[MONARCH] Failing Sucks Revenge A'la Ragnar!!

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Oh, I thought that farm and mine were equal.. Seems like it didn't work that way...

It's complicated - 2 + 1 vs 3 usually end up being very close when people try to put numbers on tile yields. You need to start looking at secondary concerns - ie "it depends." If you are going to do a lot of growing (because you've got good tiles to grow into, or because you are going to do a lot of whipping) then farms are strong; if you already have plenty of food, mines are strong.

During the opening, farms in the capital are usually wrong - the boost that you get in your starting location usually means plenty of food, the happy cap is low so you aren't going to be growing very much for a while.

In this specific case, if you had planned ahead enough to know that you were going to train a settler at size three, then you could also know that three hammers from the mine are going to be stronger than the two food and one commerce from the farm.

There's also the meta hint: Johnny Appleseed starts usually have hidden resources in the bald spots. So it was a pretty good bet that something was going to be on that open tile. The resources that might appear on the hills are guaranteed to be something that gets connected with a mine. The resources that might appear in the grassland are guaranteed NOT to be something that gets connected with a farm.

 

[Robert FIN]

Why on the hill and not one N of it as Ghpstage suggested? Wasting a hill means your city would have no hills and so no real production other than whip. 1N would be a plain tile and so rather weak which makes it better to settle on.
Right. I can see the mistake now. I'll do that.
Anyway I have another suggestion: what about settling on the sugar 3E1S of Nidaros? That would give the city instant 3F city tile much like settling on PH gives a city 2H tile instead of a 1H tile. That city would be instantly connected since the river is inside your cultural borders (tested in worldbuilder), so it could instantly contribute to your axe rush. The wheat city can't do that. Long-term that city has nothing but riverside tiles so it could be cottage heaven and later bureau cap (if the game takes long enough). Or if you intend to cottage your current capital, it could grow 5 riverside cottages for the cap.
Its otherwise a good option but I prefer settling the north. I don't wanna see that Ape-Asoka jumping on my face !
How are you planning to use your worker? Obviously mine the copper but then? If you intend to axe rush, I think your worker should be chopping down those forests for faster unit production.
Yeah, Chopchop is their main job.
I don't think it's a great idea to go worker first in your 2nd city. It's different for the first city but now you already have a city which is capable of doing the worker faster, maybe you should whip it. Agreed!

That's it.

 

[Robert FIN]

It's complicated - 2 + 1 vs 3 usually end up being very close when people try to put numbers on tile yields. You need to start looking at secondary concerns - ie "it depends." If you are going to do a lot of growing (because you've got good tiles to grow into, or because you are going to do a lot of whipping) then farms are strong; if you already have plenty of food, mines are strong.

During the opening, farms in the capital are usually wrong - the boost that you get in your starting location usually means plenty of food, the happy cap is low so you aren't going to be growing very much for a while.

In this specific case, if you had planned ahead enough to know that you were going to train a settler at size three, then you could also know that three hammers from the mine are going to be stronger than the two food and one commerce from the farm.

There's also the meta hint: Johnny Appleseed starts usually have hidden resources in the bald spots. So it was a pretty good bet that something was going to be on that open tile. The resources that might appear on the hills are guaranteed to be something that gets connected with a mine. The resources that might appear in the grassland are guaranteed NOT to be something that gets connected with a farm.

Thanks for that, it really covers the problem, VoU !

 

[Robert FIN]

2720BC-2000BC

The Cold War

Spoiler :

I commad my miners to burn the farm n' build a mine instead.

TW is now under research of Viking scientists.

After mine was construcked, the workers started to chopchop surrounding woods. Ragnar smiles in his palace when he thinks about the number of unchopped forest.

Setler's ready, Worker the 2nd is getting trained in Nidaros now.

Reseached TW, Pottery next.

Worker finished, now its time to spam up some Axes.

Uppsala was built:


Uppsala will spam soldier on its time too, that's why it needs barracks.

Capital finishes Axeman, it'll need barracks too. Whipped for barracks there and continued with Axeman.

More forests grow in capital area so workers are busy there.

Asoka behaves aggressively:


Nidaros kept on pumping out Axes.

Pottery finished in 2000BC.

Save:

 

[enKage]

Upssala stil not connectedd to trade route, so how to spam axes there? 1 worker should take care of psala as soon as it is founded, irrigate wheat too. If you do not work on your new city immediately, settling it makes no sense. Chops + double whiped axes in Nidaros is enough to produce effectively 2 axes per 3 turns

 

[Gumbolt]

Medic axe??? Why oh why!!!

Barracks before axe. Or whip barracks to complete axe.

 

[Robert FIN]

Upssala stil not connectedd to trade route, so how to spam axes there? 1 worker should take care of psala as soon as it is founded, irrigate wheat too. If you do not work on your new city immediately, settling it makes no sense. Chops + double whiped axes in Nidaros is enough to produce effectively 2 axes per 3 turns

What the... but... but... both cities are next to the same darn river!! My game must be broken!!

Medic axe??? Why oh why!!! 

Barracks before axe. Or whip barracks to complete axe.



Umm...Why not? Medic Axeman is cool !! What's wrong with Olof?

 

[Seraiel]

Normally it's good to found cities directly besides the food but your 2nd city could have shared the Copper and instantly have had a good tile, it would have gotten a cultural-river-traderoute via a 3rd city, would only have missed a few bad tiles in the est and it would have gotten the Marble like that.

 

[vranasm]

hey robert,
I played your save and as I said initially with this crappy land you really don't need that city 2

providing save at 1320 and 300 BC

first is India dead, 2nd is pacal on the brink, economy basically recovered even if needs a bit work

didn't MM much

 

[enKage]

What the... but... but... both cities are next to the same darn river!! My game must be broken!!

No, your understanding of game concepts is broken.
Cities have to be on the same river AND all the river between these 2 cities has to be within your cultural borders. That's also why I suggested 2nd city directly on sugar- immediate trade .

After sailing the 2nd condition is no longer needed.

Anyway, you can use your misunderstanding in a good way, producing militia and fogbusting warriors there (before barracks)

 

[Htadus]

2720BC-2000BC

The Cold War

Spoiler :

Uppsala was built:

Save:

You settled Uppsala on the wrong plains tile to properly block off an AI. I know the mantra about settling next to food if not playing a creative civ but some times it is actually better to have the food on the outer ring. 1NW of Uppsala would have been better and on BTS the AI would not expand in your direction.

Also you could have a city 2S1E of Upps to claim the ivory and share wheat with both cities.

 

[sinimusta]

I don't think there is real need to block Asoka if the plan is to axe rush him anyway. Blocking would be a good idea if the plan is to peacefully coexist for relatively long time. In fact Asoka settling Bombay can be a good thing if one wants to save a settler. Just go with a stack of axes first towards Delhi and wait for Bombay to grow before taking it in order to avoid autorazing.

 

[Gumbolt]



Umm...Why not? Medic Axeman is cool !! What's wrong with Olof?

Your planning a axe rush and the first axe you have produced you have crippled with a medic promo. it will have 20-25% less attack strength in it's first combat. I normally delay selecting promotions till I need to use them.

For me I would rather have city raider axes or 25% vs archers. A medic unit when you only have 1-2 offensive units is a bit weak for me.

 

[Robert FIN]

@Seraiel, enKage, Htadus: Yeah. City settlement went badly. I can see the mistake now. Won't happen again ! I just cannot change that anymore. I thought that somebody adviced me to settle in the tile in this thread. And ofc, I might have misunderstood the tile what (s)he meant. Let's focus to the war now ! @Vranasm: Thanks for shadow gaming. I haven't checked the file yet, since I don't want to spoil the game. However, the upper save shouldn't be too dangerous so I check it before next round. @Sinimusta: Good plan! Conquer order: Delhi -> Bombay -> Possible new cities. @Gumbolt: Well, Olof could've been provided with better promo but why its so bad? He'll be useful later. @Everybody: Soo.. What should I do now? How many axeman is enough to beat Asoka's armies? And what to tech? I'm getting confused, help!

 

[enKage]

You should count 2 archers - 3 axes on grass/plain, 1 archers=2 axes on hills, for these two cities 7 is a minimum , as you will encounter at least 3 archers on hill in capital. If Asoka has copper = +2 axes per indian axe

 

[sinimusta]

I'd tech writing next as I don't see real need for other worker teches right now. That opens up other good teches, math-currency route or alpha. On monarch I'm don't think beelining alpha would be that useful, you might be able to backfill some worker teches but as a human player and with advice you should be able to tech a lot faster than ais even if you temporarily break your economy with a rush. But with alpha+currency you could get good gold for your old teches.

Micro-tip for whipping: axeman costs 35h, one pop is 30h. Try to start an axe with less than 5h and then you can 2-pop whip your axeman, and the overflow will almost finish the next one. Or start building a worker at size 4, build it until you have almost 30h produced and 2-pop-whip. The overflow will almost produce an axe and you have a worker which can chop even more forests to get axes.

 

[Robert FIN]

@Vranasm: Oh dear! I checked your upper save and I saw that you went into the war with 1 city !!

2000BC-1560BC

Invaders

Spoiler :

Continued the game:

I start to tech masonry because I see marble in next to Bomabay. I may be able to get Oracle or some other fun soon!

Whip and chop like crazy now. At the same time I tried to make huge Appian Way project to the city of Uppsala.

In few turns I noticed that we should change our attacking plan. Look:


Its going to be easy. I attack now, take Asoka's Bombay to us and then invade the capital.

So, I don't wait. The norsemen are here to take the land what belongs to them. Die Asoka!! DIE !!





Bombay taken with 1 loss. An axeman died when attacking the city w/ 68% odds..



Finished Masonry, next Writing.

Delhi:


Map:

 

[auagxa]

With regards to oracle, I don't think you can make it considering the date. Oracles in prince usually hit at 1000 BC (Dunno about monarch but it's probably much earlier). You don't even have mysticism yet. So if you plan to oracle, pre-chop your forests to make sure you get it.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Ouch - I think you're going to need some more FBI guys.

I suspect you are going to discover that keeping Bombay is a mistake. No first ring food; wrestling the sheep from Delhi is going to be too expensive. It does give you the marble - but the marble doesn't do you any good while you are producing troops.

Of course, you could just throw a blanket over Delhi, and bring units to finish the job later. It's not going anywhere.

 

[Seraiel]

You've built 1 road too much.
You have 1 Worker for 3 cities.
The city building a 2nd Worker got a Barracks first, has no improved Food and has a warrior.
In contrast to that, your capital is unhappy because it lacks the city-garrison that the other city has, you whipped it wrong and / or too often, you're not working the copper .
Your third city should work the plains mine that should actually not be there because your capital should have a riverside grassland mine instead, be size 4-5 and work awesome tiles, but now that you built a plains-mine (something you should normally never do) you're not even taking advantage of it.
You're running 80% research and lose at least 1 Beaker / turn.
You have not a single Cottage though you got awesome rivers and are financial.
You plan to settle a 3rd city in the jungle, question is when you plan that because in that tempo Ironworks is like a millenium away.

Sry for the unfriendly tone, but those are such hardcore errors that I had to react. I'm not sure what's normal for Monarch players and why the others don't write something like I did here, what stands above is ment to help, I'd suggest you start completely new. I'm willing to help if I notice that you're trying, what I saw was / is horrible.