Modding Speculation

[Szpilman]

Is it a habit of trolls to completely ignore good points by someone such as one of the most influential modders in the community?

Making a tool that made an extremely simple operation slightly easier would be far from unprecedented. What I consider unprecedented are the in-game mod marketplace and ModBuddy which will create a mod installer for you.

Do you have any idea how many days (weeks? maybe) I burned setting up BUG's install script and even more answering questions by users who couldn't figure out how to use it? Not to mention dealing with the different install paths of the various package versions (regular, Complete, Gold, Steam, and Direct2Drive).

Not having to deal with any of that nonsense would be unprecedented. Nay, it would be a ing miracle.

Oh, wait, it is.

Is that ModBuddy helper confirmed, by the way? Sounds too neat!
Still, for the angry posters, I'd think a post like the above would make you think that there may be actual unprecedent tools (and the in-game browser is one already) to justify their claim, instead of something that didn't make the cut from Civ3 to Civ4.

Edit: And also, haven't seen your rebutal to why the free version of XMLSpy won't do it (not that I have checked it myself).

 

[Szpilman]

I think it's going to be a lot harder for non-professionals to pick up Lua, but I really hope I'm wrong. For example, I've pointed many new modders at HTTLACS, and they've been able to jump in to modding. I read the Lua book and the reference, and still don't have a good feel for the language. Clearly this will improve once we get out hands on the running Civ5 code.

Related question: do you think HTTLACS C++ a good intro to the language for the purposes of getting into SDK modding? The closest I know is C#, which I know to be largely different too (more to Java than C++).

 

[dagriggstar]

xml is so easy. I mean
control + f
search "<name of unit/building/civic/policy etc. here>"
if neccissary, search for tag
change number

In any case, its more the content of these files that I'm interested in. I'd like (if possible) avoid lua (ie avoid an actual programming language) to make the changes I'd like to make. This is especially true with unique abilities now, I hope that I won't have to learn lua to implement different abilities (for that to happen, there probably has to be some "unused abilities" programmed into the xml, which I doubt will happen but was present in civ 4)

 

[CyberChrist]

As far as the mod packing tool then I seem to recall reading that something to that effect will indeed be available to conform with their modular DLC approach - whether it will work as an installer as such is anyones guess.

While I agree this is a good addition, it just wont help people that are daunted by XML to get an easy start on doing some modding of their own. In fact most will be (some already are) put off modding altogether, if faced with the prospect of having to fiddle with XML at all.

Personally then I use UltraEdit for pretty much everything (XML, Python, C++ etc. you name it), but even though that works extremely well then it would still be faster handling the XML data with a dedicated editor - not to mention safer (assuming build in cross referenced XML validity checking).

 

[Szpilman]

As far as the mod packing tool then I seem to recall reading that something to that effect will indeed be available to conform with their modular DLC approach - whether it will work as an installer as such is anyones guess.

While I agree this is a good addition, it just wont help people that are daunted by XML to get an easy start on doing some modding of their own. In fact most will be (some already are) put off modding altogether, if faced with the prospect of having to fiddle with XML at all.

Personally then I use UltraEdit for pretty much everything (XML, Python, C++ etc. you name it), but even though that works extremely well then it would still be faster handling the XML data with a dedicated editor - not to mention safer (assuming build in cross referenced XML validity checking).

I think XMLSpy and Visual Studio 2008/2010 C++ count as good dedicated editors for those languages, and for Lua they have hinted on a custom made IDE, which may be a great modding tool to put under unprecedent.

 

[Afforess]

Wow, I'm glad I went to sleep early. I would have gotten so many infractions responding to these trolls...

 

[The_J]

Moderator Action: Not to mention: Calling someone a troll is trolling itself. Refrain from doing so. I did not handle out any warning because i know most persons here, and i know everyone here is reasonable, so i hope this notice is enoug.


And about the Unprecedented Modding Tools...my good, we get:
- Stand alone world builder. On the images, this thingy looks already mighty
- Automatic translation tool
- Civ4 map conversion tool

How much more unprecedented do you want it?

 

[Kruelgor]

Well, one thing is for sure. It's nice to see so many people interested in modding CiV 5. This should be the best CiV ever.

 

[Valkrionn]

"Unprecedented Modding Tools" means that there will be TOOLS that the modder can use to create mods. TOOLS is a key word here. An editor is a TOOL. XML files are not!!!

Being as I still have to shower and finish getting ready for work, I will have to respond to the rest of these posts later tonight.

Was it ever stated what kind of tools will be available? There are excellent tools that we know will be provided. They are more than able to cover that line, without an xml editor.

Again: Notepad is an xml editor! You could teach a 5 year old to modify xml. It is purely data, and held in text form. It is in no way difficult, and any time spent on a dedicated editor is time spent away from things which are useful.

Unprecedented does indeed mean "never been done before", but it also implies worse or better than ever before.

So if you do not at least included every usefull tool like they (at least) were in previous versions then by definition it can't be better than ever before - it can only be worse.

Um. No. That is pure fallacy.

1. As I've stated, a purely graphical editor is virtually useless for many of the files. An editor would only be useful if it can do far more than modify xml, and even then, should leave the xml in text form!
   • By which I mean, auto-create new xml files for mods, have autosuggestions for tag names, etc. Still text, but useful features.
2. Not including outdated, unnecessary tools does not make it 'worse' than before. If that was the case, civ4 would have been 'worse' at modding than civ3! And we all know that is NOT the case.

xml is so easy. I mean
control + f
search "<name of unit/building/civic/policy etc. here>"
if neccissary, search for tag
change number

In any case, its more the content of these files that I'm interested in. I'd like (if possible) avoid lua (ie avoid an actual programming language) to make the changes I'd like to make. This is especially true with unique abilities now, I hope that I won't have to learn lua to implement different abilities (for that to happen, there probably has to be some "unused abilities" programmed into the xml, which I doubt will happen but was present in civ 4)

Heh. I tried to make that exact argument, and I 'missed the point'. There is simply no satisfying these people.

As far as the mod packing tool then I seem to recall reading that something to that effect will indeed be available to conform with their modular DLC approach - whether it will work as an installer as such is anyones guess.

While I agree this is a good addition, it just wont help people that are daunted by XML to get an easy start on doing some modding of their own. In fact most will be (some already are) put off modding altogether, if faced with the prospect of having to fiddle with XML at all.

Personally then I use UltraEdit for pretty much everything (XML, Python, C++ etc. you name it), but even though that works extremely well then it would still be faster handling the XML data with a dedicated editor - not to mention safer (assuming build in cross referenced XML validity checking).

Why would it need to work as an installer? We know there will be an ingame database. You download from it, and it is installed automatically. All it needs to do is pack it into a form usable by the database.

While on that subject: What all is known about modbuddy? I haven't been able to find anything.

And like I said... If you can't edit xml, something is very, very wrong. And you want 'safer' to mean tag validity? As in, make sure you do not make typos in tags? Download Notepad++ (which the majority of us use, for xml and python) and turn on autocomplete. Done.

Wow, I'm glad I went to sleep early. I would have gotten so many infractions responding to these trolls...

I'm kinda surprised I don't have any, actually.

Moderator Action: Not to mention: Calling someone a troll is trolling itself. Refrain from doing so. I did not handle out any warning because i know most persons here, and i know everyone here is reasonable, so i hope this notice is enoug.


And about the Unprecedented Modding Tools...my good, we get:
- Stand alone world builder. On the images, this thingy looks already mighty
- Automatic translation tool
- Civ4 map conversion tool

How much more unprecedented do you want it?

Well, that would be why.

I agree. We know the tools will exist. Just because they have not wasted time on an XML GUI, doesn't mean the game does not have unprecedented tools.

 

[RogerBacon]

At the risk of repeating myself then ... you are STILL missing the point.

The point being that one of the advertised selling points of ciV IS that it WILL offer "unprecedented modding tools". And if they want to live up to the unprecedented part of that promise - they would have to include an editor for the XML data (since Civ3 had an editor to modify the data now handled in XML files).

I am quite glad they're not including an editor. Editors have limits and stifle creativity. Civ4 became the most editable game ever because they exposed so much of the functionality through the Python scripting and the C++ API. THAT is what makes a game truely moddable, not some little ui or game editor.

I have been a professional software engineer for 10 years running now so maybe I'm a little biased in favor of code over restrictive editors. The only place editors help is when you need to visualize something, like working with the map and we had a great map editor in Civ 4 so I'm sure we will have one in Civ5 as well.

 

[Valkrionn]

I agree completely, and have argued that point. Won't be paid any mind.

 

[CyberChrist]

And about the Unprecedented Modding Tools...my good, we get:
- Stand alone world builder. On the images, this thingy looks already mighty
not really unprecedented though
- Automatic translation tool
I must confess ignorance - what this is supposed to translate?
- Civ4 map conversion tool
sounds cool, that would qualify

How much more unprecedented do you want it?

An easy to use XML data editor (a'la civ3 editor) to help streamline the normally tedious process of XML editing (especially for the bigger mods/SDK changes and the XMLphobic would-be modders) would go a long way.

Anyway, this entire debate may very well be academic since this thread (with excerpts from an interview on a german site) mentions a game editor as well as a Modbuilder/-browser for packing/installing mods.

There may be hope for us all yet.

 

[TheLopez]

I am quite glad they're not including an editor. Editors have limits and stifle creativity. Civ4 became the most editable game ever because they exposed so much of the functionality through the Python scripting and the C++ API. THAT is what makes a game truely moddable, not some little ui or game editor.

I have been a professional software engineer for 10 years running now so maybe I'm a little biased in favor of code over restrictive editors. The only place editors help is when you need to visualize something, like working with the map and we had a great map editor in Civ 4 so I'm sure we will have one in Civ5 as well.

Completely agree with you RogerBacon...

oh and nice to see you again... its been a while

I feel like the old gang is slowly coming back Now where's Grave and Sevo? Maybe Jeckel will come back too

 

[CyberChrist]

I am quite glad they're not including an editor. Editors have limits and stifle creativity. Civ4 became the most editable game ever because they exposed so much of the functionality through the Python scripting and the C++ API. THAT is what makes a game truely moddable, not some little ui or game editor.

There is zero reason that such an editor would stiffle anything. It would merely follow the given XML schema and display any user added fields accordingly. Python/LUA and SDK availability have zero to do with any of this since they need to follow the XML structure as well - although I suppose they could add modular LUA script support to such an editor as well ... if they were ambitious enough.

 

[Szpilman]

What about using C# & LINQ for fiddling with XML? Defeats the purpose of running away from code (as it's diving right into it ). But hell, is it fun.

 

[Valkrionn]

An easy to use XML data editor (a'la civ3 editor) to help streamline the normally tedious process of XML editing (especially for the bigger mods/SDK changes and the XMLphobic would-be modders) would go a long way.

Anyway, this entire debate may very well be academic since this thread (with excerpts from an interview on a german site) mentions a game editor as well as a Modbuilder/-browser for packing/installing mods.

There may be hope for us all yet.

I would hope any editor would be text based.

As I've said, numerous times, with no response from you: Any GUI-based editor makes modding take longer. It does not, in any way, take less time!!

There is zero reason that such an editor would stiffle anything. It would merely follow the given XML schema and display any user added fields accordingly. Python/LUA and SDK availability have zero to do with any of this since they need to follow the XML structure as well - although I suppose they could add modular LUA script support to such an editor as well ... if they were ambitious enough.

As I've said: Any gui that has to display all available tags (several hundred in some files) will slow modding to a crawl as you navigate through it. It is a horrible, horrible trap.

Now, a decent text-based editor using some form of autocomplete and data checking... That could be useful. But again, only worth the opportunity cost if it does far more than modify xml. Let's wait and see what this editor is.

 

[CyberChrist]

@Valkrionn:
That may be your experience and opinion - it is not mine.

 

[Afforess]

@Valkrionn:
That may be your experience and opinion - it is not mine.

Not just Valkrionn's experience, Mine, EF's, and several others. But yes, you are free to dismiss us; after all, it's not like we know anything about modding, right?

 

[Valkrionn]

Thanks for the support, Afforess.

 

[The_J]

Guys, don't argue.
Here are 2 groups, computer scientists, and the other people.
And you don't understand each other.

@scientists:
Asking the users not to have a GUI is like asking them to use a command line tool. That will not work, and i guess you can understand why.

@non scientists:
Modding is partially science. The BUG mod is not less complicated than civ itself, it's just smaller. You can't mod something like that if you don't put a serious, big amount of time and brain matter into it, and sure not everybody will be able to do it, no matter what tools you get.

- Automatic translation tool
I must confess ignorance - what this is supposed to translate?
- Civ4 map conversion tool
sounds cool, that would qualify

The translation tool is for text files, it will use the google API to translate text XMLs in the other default languages. You'll now say "OMG, google translations are crap!"...yes, sure. But for single names, single words it will probably work. It's not meant to translate whole civilopedia entries, only the basic things, for sure.

And the map conversion tool is imho really pretty cool .