Modified Scenarios Workshop

[Fairline]

Did you go under a different nick back in the 'Poly days then Patine? I don't remember you being active during JimPanze's time...

 

[Patine]

Did you go under a different nick back in the 'Poly days then Patine? I don't remember you being active during JimPanze's time...

No, I was Patine. That's where I started my Korea scenario, and started my Empire of the Rising Sun scenario (which I'd really like to finish, and get some of my planned expansions, improvements, and unit updates done for it, especially given Agricola had done so much playtesting for that one in the day). Also, Curt, McMonkey, Broken Erika, tanelorn, and techumseh remember me from there. I had just taken a several year break from Civ before the big migration to CivFanatics. I just wasn't as prolific as many for churning out scenarios - I only had a few notable scenario creation projects in the day.

 

[tootall_2012]

Hi Patine,

I think you'll find that Jim's scenario isn't necessarily particularly big but very interesting nonetheless. You don't have many units to achieve your goals so you have to use them judiciously. With the more realistic city objective conditions and reduced timeframe I believe you should find it quite challenging as well.

 

[minipow01]

Hi all,

Captain Nemo's classic World War II scenario “SECOND FRONT” has been converted for ToT and can be downloaded from the CivFanatics download section located here.

Hi tootall,
Thanks so much for converting this scenario! It's a bit more time-consuming than your Battle of France scenario, but still very enjoyable. Captain Nemo brilliantly exploited many of the lesser-known civ2 tricks when designing Second Front. At first, I was puzzled as to how my combat engineers (with a measly attack rating of 8) could effortlessly take out the hardened Blockhaus (with a defense rating of 16 and 6 hit points.) Eventually I realized that combat engineers occupy the partisan slot! Also, his use of hang gliders to transport air units was simply groundbreaking.

 

[CurtSibling]

Alex and Nemo were two of the greatest CIV2 contributors of all time.

 

[techumseh]

Hi tootall,
Thanks so much for converting this scenario! It's a bit more time-consuming than your Battle of France scenario, but still very enjoyable. Captain Nemo brilliantly exploited many of the lesser-known civ2 tricks when designing Second Front. At first, I was puzzled as to how my combat engineers (with a measly attack rating of 8) could effortlessly take out the hardened Blockhaus (with a defense rating of 16 and 6 hit points.) Eventually I realized that combat engineers occupy the partisan slot! Also, his use of hang gliders to transport air units was simply groundbreaking.

I'm curious about how the partisan slot affects the combat ability of combat engineers.

 

[minipow01]

The unit is named "combat engineers", but it's really an offensive unit that happens to occupy the partisan slot. This gives the unit a special advantage when it attacks any unit with an attack value = 0. As the Marquis noted in his combat guide: "i) Partisans (or any unit in the partisan slot of units.gif) gain an attack advantage against non-combat units (any with attack value = 0). The partisans’ attack value is increased eightfold (x8)"

This feature was cleverly exploited by Captain Nemo, as bunkers fall under the category of "non-combat unit". The civ2 developers had obviously intended to give partisans a bonus against civilian sympathizers (i.e., settlers, merchants, and engineers), not a tough defensive unit!

 

[techumseh]

No Sh*t! That solves a vexing design problem for Seelowe. The Brandenburgers are moving to a new slot. To think Nemo released that scenario 18 years ago! It makes me realize there's still a lot I need to learn about this game. Thanks!

 

[tootall_2012]

Hi minipow01,

“2194 Days” by Captain Nemo and Alex Mor was actually the very first Civilization scenario I ever played and from that moment on I’ve been hooked to this game. These gentlemen, along with DarthVeda, to name just a few, were way ahead of their time. RedFront and Operation Herbstnebel remain masterpieces to this day (though in my very humble opinion, Catfish’s War of the Ring remains the best designed scenario of all time).

My conversion of Captain Nemo’s Second Front was my very respectful attempt to pay homage to his creative genius. I'm glad you seem to have enjoyed it. It's really an amazing scenario!

I did not realize the partisan slot gave such benefits. As Tech says we still keep learning things about this game twenty years later, which is a tribute to its designers.

A few quick questions if you’ll allow me. Did you follow the mandatory house rules for air units? If so, were they easy to follow? Did you find the game challenging (as I indicated, ToTPP’s NoStackKills feature makes it a little easier on the invasion force)?

 

[JPetroski]

Just my opinion (and one that might be based on wrong assumptions to boot), but I believe we've known about the ability to place invisible fortresses everywhere before 2nd Front came out, so if Nemo really wanted no stack kills, he'd likely have included it.

It is an easy enough thing for players to tweak on their own though if they want. Thanks for your hard work updating it!

 

[minipow01]

A few quick questions if you’ll allow me. Did you follow the mandatory house rules for air units? If so, were they easy to follow? Did you find the game challenging (as I indicated, ToTPP’s NoStackKills feature makes it a little easier on the invasion force)?

I've lately been trying to get back into these old tactical classics that, thanks to you and gapetit, are now converted to ToT. I believe Second Front is more challenging and well-balanced than Operation Herbstnebel. The excess number of units and their high movement values made managing each turn quite tedious in Herbstnebel. Second Front feels different (as it should, given the very different tactical nature of the Normandy battles). It's a real struggle to advance up the beaches, and the AI offers a strong counterattack.

I'm only on my 5th turn of Second Front, but I can tell that the road ahead will be difficult. I have followed all of the house rules - they are good ones. My air units can only attack Normandy once or twice before they must return to their British bases. I also like the NoStackKills feature. Even though it dramatically reduces attrition of my forces, it also makes it harder to wipe out the enemy. Given the large number of German units, I feel like this feature is appropriate.

One small problem I noticed is that, when the Allies capture German cities, they are able to build the Widerstandsnest unit. I believe this was an oversight.

Just my opinion (and one that might be based on wrong assumptions to boot), but I believe we've known about the ability to place invisible fortresses everywhere before 2nd Front came out, so if Nemo really wanted no stack kills, he'd likely have included it.

That may very well be true. One of the disadvantages of invisible fortresses is that it effectively doubles the defensive strength of ground units against attacking armor. Perhaps Nemo wanted to avoid this unfortunate side effect? What I like about NoStackKills is that it doesn't alter the combat stats. If it had been around in 2000, there's a good possibility Nemo would have included it.

Alex and Nemo were two of the greatest CIV2 contributors of all time.

And you, sir, have carried the torch and enlightened us ever since!

 

[JPetroski]

That may very well be true. One of the disadvantages of invisible fortresses is that it effectively doubles the defensive strength of ground units against attacking armor. Perhaps Nemo wanted to avoid this unfortunate side effect? What I like about NoStackKills is that it doesn't alter the combat stats. If it had been around in 2000, there's a good possibility Nemo would have included it.

Perhaps, but then again imagine playing Red Front with NoStackKills enabled. Would it even be playable? Attacking and destroying 1 unit vs. many (and having to choose where you stack your units and where you spread out) is one of those things that fundamentally changes the game. All playtesting the designer did is essentially outdated because and the scenario now plays differently/is not balanced as it was intended.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that these old gems are seeing new life and I really don't have any right to talk given it's not my work and I'm not the one who put in the time to bring it back to life... But as a designer, I think it's one thing to update graphics and fix a loose end/bug here and there the original designer missed. It's quite another to alter the gameplay. Is it really "Second Front" when we do that?

 

[CurtSibling]

@minipow01
You are most kind, but I am but a non-important figure among the greats of CIV2.

 

[tootall_2012]

Perhaps, but then again imagine playing Red Front with NoStackKills enabled. Would it even be playable? Attacking and destroying 1 unit vs. many (and having to choose where you stack your units and where you spread out) is one of those things that fundamentally changes the game. All playtesting the designer did is essentially outdated because and the scenario now plays differently/is not balanced as it was intended.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that these old gems are seeing new life and I really don't have any right to talk given it's not my work and I'm not the one who put in the time to bring it back to life... But as a designer, I think it's one thing to update graphics and fix a loose end/bug here and there the original designer missed. It's quite another to alter the gameplay. Is it really "Second Front" when we do that?

Hi John,

You have some very valid points. To be honest I struggled at the beginning of the conversion process for this scenario whether the 2 changes I was planning on making were right or not: i.e. removing the Hot Seat mode requirement and implementing the NoStackKills feature.

Having played the scenario in its original MGE HOT Seat mode, I knew how cumbersome and unfriendly to most players this feature was. I thought if I simply removed it by combining the two allied nations into one it would make it more accessible and palatable to most players. By adding two very simple but mandatory house rules, it would not only keep the spirit of the original design but as my play testing demonstrated have no impact on the game play or play balance itself (and had the added benefit of making it so much easier to move your air units around the map).

The NoStackKills was more problematic because I knew from my original experience how vulnerable to attack the Allied ground units were when stacked on the beaches, especially when stuck in front of heavily fortified German positions. At the same time, I felt from previous experience with the feature, that in the end it should balance out, in the sense that though the German AI could no longer kill stacks of the Allied player, the opposite was true as well.

For the most part, I felt during play testing the scenario that this held true, except in the early stages when stuck on the beaches. Hence probably my greatest transgressions of all, and which I was the most uncomfortable with, adding a few extra bunkers type units to re-establish play balance.

In the end, you are correct that it remains Captain Nemo’s creation and perhaps I took too many liberties. Perhaps I should just simply have made the graphical changes as you said, or at the very least called it “Second Front Redux”.

I thought I should at the very least explain the reasoning, rightly or wrongly, behind the changes. Certainly no disrespect was intended towards him or his design.

 

[JPetroski]

Tootall,

I hope you didn't take offense... I completely lack the skills, time, or know how to bring these back to life and wouldn't be able to play it at all without your efforts! I think Nemo would be pleased his old creation was still frustrating gamers some 18 years or so later! That's the most important thing!

I do think you're right that calling it "redux" is a pretty safe way to go about modernizing and taking advantage of new features/hindsight.

Thanks again for your efforts!

 

[minipow01]

Just to add to the discussion, I think a case can be made either way for using NoStackKills. John, you are absolutely correct that stackable terrain would change one's allocation of units and other game play decisions. The question is whether NoStackKills would give a fighting chance to the human player while also maintaining the overall level of challenge. (Has anyone actually played Second Front to the end and won it the good old-fashioned way?) In general, I am in favor of using NoStackKills when the human players' forces are outnumbered by the AI, as the latter tends to irresponsibly manage its stacks of units. However, one could argue that NoStackKills unfairly protects the Allies during the vulnerable beach landings. I guess it comes down to personal preference. Maybe tootall should not have altered the Rules.txt file in such a way. I, for one, would have experimented with NoStackKills regardless. Some might object, but I have no qualms about trying to improve an old scenario using the new ToTPP features. It's hard to guess what Nemo would have done if a similar patch was available 20 years ago. If I find the game too easy with NoStackKills, then I can just as well re-attempt the scenario without it.

 

[tootall_2012]

Hi John,

No offense taken but you had raised valid concerns which were deserving of a response. For now, I've gone ahead and renamed the conversion "Second Front Redux" in the download section, though I want to stress that this still remains Captain Nemo's creation and he deserves all the credit for this amazing scenario (if my modifications have made the scenario less appealing then the fault is mine and mine alone).

 

[gapetit]

Last version of Barbarossa:

 

[gapetit]

 

[Patine]

Is this McMonkey's Balkan Wars, or some older one from the bowels of Civ2 history?