1)
    Turn 1: Unit is produced in player's capital! This means happiness (whether a city will top or not) is calculated before WW is added. When I zoomed to the city when the unit was produced, I still had 20 content citizens. This means I won't be overthrown until after turn 3 is completed.
    Once my turn starts, I have 10 content and 10 unhappy citizens so I increase the luxury slider to maintain order.
    IBT 2: Enemy takes 32 workers (+32 ww points, 64 total, level 2)
    Turn 2: Unit is produced again, unhappiness is now 100%, as predicted.
    IBT 3: Enemy takes 32 workers (+32 ww points, 96 total, level 3)
    Turn 3: Unit is produced again, still 100% unhappy. I assume a city can never be over 100% unhappy.
    IBT 4: As soon as I hit enter, I am overthrown. I enter anarchy and never experienced any civil disorder.
    //
    Set-up 2: To show WW is calculated in a per-enemy basis, that is: a democracy will need to achieve level 3 WW from a single enemy to be overthrown.
    Player starts in democracy. Player is given one size-20 metro (this allows WW in 25% increments to show up as whole number citizens), and some warriors as defenders. I also placed 96 defense-0 units (workers) in three stacks, 32 units each, on an island near my capital.
    Enemy civ1 is given a size-1 town as a capital, and two warriors: one near my capital for contact, and the other positioned by my workers to take them 32 at a time for 2 turns in a row.
    Enemy civ2 is given a size-1 town as a capital, and two warriors: one near my capital for contact, and the other positioned by my workers to take them 32 at a time for 1 turn.
    There are no other players. Difficulty is chieftain where 20 citizens are born content.

    Turn 0: I declare war on both opponents.
    IBT 1: Each civ takes 32 workers. I think this will give me level 1 ww with each civ as opposed to level 2 ww.
    Turn 1: I have 100% unhappiness, inconclusive as to how the WW was allocated.
    IBT 2: Enemy 1 takes 32 more workers. I think this gives me ww level 2 with enemy 1 and we level 1 with enemy 2.
    Turn 2: I will need to recheck if any more of my citizens became unhappy. I am under the impression that a player can't incur over 100% unhappiness.
    IBT 3: Even though I received the same 96 ww points, my democracy was not overthrown. WW is calculated on a per-enemy basis.
    //
    Set-up 3: To determine the effects of the default police station on a democracy.
    Player starts in democracy. Player is given one size-20 metro (this allows WW in 25% increments to show up as whole number citizens) with a police station, and some warriors as defenders. I also placed 96 defense-0 units (workers) in three stacks, 32 units each, on an island near my capital.
    Enemy civ is given a size-1 town as a capital, and two warriors: one near my capital for contact, and the other positioned by my workers to take them 32 at a time for 3 turns in a row.
    There are no other players. Difficulty is chieftain where 20 citizens are born content.

    Turn 0: I declare war.
    IBT 1: Enemy takes stack of 32 workers.
    Turn 1: Only 5 citizens (25%) are made unhappy.
    IBT 2: Enemy takes stack of 32 workers.
    Turn 2: An additional 5 citizens are made unhappy.
    IBT 3: Enemy takes stack of 32 workers.
    Turn 3: An additional 5 citizens are made unhappy.
    IBT 4: I am overthrown as soon as I hit enter.


    I can run some additional scenarios tonight.
     
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  11. Bluemofia

    Bluemofia F=ma

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    From this, the major difference between our tests was that the WWP were collected all at once in my tests, while in yours was done continuously over multiple turns. Here are the possibilities I can think of:
    * You need a few turns of war at minimum before the government can be overthrown, and it can only be overthrown in a triggering event such as battle losses. (While it took you 3 turns in your test, it may be that you need 2 turns minimum or something).
    - Reasoning: In my test of 122 workers captured on IBT 1, this did not result in an overthrow, and no overthrow happened when I had a unit in enemy territory for ~20 consecutive turns.
    - This can be determined by having a 1 or 2 turn buffer before the AI captures the stacks of workers. For example, having the AI walk 3 tiles to capture a 92 worker stack.

    * You need a few turns of war at minimum before the government can be overthrown, and it can only be overthrown in a triggering event once eligible, and having a unit in enemy territory does not generate WWP.
    - Reasoning: If you need to gain WWP on the turn overthrow is possible, and WWP gain does not come from having a unit sit in enemy territory, this is consistent with the results of both of our tests. This is slightly different than the previous, because the previous assumes WWP can be gained from units in enemy territory, while this one assumes WWP cannot be gained.
    - This can be determined by performing the above test to confirm a minimum turn limit, then perform a test by sitting one unit in enemy territory for 30 turns to see if it ticks into level 2 War Weariness, or have 29 workers captured, and 2 turns of waiting.

    There does seem to be a minimum turn requirement, either way, because I had lost 122 workers in 1 turn in my tests, yet no revolt happened, when you had a revolt at the 96 worker, turn 3 mark. Furthermore, the War Weariness was confirmed to be level 4 in my test, where I had functionally 200% unhappiness that 5 police stations reduced to 75% unhappiness.
     
  12. Bluemofia

    Bluemofia F=ma

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    Yes, Pollution Effect it is due to global warming, and in vanilla Civ3, from nuclear strikes.

    Global Warming is triggered by a lot of pollution. I'm not sure on the exact numbers (as they will probably vary based on map size), and I'm not sure if it makes a distinction between Volcano produced pollution, or city/nuclear weapon produced pollution, but after a point, tiles start randomly turning into whatever the Pollution Effect lists it as.

    I personally haven't played around much with planting forests and changing around terrain in response to global warming, because when I did I was impatient and never made a large enough map, or fired off enough nuclear weapons on a variety of tiles (I don't think bombarding the same tile over and over again, or the ocean, can cause global warming), but what you are trying to do sounds viable. All you need to do is to set the Worker Action for only the "Wasteland" terrain to be "Plant Forest", and remove it from the other terrain (Grassland, plains, etc.) you will only be allowed to plant forests on the Wasteland terrain.
     
  13. Bluemofia

    Bluemofia F=ma

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    So, finished the tests, and it was strange to say the least. I was able to successfully overthrow a High War-Weariness government, but not in a way that was expected:

    Spoiler Test Results :

    Scenario Setup:
    5 AI civilizations, 1 Human Civilization, similar to the setup prior, but every civilization except for AI5 and AI3 has access to at least 120 workers.
    AI1 has 4 piles of 32 workers
    AI2 has 2 piles of 62 workers
    AI3 has 1 pile of 92 workers
    AI4 has 1 pile of 122 workers
    AI5 is instead alone, on an island, uncontacted by any civilization.

    Difficulty was irrelevant, as tested on both easiest difficulty (Chieftain) and max difficulty (Sid)

    Setup:
    Change to High War Weariness government, disable governor.

    Test1:
    1. Declare war on AI1. After 4 turns, all workers are captured, War Weariness at 200%, however government is not overthrown.
    2. Declare war on AI2. After 2 turns, all workers are captured. War Weariness at 400%, 200 from each, however government is not overthrown.
    3. Declare war on AI3, AI4. After 1 turn, all workers are captured. After 1 more turn, government is overthrown.

    Note: AI5 is still uncontacted.

    This seems to imply that you need to have declared war on all civilizations, and reach max war weariness in each.

    Test2:
    This time was done in reverse order:
    1. Declare war on AI3, AI4. After 1 turn, all workers are captured. Government not overthrown.
    2. Declare war on AI2. After 2 turns, all workers are captured. Government is not overthrown.
    3. Declare war on AI1, manually spawned high defense blocker to prevent stack 4's capture to limit to level 3. After 3 turns, 3 stacks (96 workers) are captured. After 4th turn, government is overthrown.

    Note: AI5 is still uncontacted.

    Test3:
    This time, contact AI5 by spawning a unit on their island, making contact, and deleting said unit.
    1. Declare war on AI1. After 4 turns, all workers are captured. Government is not overthrown.
    2. Declare war on AI2. After 2 turns, all workers are captured. Government is not overthrown.
    3. Declare war on AI3, AI4. After 1 turn, all workers are captured. Government is not overthrown.

    Test4:
    Same as Test3, but contact AI5 the turn before I would have gotten government overthrow as per Test1.
    1. Declare war on AI1. After 4 turns, all workers are captured. Government is not overthrown.
    2. Declare war on AI2. After 2 turns, all workers are captured. Government is not overthrown.
    3. Declare war on AI3, AI4. After 1 turn, all workers are captured.
    4. Contact AI5, and wait 1 turn.
    5. Government is not overthrown.

    Test5+:
    To confirm if 4 wars was special or not. Created a new game, but only AI1 was spawned. AIs 2,3,4,5 were not spawned, but all had their own tests except AI5. All other setup the same otherwise.
    1. Declare war on AI1. After 4 turns, all workers are captured. Government is overthrown.

    The test was repeated with AI2,3,4, and in different combinations (Ex: AI1,2 on one map, AI2,3 on one map, AI3,4, on one map, AI1,2,3 on one map, and with different orders of declaring war as well as simultaneous war declarations. Same results. Once you reach level 3 war weariness level with all contacted civs, government is overthrown.


    TL;DR:
    In order for your government to be overthrown, you must reach Level 3 war weariness with every civilization you have contacted, not just the ones you are at war with. This seems to imply a very high leniency in actually being overthrown, for you only need one AI at peace to keep your government functional. Now your happiness values are going to go into the toilet if everyone is at Level 4 except for one civ, but that's besides the point.

    I have not confirmed the results with embassies, and MDP treaties for the presence of official allies, rather than neutral unaligned civs. This may be different, but it isn't as important for my purposes.

    By the way, the main test I was personally looking for was confirmed. Whether that, once you reach Level3 War Weariness, if any amount of police stations will prevent government overthrow. (No).
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  14. Bluemofia

    Bluemofia F=ma

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    @MartinLuther
    I take it back, I was browsing around, and found a conversation on this a few days ago in the General Civ3 discussions section:
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...nd-many-other-questions.643381/#post-15396691

    So yes, if you let pollution sit, it will eventually degrade the terrain.
     
  15. MartinLuther

    MartinLuther look at this kawaii anime boy i found :)

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  16. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    I thought I was going crazy last night, as I was unable to be overthrown in a scenario with 1 enemy and 1 neutral civ. I'm glad you figured it out.
     
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  17. Vojvoda

    Vojvoda Warlord

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    1. Outpost map improvement is it hard coded when enemy takes it it will destroy it or can be done to stay even if enemy forces control it?
    2. Is it possible to name specific forts, outposts, airports/in my case castles similar as cities? e.i. Dreadwood Castle etc.
     
  18. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    1. The outpost will be destroyed. You can read this in the C3C civilopedia:



    You can do a little trick and set the graphics of the outpost to transparency and place a resource file showing the graphics of an outpost (or different graphics) in that tile. You can read more about this technics in my posts about 'Invisible cities' (one of the first modding posts I did at CFC).

    2. In C3C they cannot be named directly, but it is possible to place the names in resource-files next to those locations. I attache a screenshot of the great scenario Aventurien (in German language), where this methode is used in different sizes (marked by red arrows I have added in that screenshot):



    Another way would be to place an 'invisible city' with the name of that location and a resource graphic in that tile:



    When working with resource files please don´t forget, that there unfortunately is a maximum of 256 in C3C.
     

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    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  19. Zefyrinus

    Zefyrinus Regent

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    Hi! I've run into a technical error with a scenario I'm working on, and was wondering if anyone can help. I decided to make scenario that copies all the techs from the Ancient Treasures scenario which is included in the game. So I just copied the biq file and kept the "scenario search folders" as is. Note that the resources for the original scenario are in Civilization III Complete/Conquests/Conquests/Ancient Treasures.

    So when I tried to start the game, I got an error message about something missing in PediaIcons. It turned out that the game couldn't find the assets that have been added to this scenario. I think it's because the assets are located in Civilization III Complete/Conquests/Conquests/Ancient Treasures, but the game expects the search way to be Civilization III Complete/Conquests/Scenarios.

    So then I just copied the whole Ancient Treasures folder and put it in the Scenarios folder. I renamed this copied folder, and entered the same name in "scenario search folders" in the scenario properties window. But now, when I try to start the game, it just says: FILE NOT FOUND "#". Does anyone have a clue what this is about?
     
  20. Nathiri

    Nathiri Commander

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    Did you put the '..'. If you note in the MP versions of the conquests how it's done. You could also just copy that path, and then rename whatever scenario folder it is.
     

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