Modding Speculation

[EmperorFool]

XML is data--not code. Code tells the computer what to do, gives it instructions to execute. Data is like your address or your grocery list. While XML is not as easy as writing a grocery list, it's not that far off. Especially given the subset of XML features Civ4 uses.

I agree that a GUI editor would be easier for making small changes to an existing unit, but for that XMLSpy--a free program--is sufficient.

Your argument about not having enough time to learn programing because you are doing other more important things is the exact same argument against having the Firaxis developers write a GUI tool. It's all about opportunity costs. If they spend time writing a GUI tool, they don't spend that time adding multiplayer capabilities or a mod browser.

That's right, you can now find and install mods within the game itself. No more going to CFC, downloading a ZIP, unzipping it into the wrong place, posting for help, waiting three days to learn the correct place, putting it there, restarting, having it break, posting again . . . and finally getting to play as Poland after two weeks of runaround.

I understand that you're angry that Firaxis isn't addressing your needs, but I would bet there are less than one thousand people with your precise need whereas there will be millions of people who want to install and play mods easily. I'm glad they prioritized the way they did. There are plenty of solutions for editing XML.

 

[Afforess]

If the programmers on already on the payroll, then where is the extra costs? Now, instead, if I want to be able to have a chance of editing or modding, I have to pay a fortune to do so? To be honest, all I hear is excuses! I haven't heard one good rationalization for why Firaxis can't create an editor. Other companies have done it! It is not so hard for a company with the direct resources to be able to do something. Instead, it appears that they would rather leave it on the shoulders of the fans...

I suggest you read up on Opportunity Costs. If you have your employees writing a GUI, it's time not spend programming Civ5, or whatever else.

To be honest, it is a slap in the face. This angers me because I feel that they just want to stifle creativity and reserve it for the gifted few. Programming isn't something that can be learned over night!

Wait a second here. Programming isn't a special "talent", it's something learned. There is no barrier to entry. You make it sound like there is a complex and special vetting process to be given the title "Programmer". There isn't.

 

[Yakk]

That is not a GUI editor in my book. What is so difficult about making an front end database with easy to edit fields. I can guarantee that I can make a easy to navigate database in Access within a week (maybe two taking into account my job and commute). The only problem would be, since I am not a programmer, I would not be able to make it functional. I am a designer, not a programmer... contrary to what some believe (and that includes XML code because, as far as I am concerned, if it is made up of lines and functions, etc, than it is programming), there is a difference!

Your database would have to be extendable, verifiable, fast to load, modifiable with easy to write command line and other tools, allow refactoring without breaking, permit rapid redevelopment of fields and data by programmers without having to wait for the GUI developer to make updates, and generally would probably slow down development.

The benefit would be that people could edit the strength of an axeman slightly easier. Deeper mods would be not all that much easier.

XML, as used by civ5 and civ4, is not code. There are no functions in XML that civ4 and civ5 uses.

If the programmers on already on the payroll, then where is the extra costs?

The programmers should be fully allocated to mission critical jobs, with a bit of play room.

While writing a primitive editor for the XML files might take 3 programmers 3 weeks, what 3 programmer week tasks are you willing to sacrifice? If you have excess programmers, then you screwed up before, and they should be working on the next game.

Now, instead, if I want to be able to have a chance of editing or modding, I have to pay a fortune to do so?

Have you tried editing the strength of an axeman in civ4?

I'm serious. Have you tried? I understand how you are spooked by the lack of a custom GUI, but it really is easy.

To be honest, all I hear is excuses! I haven't heard one good rationalization for why Firaxis can't create an editor.

They could. It would be worse than ones they can buy off the shelf for internal use. So they'd have to justify the cost of making the editor in terms of additional sales.

Making a polished editor that did everything you want it to do would take a lot of time and money. What is worse, it would actually make developing civ5 harder: if you are releasing a polished game data editor that is localized and the like, you end up having design freeze on the editor far before you'd have design freeze on the game mechanics.

Other companies have done it!

Is there a star control 1 GUI?
You do understand that the game mechanics of civ are in many ways more complex than nearly any other commercial game out there?

It is not so hard for a company with the direct resources to be able to do something. Instead, it appears that they would rather leave it on the shoulders of the fans...

They don't have unbounded resources.

To be honest, it is a slap in the face.

Now you ar etrolling.

This angers me because I feel that they just want to stifle creativity and reserve it for the gifted few.

XML editing isn't programming.

Nothing you could do with a polished GUI data editor cannot be done with XML editing.

High end modding of civ5 and civ4 requires programming, because that kind of modding changes not only the data, but what is done with the data.

If they had a billion dollars, they wouldn't be able to write a polished GUI editor that would span the range of civ4 code modifications that people did.

And yes, XML is programming. As far as I am concerned, if you use a text file to write it and it is lines of code (be it C++ or XML) it is programming.

So you are saying "any kind of text editor use is programming"?

Good news! You can learn to program. It is easy.

Sure, it is only programming as you call it -- but if editing civ4 XML to change the strength of an axeman is "programming", then you are a programmer. Because doing that is really, really trivial.

Want to learn? It will take you all of 5 minutes to learn how to do it -- about as much time as a decently composed forum post. Do you have that much time?

 

[TheLopez]

Take it from this professional software architect/designer/programmer for over 10 years at Intel Corp. XML crafting is not programming. Second, I tried my hand at creating an editor (have you not seen the tech tree editor?) I tried to expand it but it proved to be too much work for a single person... More to follow since I am buying food and on my phone

 

[CyberChrist]

I think most of you are missing the point - being that ciV is advertised as having unprecedented modding tools.

To me that means that the tools they deliver to help with modding has to be BETTER than anything they ever made before.

Since the Civ3 editor not only allowed map editing, but ALSO easy to use modification of stats for buildings, units, governments, civilizations etc. etc. then it would be fair to expect that the new unprecedented tools would also include a module for equally easy to use modification of the XML data.

Failing that then I don't see any justifiable arguments for claiming that the tools are unprecedented.

 

[EmperorFool]

Making a tool that made an extremely simple operation slightly easier would be far from unprecedented. What I consider unprecedented are the in-game mod marketplace and ModBuddy which will create a mod installer for you.

Do you have any idea how many days (weeks? maybe) I burned setting up BUG's install script and even more answering questions by users who couldn't figure out how to use it? Not to mention dealing with the different install paths of the various package versions (regular, Complete, Gold, Steam, and Direct2Drive).

Not having to deal with any of that nonsense would be unprecedented. Nay, it would be a ing miracle.

Turning

<UnitType>
    <Type>UNIT_AXEMAN</Type>
    ...
    <iStrength>5</iStrength>
    ...
</UnitType>

into

[B]Axeman:[/B]

...
           _____
Strength: |___5_|

would not.

 

[Dale]

Not having to deal with any of that nonsense would be unprecedented.

Agreed. I still get emails now from new players of Civ4 BtS asking how to setup the latest RtW.

 

[Valkrionn]

In this case, Firaxis! They have better resources and, above all, get paid!



Because Firaxis didn't bother with it and it seems to me that everybody was nuking the issue and building a program from the ground up. Maybe they felt that Access was beneath them (no offense to most programmers, but many that I meet tend to have "Sheldon Syndrome" )

AS far as how it wouldn't be as useful, please explain... I don't see how an easy to use editor would be harder than editing lines of XML.

....Why do you need an editor? I don't see how xml can be made any simpler, honestly. All it requires is freaking notepad.

It is NOT programming; It is simply listing data. You would take the same steps in any GUI you do in notepad. So a GUI does not make editing things appreciably easier, unless it does far more than allow you to edit. For a GUI to be useful, you'd need the ability to design and create entire mods from within it, not simply make small tweaks. And that is far more than a few hours of work.

For that matter, a quick GUI could do more harm than good! In a large mod, you may well add or remove tags... But if the GUI isn't extensible, it becomes useless to you.

July 2005 is when I started modding Civ4.

I've lost track... I know RifE got it's forum over a year ago, and it was over a year before that when I started modding... So I'd say sometime in 2007 or 2008.

They could have paid their employees. I am possitive that it wouldn't tie up more than 2 or 3 individuals for no more than a couple weeks. Maybe 3 or 4 if they only allocate an hour or two a day.

Yes. Tie up a portion of their ohhhh so significant work force, for just a few weeks, on something that is completely needed and revolutionary!

Oh, wait. We're overestimating their work force? They don't have so many programmers that they can toss them on projects that will go unused by many, just to satisfy a few people who can't use notepad? Ooops.

I'm hoping that previous C, C++, Python, and Java experience is going to give me at least a small understanding, and then I can learn from the Internet and code examples in Civ5... We shall see...

Same here. Never messed with Lua (well, a little bit when I played WoW, but at the time I had not started modding and did no more than look at it a bit), but I've been modding a few years now crazyeye and have C++, Python, Java, and a bit of C and C# under my belt... Shouldn't be too difficult.

If the programmers on already on the payroll, then where is the extra costs? Now, instead, if I want to be able to have a chance of editing or modding, I have to pay a fortune to do so? To be honest, all I hear is excuses! I haven't heard one good rationalization for why Firaxis can't create an editor. Other companies have done it! It is not so hard for a company with the direct resources to be able to do something. Instead, it appears that they would rather leave it on the shoulders of the fans...

To be honest, it is a slap in the face. This angers me because I feel that they just want to stifle creativity and reserve it for the gifted few. Programming isn't something that can be learned over night! It takes much time... I've tried to teach myself. I don't have the time for classes right now (unless I want to cancel out any and all leisure in my life). And I am NOT a programmer. I know that Sid Meier believes that a good designer is a programmer, but I cannot disagree more... with all due respect to Mr. Meier. A programmer and a Designer are two different things, no matter how you slice it.

And yes, XML is programming. As far as I am concerned, if you use a text file to write it and it is lines of code (be it C++ or XML) it is programming.

Where are the costs? Umm. Are you trolling here, or no? I can't tell anymore.

On the off chance you are not, it's quite simple. Yes, you're paying them either way, but if you assign an employee to do one thing, there is something else they are not doing.

XMLSpy is apparently available free. If not, open frikkin Notepad. It is NOT difficult to play with XML! It is no different than editing text!

Firaxis has done much to open modding up to the masses, and I'm quite excited about it. You implying that they are reserving it for the 'gifted few' is quite honestly a slap to the face to me, and many others here. XML is not programming. If you are unable to edit xml, then how in the hell are you posting on this forum? It is virtually the same thing!

Text is text! XML is text, not code! If you can write a forum post, you can modify xml. That is all there is to it.

 

[CyberChrist]

You are underestimating the benefits of using a well thought out editor, like the one for Civ3 (could have used a copy/paste function though). It is way easier, faster and safer to check and change stats as well as make new entries and delete/rearrange existing ones using such an editor - than it is scrolling page after page up and down in a text editor looking for the right entry in the raw XML.

 

[Valkrionn]

Making a tool that made an extremely simple operation slightly easier would be far from unprecedented. What I consider unprecedented are the in-game mod marketplace and ModBuddy which will create a mod installer for you.

Do you have any idea how many days (weeks? maybe) I burned setting up BUG's install script and even more answering questions by users who couldn't figure out how to use it? Not to mention dealing with the different install paths of the various package versions (regular, Complete, Gold, Steam, and Direct2Drive).

Not having to deal with any of that nonsense would be unprecedented. Nay, it would be a ing miracle.

Turning

<UnitType>
    <Type>UNIT_AXEMAN</Type>
    ...
    <iStrength>5</iStrength>
    ...
</UnitType>

into

[B]Axeman:[/B]

...
           _____
Strength: |___5_|

would not.

Actually, your little example there proves to me that a GUI of that type would make things slower, rather than faster.

It is not difficult to modify the Civ4 schemas so you only need non-default values to be listed, in any order (add Order="Many", and you're done). Meaning that with the xml, you only need to view those tags that actually do something. Granted, Civ4 itself doesn't work this way... But it appears that civ5 does.

I'd FAR rather only have to look at things that have an effect, than need to look at a graphical display for every possible freaking unit stat. There are approximately 250 such stats in Rise from Erebus. To modify that in a display of that sort would take ages, and if you only show values that take effect, then you have to have some method of adding unused stats to the display, and that will always take longer than simply typing <TAG NAME HERE>1</TAG NAME HERE>!

 

[Valkrionn]

You are underestimating the benefits of using a well thought out editor, like the one for Civ3 (could have used a copy/paste function though). It is way easier, faster and safer to check and change stats as well as make new entries and delete/rearrange existing ones using such an editor - than it is scrolling page after page up and down in a text editor looking for the right entry in the raw XML.

Whut? It's called ctrl-f. Not very hard...

And my last post pretty much explained why I dislike purely graphical editors anyway. There's a reason I always refused to use the Excel editor used for FfH.

 

[CyberChrist]

You are still completely missing the point.

 

[Valkrionn]

You are still completely missing the point.

Not really. I just don't acknowledge it as a valid point.

With the xml, you see only the necessary tags. Everything you see has an effect. It is short, to the point, and easily interpreted.

With a GUI, you see everything. You must scroll through it all, you have to keep track of what stats have been changed (Can't view it all at once!), have to hunt through a HUGE list (again, units in my mod have 250 attributes. I would NEVER even ATTEMPT to use a GUI with that.). You say it is faster? Everything in my own experience says the exact opposite.

Oh, sure, you can jump between unit entries! But as I said, ctrl-f does the same thing.

For free.

Allowing the developers to focus on the game, on mod-integration, on allowing mods to affect gameplay easier and in new ways.

Yes, I know you can fix some of my issues with it. I'm not sure how the hell you'd fix the issue you get when you have a lot of tags (and some files you will! Look at leaders in Civ4. Hundreds of tags required for every single leader.), but otherwise, the issues could be fixed. That does not change the fact that I think it is entirely wasted effort, useful to those few who are too stubborn, or just plain too stupid, to open the file in notepad.

It is not rocket science. It is text. That is all. No semi-mystical coding ability that you must be born into required, just the ability to type.

 

[CyberChrist]

At the risk of repeating myself then ... you are STILL missing the point.

The point being that one of the advertised selling points of ciV IS that it WILL offer "unprecedented modding tools". And if they want to live up to the unprecedented part of that promise - they would have to include an editor for the XML data (since Civ3 had an editor to modify the data now handled in XML files).

Although, I suppose unprecedented could also mean "worst ever", but I am going to assume that is not what they are aiming for.

 

[Valkrionn]

At the risk of repeating myself then ... you are STILL missing the point.

The point being that one of the advertised selling points of ciV IS that it WILL offer "unprecedented modding tools". And if they want to live up to the unprecedented part of that promise - they would have to include an editor for the XML data (since Civ3 had an editor to modify the data now handled in XML files).

Although, I suppose unprecedented could also mean "worst ever", but I am going to assume that is not what they are aiming for.

Unprecedented does not, in any way, mean "ill-advised wastes of time that were dropped a decade ago".

How in the hell is a repeat of something available in civ3, and dropped (for what I feel are good reasons, as I've explained) from civ4, unprecedented?

Unprecedented means it is, well, unprecedented! Never been done! Completely new! It does not mean "Hey, we dropped this in the last game generation, but we're bringing it back!". So no, they do not need a simple editor to keep that promise. In fact, I'd prefer they do NOT have one, given the ease with which xml can be modified. It is flatout not worth the development time, unless it can control every other aspect of mod creation. And even then, I'd keep it text based!

Have faith that there will be tools. Hell, there may even BE an editor; But if so, I hope it is in the vein of a mod creator, not simply a GUI for xml (basically: Useful, vs absolutely ing pointless ).

 

[EmperorFool]

The point being that one of the advertised selling points of ciV IS that it WILL offer "unprecedented modding tools". And if they want to live up to the unprecedented part of that promise - they would have to include an editor for the XML data (since Civ3 had an editor to modify the data now handled in XML files).

Supplying a modding tool that was just like the one included in Civ3 would be the exact opposite of unprecedented ("having no previous example"). I addressed why the tools that they have confirmed to exist are unprecedented, yet you ignore them.

This proves to me that you are simply trolling. Good luck in life, my friend.

 

[SJSerio]

Unprecedented does not, in any way, mean "ill-advised wastes of time that were dropped a decade ago".

How in the hell is a repeat of something available in civ3, and dropped (for what I feel are good reasons, as I've explained) from civ4, unprecedented?

Unprecedented means it is, well, unprecedented! Never been done! Completely new! It does not mean "Hey, we dropped this in the last game generation, but we're bringing it back!". So no, they do not need a simple editor to keep that promise. In fact, I'd prefer they do NOT have one, given the ease with which xml can be modified. It is flatout not worth the development time, unless it can control every other aspect of mod creation. And even then, I'd keep it text based!

Have faith that there will be tools. Hell, there may even BE an editor; But if so, I hope it is in the vein of a mod creator, not simply a GUI for xml (basically: Useful, vs absolutely ing pointless ).

"Unprecedented Modding Tools" means that there will be TOOLS that the modder can use to create mods. TOOLS is a key word here. An editor is a TOOL. XML files are not!!!

Being as I still have to shower and finish getting ready for work, I will have to respond to the rest of these posts later tonight.

 

[moopoo]

Before (or is it too late for that?) this goes too crazy, 2K/firaxis haven't made any announcements regarding modding yet. specifically, what, if any, modding tools will be available. A thread now a month or two old seemed to suggest there might be some kind of IDE for Lua, for example.

 

[CyberChrist]

Unprecedented does indeed mean "never been done before", but it also implies worse or better than ever before.

So if you do not at least included every usefull tool like they (at least) were in previous versions then by definition it can't be better than ever before - it can only be worse.

 

[Dale]

Unprecedented can also mean marketing spiel. They said the same thing in the marketing spiel for Civ4 Colonization.