Sometimes it is hard to tell, they use a lot of the same methods
(Militarism, Terror, Secret police etc.) Communism has been
highjacked and used as a name for military dictatorships.
Communism has never been practiced by a modern state.
Modern Communist Parties.
- Thread starter History_Buff
- Start date
Sometimes it is hard to tell, they use a lot of the same methods
(Militarism, Terror, Secret police etc.) Communism has been
highjacked and used as a name for military dictatorships.
Communism has never been practiced by a modern state.
That is true....but there are many people willing to give it a try. Attempt to rise above human nature and make equality for all.
I, for one, am willing to take a step down, if everyone else gets a step up! And there are many others willing too....there is just no outlet for us to do it in an effective way!
It's sooooo fustrating.
Pellaken
The one and only.
*sigh*
the modern communist countries are:
China
Cuba
Mongolia
Laos
Veitnam
Cambodia
North Korea
out of them:
North Korea is stalinist communist
Cambodia, Veitnam, and Laos are counter-reforrmed communist
China and Mongolia are reformed commuinist
Cuba is the closest to a REAL communist country around.
there are a few quazi-communist countries:
about half the former USSR, parts of africa (angloa, mozambique and more) and parts of central and south america.
the problem is the number of communist parties
theres the socailist communists -Russia, Canada
the soviet communists -Canada, Russia
the nationalist communists {who are like soviet communists, only for thier own country.} -China, USA
the modern communist countries are:
China
Cuba
Mongolia
Laos
Veitnam
Cambodia
North Korea
out of them:
North Korea is stalinist communist
Cambodia, Veitnam, and Laos are counter-reforrmed communist
China and Mongolia are reformed commuinist
Cuba is the closest to a REAL communist country around.
there are a few quazi-communist countries:
about half the former USSR, parts of africa (angloa, mozambique and more) and parts of central and south america.
the problem is the number of communist parties
theres the socailist communists -Russia, Canada
the soviet communists -Canada, Russia
the nationalist communists {who are like soviet communists, only for thier own country.} -China, USA
You've answered the question as to why communism cannot exist in the world right here. You and some others are willing to take that step "down." I'm not willing. Most of my friends aren't willing. And we won't ever be willing to do it. I don't care for people who slack off and live on the public dole. The only way you can get me to "buy" into a communist system is to force me into it, at which point you're no better than Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Kim, etc.
Go find an uninhabited piece of land and turn that into your "utopia". Go with all of your socialist buddies from Sweden and France. Take some communists from Mongolia. Build your society. You know what's gonna happen? The smartest and hardest working members of your society are going to get pissed off that they're providing so much more to society than everyone else and aren't receiving any increase in compensation for it. Maybe not the 1st generation, but certainly the 2nd and 3rd. Then they're going to try to leave. If you let them, your society falls apart. If you don't, you're no better than the dictators above.
Time to give up the pipe dream fellas.
Greadius
:yeah:
Neither am I. Two-car garage or bust
Or they do recieve compensation, in which case they become more equal than others
Of course, how many smartest and hardest working are there going to be? First, we know they are Communists so strike the first one. Second, if you stick a big sign outside a place that says [/b] FREE STUFF , do you think you're going to draw in people looking to earn anything?
ComradeDavo
Formerly God
It is my view that many people feel that they have to hate us communists, they feel that they must resist our viewpoints and they simply refuse to listen to our reasoning. I think many people fail to understand communism, and fail to realise that it is an economic theory, not a government type.
As usual, CornMaster, you are the voice of wisdom
As usual, CornMaster, you are the voice of wisdom
Originally posted by ComradeDavo
It is my view that many people feel that they have to hate us communists, they feel that they must resist our viewpoints and they simply refuse to listen to our reasoning. I think many people fail to understand communism, and fail to realise that it is an economic theory, not a government type.
As usual, CornMaster, you are the voice of wisdom
It is an economic theory that necessitates a government for it to work. Please convince me why I, as a freedom loving capitalist, should adhere to communist ideals.
EdwardTking
Deity
Communism has both:
theoretical weaknesses (holes in the ideology)
practical weaknesses (human nature)
Greadius stated:
"how come individual idiots can't ruin capitalist systems,
but individual idiots can ruin Communism?"
This is worth thinking through. In a capitalist system;
decision making is dispersed. If the CEO of a large
company gets it seriously wrong and isn't sacked; the
company may be bankrupt but other companies survive.
If the GenSec of a communist state gets it seriously wrong;
it seriously weakens the entire communist state.
Communism by concentrating decision making by
central planning increases the consequences of error.
Communists try to get around this by being very
cautious and conservative which stiffles innovation.
In a capitalist ountry, there might be perhaps 20
companies in a sector. Each can experiment, trying
different ideas. The ideas that don't work can be
quickly dropped while successful ideas are copied.
Communist socities have great difficulty with this.
Species development may proceed by asexual
or sexual reproduction. Asexual production
is much more efficient in churning out the
same individuals; but less supportive of variety.
If you regard ideas as analagous to genes;
then you can consider development of
communism (as like an asexual idea flow)
contrasting capitalism (as like a sexual: idea flow).
It is interesting to note that where there is a
simple problem and a simple solution asexual
species thrive, but sexual species thrive in diversity.
Consider:
Russia: simple problem : invading Germans
simple solution: lots of standard Tanks, Aircraft
China: simple problem: overpopulation
simple solution: one child policy
Vietnam: simple problem: divided into
simple solution: fight, fight, fight
However when the problems became more complex
in the late 1960s and 1970s; the asexual innovation
permitted by central planning proved unsatisfactory.
theoretical weaknesses (holes in the ideology)
practical weaknesses (human nature)
Greadius stated:
"how come individual idiots can't ruin capitalist systems,
but individual idiots can ruin Communism?"
This is worth thinking through. In a capitalist system;
decision making is dispersed. If the CEO of a large
company gets it seriously wrong and isn't sacked; the
company may be bankrupt but other companies survive.
If the GenSec of a communist state gets it seriously wrong;
it seriously weakens the entire communist state.
Communism by concentrating decision making by
central planning increases the consequences of error.
Communists try to get around this by being very
cautious and conservative which stiffles innovation.
In a capitalist ountry, there might be perhaps 20
companies in a sector. Each can experiment, trying
different ideas. The ideas that don't work can be
quickly dropped while successful ideas are copied.
Communist socities have great difficulty with this.
Species development may proceed by asexual
or sexual reproduction. Asexual production
is much more efficient in churning out the
same individuals; but less supportive of variety.
If you regard ideas as analagous to genes;
then you can consider development of
communism (as like an asexual idea flow)
contrasting capitalism (as like a sexual: idea flow).
It is interesting to note that where there is a
simple problem and a simple solution asexual
species thrive, but sexual species thrive in diversity.
Consider:
Russia: simple problem : invading Germans
simple solution: lots of standard Tanks, Aircraft
China: simple problem: overpopulation
simple solution: one child policy
Vietnam: simple problem: divided into
simple solution: fight, fight, fight
However when the problems became more complex
in the late 1960s and 1970s; the asexual innovation
permitted by central planning proved unsatisfactory.
Hitro
Feistus Raclettus
I think your examples don't prove your point (which may be right despite that). But first, the measures in your examples were successful, so that would mean this thinking is actually very effective.
And more important, it's easy to find such examples for Capitalist countries as well, here an example:
USA: simple problem: terrorist attack
simple solution: "War on terror"
Now you may say the terror attacks were no simple problem, which is true, but if you call the largest invasion in world's history a simple problem it's really hard to find a complicated one.
Reichsmarshal
Warlord
Even when implemented like Karl Marx advocated, communism sucks. There is no "utopic" system. No economic system or government will ever establish a perfect or anywhere near perfect world.
If it was a global, fascsist (how else would it enforce its redisribution?) system, it would be even worse than it already is.
Sending Lenin back to Russia was the most effective thing the Germans did to take out Russia. Russia was on the way to be becoming a powerful country (eventually).
If it was a global, fascsist (how else would it enforce its redisribution?) system, it would be even worse than it already is.
Sending Lenin back to Russia was the most effective thing the Germans did to take out Russia. Russia was on the way to be becoming a powerful country (eventually).
The way I see it right now.....
USA - Capitalism
Everything is driven by the profit motif....In most industry this has positive effects. Higher production rates, and higher quality goods.
The downside being an uncontrolled market place allowing business to control the government/the people.
Examples: Since protecting the environment costs money, businesses won't do it, it cuts into profits.
Developing other energy sources, cuts into the very powerful oil conglomerents, which crush any attempts.
Businesses keep the wages as low as possible. Higher wages cuts into profits.
Hospitals and medication companies loose money is you get better. Thus there is no incentive to cure you. And they will try nurmous treatments until your out of money. Also, medical research has slowed/switched to consumer medical research. Like dieting pills, constapation, etc...in otherwords medications that don't cure a problem, and are sellable to the masses. Instead of curing Aids/Cancer/etc.... Once it's cured they make no money.
People also don't care about other people like they should. Since profit is based on aquiring things from other people, sharing is a against this general flow of things.
Communism on the other hand.
Promotes sharing, and equality.
Hospitals would run better because the doctors are paid regardless, and there is a line of people behind you, so they might as well cure you. The more people they can cure, the more time they have off, and still get paid.
The government can force business/industry to adhear to national policies. Protecting the environment, alternate energy, you name it. The government has companies on a leash.
Since everyone is equal, they all get paid the same. Regardless of race, sex, religious belief, etc...
The downsides are of course, getting people to let go of their greed, and there "status" as higher members of society.
Motivation/Productivity can be hurt if people don't work at their full potential. If one slacks off, everyone elses think they can too.
Well, that about finishes my speech for today. I would like to add on my last note....."Motivation/Productivity can be hurt if people don't work at their full potential. If one slacks off, everyone elses think they can too."
Where I work, we have the "D" Shift which runs Wed. - Sun 6 PM - 6 AM. They are the largest group of slackers I've ever seen.
They hardly do any work! When I get there in the morning to do my round and collect the parts (normally takes 20-25 minutes) it takes about 45-60 minutes because every second machine I come to, I have to unclog, or sort parts, or put it on hold because of the size/color/part errors. Then I give the report to the Superviser of my shift....then he spends like 2-3 hours fixing problems of the last shift.
Now I work in Quality Control....and the Quality Control guy we have working at night is a drug adict, who WON'T DO HIS WORK! And has been absent 17 times so far this year! But they won't fire him because they spent 4 months trying to find someone for the position I have now. They don't want to go through that again.
The company has also lost money over the last 18 years. But we won't go into that.....needless to say, higher productivity doesn't work if you workers are lazy, and your management sucks.
And that same condition that doesn't work where I work, is why Communism fails. Motivation to work just isn't there. And management is/has been bad.
USA - Capitalism
Everything is driven by the profit motif....In most industry this has positive effects. Higher production rates, and higher quality goods.
The downside being an uncontrolled market place allowing business to control the government/the people.
Examples: Since protecting the environment costs money, businesses won't do it, it cuts into profits.
Developing other energy sources, cuts into the very powerful oil conglomerents, which crush any attempts.
Businesses keep the wages as low as possible. Higher wages cuts into profits.
Hospitals and medication companies loose money is you get better. Thus there is no incentive to cure you. And they will try nurmous treatments until your out of money. Also, medical research has slowed/switched to consumer medical research. Like dieting pills, constapation, etc...in otherwords medications that don't cure a problem, and are sellable to the masses. Instead of curing Aids/Cancer/etc.... Once it's cured they make no money.
People also don't care about other people like they should. Since profit is based on aquiring things from other people, sharing is a against this general flow of things.
Communism on the other hand.
Promotes sharing, and equality.
Hospitals would run better because the doctors are paid regardless, and there is a line of people behind you, so they might as well cure you. The more people they can cure, the more time they have off, and still get paid.
The government can force business/industry to adhear to national policies. Protecting the environment, alternate energy, you name it. The government has companies on a leash.
Since everyone is equal, they all get paid the same. Regardless of race, sex, religious belief, etc...
The downsides are of course, getting people to let go of their greed, and there "status" as higher members of society.
Motivation/Productivity can be hurt if people don't work at their full potential. If one slacks off, everyone elses think they can too.
Well, that about finishes my speech for today. I would like to add on my last note....."Motivation/Productivity can be hurt if people don't work at their full potential. If one slacks off, everyone elses think they can too."
Where I work, we have the "D" Shift which runs Wed. - Sun 6 PM - 6 AM. They are the largest group of slackers I've ever seen.
They hardly do any work! When I get there in the morning to do my round and collect the parts (normally takes 20-25 minutes) it takes about 45-60 minutes because every second machine I come to, I have to unclog, or sort parts, or put it on hold because of the size/color/part errors. Then I give the report to the Superviser of my shift....then he spends like 2-3 hours fixing problems of the last shift.
Now I work in Quality Control....and the Quality Control guy we have working at night is a drug adict, who WON'T DO HIS WORK! And has been absent 17 times so far this year! But they won't fire him because they spent 4 months trying to find someone for the position I have now. They don't want to go through that again.
The company has also lost money over the last 18 years. But we won't go into that.....needless to say, higher productivity doesn't work if you workers are lazy, and your management sucks.
And that same condition that doesn't work where I work, is why Communism fails. Motivation to work just isn't there. And management is/has been bad.
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
Maybe cancer researchers, oil producers, Phillip Morris, and the health companies should sign a merger.
Guy drives to store,
Guy buys cigarettes,
Guy gets lung cancer,
Guy drives to hospital,
Guy gets cure from doctor,
Guy drives home.
Rinse and repeat
Guy drives to store,
Guy buys cigarettes,
Guy gets lung cancer,
Guy drives to hospital,
Guy gets cure from doctor,
Guy drives home.
Rinse and repeat
Pellaken
The one and only.
communisim fails for many reasons. its not ALL good, nor is capatlisim all bad.
see my ultra-mega-super-real-big post, to come out soon.
see my ultra-mega-super-real-big post, to come out soon.
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
Communism could in theory work, but could only be applied if all parties involved agreed on that particular governing system.
If 55 percent of people believed in Communism, it wouldn't work.
If 70 percent of people believed in Communism, it wouldn't work.
If 99 percent of people believed in Communism, it wouldn't work.
Communism can only ideally exist under the absolute partition of a Communist state from a Capitalist state, and that'll probably never happen.
If 55 percent of people believed in Communism, it wouldn't work.
If 70 percent of people believed in Communism, it wouldn't work.
If 99 percent of people believed in Communism, it wouldn't work.
Communism can only ideally exist under the absolute partition of a Communist state from a Capitalist state, and that'll probably never happen.
Greadius
:yeah:
Business controls the people? Who controls the business', little green men?
And business' spend a lot of money to clean up their messes, due to tax incentives, enviromental protection laws, and good public relations. However, there isn't an enviroment uber-allas mentality so anyone that has a hatred for business and a love for trees sees conflict.
Examples, please? I haven't heard of other serious attempts... except from the tin-foil hat crowd.
If I worked in the medical field I'd be insulted by your pessimism for the proffession and their intent. Capitalism doesn't strip a person of humanity.
American's give a higher proportion of their income to charity than any other nation. American's volunteer for community service at a higher rate than any other nation.Greed at its finest, 'eh?
There is a difference between promoting and forcing. Forced sharing is another way of saying stealing.
A line! As long as you don't die waiting in line you're fine!! What happened to the line? Hey, and if they don't cure ANYONE and just to a shoddy job, they STILL get paid. Heck, they get paid as much for doing warehouse security and sleeping on the job; screw this doctor gig.
Ever been to a Communist country?
The pains of a capitalist economy and full employment! In other nations they have huge unemployment; in America they hire an incompetent drug addict to fill a position they are so desperate for employees.
I thought something smelled fishy... how can the company be in business if it has lost money for 18 years? Is it government subsidized??
According to everything I know about capitalism, if you loose money you go out of business; that one must be artificially propped up (like state run industries would be), which would explain that complete incompetance and indifference from management.
Pellaken
The one and only.
If 55 percent of people believed in Capatlisim, it wouldn't work.
If 70 percent of people believed in Capatlisim, it wouldn't work.
If 99 percent of people believed in Capatlisim, it wouldn't work.
your point? nethier system, capatlist or socailist works. its a combo of both that works. even the USSR wasent 100% communist (as I'm cure cornmaster will tell you) and the USA isent 100% capatalist eathier.
Excatly. Only when they will profit from it some way. If there is no incentive...they could care less about their grandchildren.
I believe it was in the 60ies that a company built the Steam Powered car. This would obviously crush the oil companies.....so they bought all the patents, and didn't allow anyone to construct it. Such a shame....we could have flying cars and robot maids now.
I should have been clearer....a person has intergrity, intelligence, and honor. People don't. I was refering more to insurance companies...like HMO's that only allow so much treatment, and are constantally reduce coverage while increasing preimums. Most doctors do their job because they are afriad of mal-practice suits.
And some aren't even afriad of that.Doctors that have try integrity don't make the big bucks...they work in small walk-in clinics, of foregin countries.....places normal doctors don't want to work because the pay is low, and conditions bad. I'll help mankind as long as I keep my 3 cars and mansion.
Same thing happens in capitalist America too....waiting for a blood transfusion...oh...you don't have insurance.....please wait while we check it out...then your dead!
Are you dense? A garabage man and a doctor would not get equal wages. In my Communism (and it only makes sence to me....) Everyone gets the same basic things. House, food, clothes for an entire year. If you work at a job deamed "harder" or "more skillful" or "more essential" then you would get paid more. Instead of an extra $5000 a year over the necessities for the garbage man, the Doctor might get $7000.
So there would still be incentive.....just everyone would start at the same level...and could make themself into what they want.
The key is to let go of your Capitalist thinking that money is needed for everything.
Money doesn't work in Communism. And if you can't get past that step...then you will never get Communism. Not saying that your stuck of something....it's just a general FYI.
Sure..Canada.
At least....that's what some Americans tell me.
You think that is good?
He should be forced into rehab, and stripped of his job until he's better. I can think of many people for that job....but the problem at work is incompetent management...more on that in a minute.
You see...another wonder of American Capitalism.
The Haas family owns many businesses in the US. Where I work is one of them. When the parents got older, they turned the businesses over to the kids. One kid got the auto manufacturing plants, the other got the plastics making plants. The Auto Company has been HUGELY successful. Going from 1 plant to 9. The Plastics Company is essentially a write off for the family. Shrinking from 3 plants to 1. If our company makes money....then they have to pay taxes on that money. So our company buys stuff...(like warehouses) and sells it to the other company for $1. Nice and legal.....but very unethicial.....like most of Capitalist America.
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