Mods: be more specific!!

Well slow, if you didn't remind/tease SunTzu about the ban, I have reasons to believe Sun would have forgotten to ban you. :crazyeye:

Sun Tzu, do you speak seriously?
That would be amazing, I was never banned:cool:! What shall I do? Will you prevent me from posting by blocking my login, or shall I count one week myself and not to post to CivFanatics:king: ? :confused:
 
A comment about this Slowthinker, while I agree that posting cheats is fine, as does TF, but defying a forum moderator isn't, and you deserve to be banned for that.

It's not for you to decide you will ignore a moderator, even if he seems unfair or irrational.
Picture this:
A police officer stops you, and says you can't wear a white shirt (which you have on), do you tell him to p1ss off?
He can and will arrest you, even though he's completely wrong.
The same principal works here, if you see or feel your being treated unfairly, you don't defy the moderator (which you did by posting something when he said not to), you come here and make your case, or contact Thunderfall, who always listens to your concerns.

Also, those forums are the wrong place to question rules, and that is clearly written out.

I hope this explains matters from the moderation side, you must always remember that if you flaunt a moderator's authority, he has none, and the site falls to peices.
Also, moderators have feelings also, so bare that in mind.
 
OK, I'll make a reader's digest version since you said you are short on time. All my info comes from public posts. I don't know of any non-pubic exchanges...

The way I see this case is that Case reported SlowThinker to SunTzu and asked him to give Slowthinker a ban, SunTzu asked Slowthinker not to post cheats, SlowThinker refused and continued to post cheats, SunTzu then gave him a ban. Correct me if this is not the case... I don't have time to read thru the threads thoroughly.

That is not what is in the threads. I cannot speak to non-public exchanges, if any... I have not asked.

However, the thread is summarized thus:

1. A player posted some cheats. Another player asked him to erase part. One cheat was left. No mod intervention or ban.
2. Thread continued for 3 more pages.
3. Slow Thinker joind thread and posted a cheat.
4. SunTzu summarily banned SlowThinker with this message:
"Slow Thinker i'm giving you a 1 week vacation for posting ways to cheat.."
5. The above was the first Mod intervention in the thread against anyone.
6. One of the Item#1 cheats was, and still is, posted. All PBEM players have indicated it is a cheat (how to change rules.txt to get advantages).
7. No opportunity to retract or edit the post was offered in the thread; the announcement of the ban was summary and without prior warning.
8. Evidently, the post had to do with using the Civ 2 menu to load and view a password protected .mp file.


BTW, I never saw the original post, as the method was already deleted by the time I went looking for Slow Thinker to find out why he was not working on our 1-month project with Nethog & the Civ 2 Summary Packet. Slow Thinker's disappeance is how I got involved, and after my short post asking into what happened was ignored, I began reading the thread, and decided to look into it out of principle for all.


Here are some posted one-line short thoughts on this issue (cut & paste):

Academia - "how do you cheat in a PBEM game?
Darius - "it's not too damaging to mention how they do it. Atop that, it would make non-cheaters know what to look for."
Case - "I really don't think that that stuff should be publicly posted in that manner"
Duke of Marbrough - "Knowing how to do it just makes it easier for someone that is borderline to actually try it."
Germanos - "'cheats' should be listed somewhere"
Slow Thinker - "You have to say: Cheating is easy, anybody could do it if he decide."
Smash - "Posting the techniques used to cheat is good. ... you are just going to have to trust at some point."
Starlifter - "the PBEM has a real mess to clean up IMHO, if ... censorship of such discussions is for real."
Winter - "Oh yes, definitly there must be equal chances for everybody!! ... everything depends on the level of trust"
SunTzu - "I don't like people posting ways to cheat, cause many people want to find out how to cheat"
JuicyCivNewbie - "you're all wrong trying to prevent people from posting methods of cheating here."
Smash - " New players need to be informed."

To keep the post shorter, I have compiled a summary of the thread in question to enable a short read of the situation. It is atteched at the end of the post.

A little rules clarification is necessary: I have no problem at all with people posting cheats.
That one piece of information would have averted all the consternation of the PBEM people discussing the issue, and Slow Thinker would never have been banned.

Several PBEM people, with sound logic and good intentions (but bad results), did not share that view, and that is the core of what happened... some PBEM people wanted to know, and others did not want them to know. Slow Thinker then entered the thread on page 3, posted some info, and was immediately banned for 7 days, and then the issue was never clarified despite 29,000 characters of posting from me alone, not to mention the regular PBEM posters.


Anyway, let's end the debate here. There is no need to escalate this incident any further.
Actually, your statement of allowing cheats to be openly discussed and posted solves the entire dispute, I would think. All the questions I had posted are now answered except #4, which is hopefully moot from now on (about bans being applied with inequality).

PS, An overall lesson is perhaps communication: questions should be addressed when an issue is small.... this stuff began as relatively a minor issue on the 20th (well, a 7 day ban for something one mod called "good" and broke no rule is still absurd) ... ignoring things does not help. Ming had some good points in his 3-way street post that were not heeded.

EDIT: Fix links, typos.
 
Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
A comment about this Slowthinker, while I agree that posting cheats is fine, as does TF, but defying a forum moderator isn't, and you deserve to be banned for that.
See the edited post Post #42 here, I didn't defy but conversely tried to satisfy the ban.
Also, those forums are the wrong place to question rules
I repeat again I don't feel being treated unfairly , but I say that there are no clear rules here. (see posts #24, 29 here) People should know what is the ban, when and how it may happen etc.
 
I collected the suggestions for TF I posted to different places last day:

Place something like You needn't to be warned before the ban. to the general CFC rules page. People won't feel hurt when they will be banned suddenly.
But I suggest always to warn before the ban, especially when the culprit is not known as a recidivist.

Place something like Don't expect mods will always explain you why you are banned, please comprehend their time may be limited... to the general CFC rules page.
Anyway I suggest that mods try to explain. In my "case" starlifter asked his 12 questions, because after my ban there wasn't clear what is allowed and what isn't. Sun Tzu refused to reply, moreover Smash announced he agrees with posting ways of cheating...The situation was totally unclear.

What happens if forum mods have different opinion what to forbid and what to allow? {Or is Sun Tzu a leading mod in the PBEM forum?) I think that the mods should contact Thunderfall immediately whenever they don't have an equal opinion about the local posting rules.

I think that every forum that have special posting rules should have one "sticky" closed thread with a list of forbidden things (additional to the general CFC rules). Mods would add new restrictions when needed. A forum user would know that he should read both general CFC rules and these forum related rules.

Maybe the banned people should be allowed to post to the Site Feedback Forum and to explain or defend immediately.

Explain what is the ban, how it works. The man who was banned the first time should know what happened. Maybe an automated e-mail should be posted.
 
I see Thunderfall and AoA have posted during my last one, and I see there is another discussion gong on beyond what what actually posted in the thread, so I'll leave it at that. Except to say that from proofreading lots of Slow Thinker's stuff in Nethog's thread and from Slow Thinker's results and findings on Spies, & units in Civ 2 this month, I did not read what he wrote as a challenge. His normal style of writing and use of English pretty much follows that pattern... it's fairly fluent English, but not native and sometimes you can probably take it the wrong way.

For instance, here is some of his work and wording in Nethog's thread.

So his wording pattern (maybe I was used to it) was "normal" for him, and it did not cross my mind when reading the posts on page 3 that he was baiting the mod. It looked to me like he was actually ready to self-ban himself for 7 days, and was suprised he could still post.

Anyway, just going by the public posts in the thread, it was my personal opinion that he was not defying anyone. He was already banned according the the Mod's post, and Slow Thinker's use of wording constructs indicate it. The wording might can be taken a little agrumentatively, if it was from a Native Engilsh speaker.

"do you speak seriously? That would be amazing, I was never banned! What shall I do? "

That is typical non-native ways of writing thoughts, maybe even with a dictionary of translation program help. His home country is Cz, and he has made several warning to us in other forums when he makes a really long post of inputs and edits, like "Nethog, After first very quick view I post my suggestions (although the sentences are written in a dictating way ). Be aware of my weak english."

Like here

So my thought is for people that are not native English speakers, we should give them more benefit. All of Slow Thinker's posts are that way, and they're not meant to be insulting, so we should not read extra into them :). For a native speaker to say "do you speak seriously? That would be amazing, I was never banned! What shall I do? " might viewed as sort of mocking, since you expect the words arranged more like "are you serious? I'm surprised, because I've never been banned before! What do I need to do next?" So anyway, Slow Thinker was not being challenging to the mod, but actually helpful. That's my read on it, FWIW......

Anyway, thanks for answering the question about posting freely, Thunderfall. It pretty much takes care of all the questions in one fell swoop.
 
Originally posted by starlifter
since you expect the words arranged more like "are you serious? I'm surprised, because I've never been banned before! What do I need to do next?"
starlifter, I don't agree with you. :) I think amazing is closer than surprised. But you are right I was prepared to stop posting for a week if asked.
See the last paragraph in Post #83 of BLACKLIST of PBEM Dropouts.

I didn't know if Sun Tzu is serious, I smiled, and I wanted to express I was smiling a little bit ironicaly (but kindly) in the case he was serious. But I don't think that Sun should and did feel hurt from my smiles.

A similar thing is when Sun Tzu wrote
i don't feel like wasting my time, explaining why i ban someone, or atleast not to you peasants ;)
I enjoyed it (another thing is I awaited he will explain what is allowed and what is not).
Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
A police officer stops you, and says you can't wear a white shirt (which you have on), do you tell him to p1ss off?
He can and will arrest you, even though he's completely wrong.
:D I wouldn't tell him to p1ss off, but I would laugh. If he would arrest me then I would laugh again. (In the past one of my friends was arrested in Montana for couple hours. I envied to him! Policemen only searched my luggage, but they didn't arrest me :( I smiled when they did it, of course :lol: ) Then I would suggest to the Police Department that they should change some things.

Edited: the Montana story
 
I think amazing is closer than surprised.
LOL, I know what you are trying to say, Slow Thinker, because I spend a lot of time with people outside America who do not speak native English. But we don't quite use it that way in practice, which is my point.



Some people, like Lucky, are so fluent that you sometimes forget he's not a native speaker and can misinterpret something. Philippe is very obviously not native, but pretty good english. Yours is good enough that is sometimes sounds sarcastic, if an American was to speak it the way you do, which is where I now think some misunderstanding occurred. I doubt SunTzu knew who you were, and if I or a native English speaker wrote it the way you did, I can see how it could be interpreted the way Thunderfall and AoA are. SunTzu never mentioned that in his posts, only the ban for cheats so it never occurred to me when reading that someone might take that middle of the 3 posts after the ban was announced as mocking. I think that's what happened, if I read between the lines of what TF and AoA wrote.

I agree that even I as a native English speaker cannot tell if SunTzu is serious about some of his stuff, like the post in this thread. But I assume he is not because the alternative is so outrageous, and I can't imagine him really banning just because he is in a bad mood. But some of his comments, along with the thread, did not help to clear anything up very much.




I think that every forum that have special posting rules should have one "sticky" closed thread with a list of forbidden things (additional to the general CFC rules). Mods would add new restrictions when needed. A forum user would know that he should read both general CFC rules and these forum related rules.
I suggested this same thing a few weeks ago! It would be a great help, and would let the individual Forum mods post rules, even short term rules, for their forums. Posters would be responsible for reading it before posting. Some forums may not need one, but ones like PBEM, and OT do.



Explain what is the ban, how it works. The man who was banned the first time should know what happened. Maybe an automated e-mail should be posted.
That's a good question. If one has never been banned before, what to do what to do. Someone posted in the Blacklist thread that PMs still work in a ban. But I assumed that a person could not log in if banned, so I don't know what good a PM is.


:)
 
Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
A police officer stops you, and says you can't wear a white shirt (which you have on), do you tell him to p1ss off?
He can and will arrest you, even though he's completely wrong.
The same principal works here, if you see or feel your being treated unfairly, you don't defy the moderator (which you did by posting something when he said not to), you come here and make your case, or contact Thunderfall, who always listens to your concerns.

if the police do that, you'll have a rebellion on your hands :rolleyes:
thats what you call a dictatorship.

also, we CAN contact TF about it but if we are banned then we must e-mail him, and its often difficult to send messages to 2 people at once, especially when Mods dont let thier e-mail addresses be public.
 
Originally posted by Pellaken


if the police do that, you'll have a rebellion on your hands :rolleyes:
thats what you call a dictatorship.
No it would be abuse of power.
also, we CAN contact TF about it but if we are banned then we must e-mail him, and its often difficult to send messages to 2 people at once, especially when Mods dont let thier e-mail addresses be public.
Copy and paste...it would save you a lot of time typing.
 
"also, we CAN contact TF about it but if we are banned then we must e-mail him, and its often difficult to send messages to 2 people at once, especially when Mods dont let thier e-mail addresses be public."

When did TF become 2 people? thunderfall@civfanatics.com. One message. If there is a problem that the mod needs to know about he will tell them about it.
 
Starlifter, quit being so anal about everything, you never even come to the PBEM section until now to be the lawyer for the "persecuted" slowthinker.
TF your right on the events.
I think your warning would be me telling you don't post cheats.

And about me posting i ban cause i'm in a bad mood, that was a freakin joke! jesus, some times i wonder about some of you on this board.
 
Damn!
Ok i have come to a conclusion.
Starlifter and Slowthinker, you two have WAY too much time on your hands.
 
Starlifter and Slowthinker, you two have WAY too much time on your hands.
I was hit by a car and couldn't get around much for the last few weeks, but this week has suddenly become very busy in real life again.... so much for my free time ;)....

PS, I would like to PBEM, btw. I didn't eve know about it until looking for Slow Thinker last week, and finding his most recent posts in the PBEM section :).
 
I was hit by a car and couldn't get around much for the last few weeks....

Damn! You survived that! I was almost sure I killed you! ;)

Disclaimer: I didn't really try to kill starlifter, i was only trying to injure him ;)
 
Originally posted by Sun Tzu
Starlifter and Slowthinker, you two have WAY too much time on your hands.
:) from one side...
Sun, I am always prepared to help CivFanatics and to come with suggestions how to improve the forum system and policy, and I suppose starlifter too. And I welcome that you appreciate our work. Anyway we can't be compared with you: anybody sees that you sacrifice much more of time to Civfanatics by moderating. :goodjob:

:( from other side...
If you would keep clear rules in your forum, or at least make these rules clear after starlifter asked you, we would have even more time in our hands...:(

;) Moreover nobody would contact TF probably and you could stay content because the prohibition to post cheats would endure. :p
 
Whoa there:

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
Picture this:
A police officer stops you, and says you can't wear a white shirt (which you have on), do you tell him to p1ss off?
He can and will arrest you, even though he's completely wrong.

Okay. That's called wrongful arrest. White-Shirt wasn't breaking any laws - telling a cop to "p!ss-off" isn't against the law. If a police officer did this on a regular basis - and by "regular basis" I mean more than once and maybe even less than that - he's not going to be a cop for very much longer.

The same principal works here.

You gave a bad analogy. Nevertheless, the principle you're basically speaking of, "Don't sass the mods," is obviously in place, and should be. However, if a mod says "don't do X," which isn't in any way against the rules - he just said it because X happened to be rubbing his fragile soul the wrong way at that hour - I'll tell him where to take his proclamation. Also, my UNDERSTANDING (in that this is what all the mods claim) is that TF has to clear all the bans before they go into place anyway. I'd like to think he'd catch something stupid, like the above example, before things got out of hand - but then he didn't with your little episode the week before last, did he?
 
Originally posted by SunTzu
And about me posting i ban cause i'm in a bad mood, that was a freakin joke! jesus, some times i wonder about some of you on this board.

Shut up. It's one thing when you're joking about something like that with a peer, but as a mod you aren't our peer anymore. If my boss, who's already in a bad mood, starts talking about firing me or decreasing my pay, I take it quite seriously. Sure, this forum isn't as serious a place, but nonetheless you are in a position of power and should act accordingly. All you're doing is proving yourself incapable.

Also technically it isn't a joke because there isn't a ounce of humor in it.
 
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