Monarch game. Help me to win one

Lao Tzu · Mar 13, 2007

[FONT=&quot]I've recently moved from prince to monarch and managed to win 2 games on that new level, but still have no clear strategy. Articles in War Academy and threads by Sisiutil and aelf helped me alot, but i still have many questions. Your advices and commentaries on this game will probably help me to master :king:

[/FONT] I'm playing as Huayna Capac ruler of mighty Incan empire. Financial & Industrious are very strong traits; his UU & UB are also great for an early game. Starting techs are mysticism and agriculture.

Settling in place looks like a solid decision but Ill probably have to move palace to a better spot later. This city should build GT and maybe NE (if I manage to build GL there). The real question is tech order. Should we pursue an early religion (btw, there are no happiness resources nearby) or start working 2 fish tiles ASAP and REX with their help. Another variant is mining->BW with chopping 1-st settler. And build order? warrior-worker or warrior-warrior-work boat?
What early wonders I should try to get?
And should I use incan UU for an early rush?

I know, too many questions for an experienced prince player, but I really want to make mechanics of monarch game perfectly clear for me and other people, who are interested.

save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/103818/Anniba_Monarch_BC-4000.CivWarlordsSave

jeremiahrounds · Mar 13, 2007

Thats a chopping chain reaction waiting to happen!

Killroyan · Mar 13, 2007

I would go with fishing first. 4 sea resources is just grand. After 1 or 2 workboats get worker out and work the cows and then just rex a little. But it also depends a lot on your neighbours. If they are close then you can do a quesha rush. Mysticism is already available so getting a quick religion with working a sea tile is doable. Then go fishing -> animal husbandry and work boat (or 2) and worker. First builds would be 2 quesha's. Damn good starting site.

CivSetä · Mar 13, 2007

I don't suggest religion gamble, you don't have any extra trade, so you can actually lose that race. Build another quechua instead, and then workboats. Research fishing first, then mining-BW, and use that huge amount of excess food to whip settler. That city is great for early GP farm, so build library soon!

As you have lots of forests, consider some early wonder chopping, you have enough wood for even pyramids.

And don't forget possible rush, it all depend what you find nearby.

Ecofarm · Mar 13, 2007

If you find a civ that is not protective, than a good old Q-rush is in order (get 3-5 and go for it).

However, if the nearest civ is protective, I think it is best to allow it time to found a second city, and take that with the initial Q-rush. The new city will be without the 20% culture bonus, and the archers will be unfortified (if it's on a hill, then you need to consider if the losses will be worth it. Don't forget to let it grow to a 2 population, so you can keep the city and make up for your sacrifice of expansion for army. Even without culture, it will probably require a 2:1 ratio (Q:archer). By the time you locate the capital and second city, and take the second city, you can have amassed a good sized Q army (especially since you have a whip-friendy start). Then it's off to the capital - If the cap has 40% culture after all this time, I think the rush is over and you are stuck with a large, but ineffective army. Maybe you could look for a new victim. If the cap is still at 20%, 3:1 (Q:archer) should be sufficient to take down the cap.

I would suggest tech: fishing (that seafood buffet is too good to let rot), then mining and bronze to utilize the whip under such a food-rich environment.

Build order: Q, fishing boat, Q..... (this is assuming that you are going for a rush).

Use the 2 Qs (you start with one) to explore/hut pop and the fishing boat for fast research and whipping the main army after the strategic/tactical situation is known.

After the fishing boat, I would build 2-3 (4?) Qs at 2.5 turns each (working a crab net and the forrested plain-hill, then whip down to 1 pop, netting (pun intended) a total of about 6 Qs in ur city, + your initial 2 that are exploring (8-10 total).

-- then launch headlong into a possibly disasterous campaign.

1. build Q to explore.
2. Get a fishing boat up / assess the situation / choose to rush!
3. More Qs (and whip).
4. ?
5. profit

This might be a flawed strategy, but you really need to know what you are going to do with the Qs before many are built, that's why I recommend building 1 first and then a boat so there is time to call off the rush if you dont like what you see.

Also, you might be better off just straight building Qs instead of going for the boat and a whip. Note, however, that the net allows for BW to be researched in a timely manner, and for the 3hammer hill to be worked. Number crunching would tell you which way produces more Qs quickly, but what about getting bronze in time to whip (and having a population to do so)?

Lastly, settling on the plains-hill might produce Qs faster (but how could you give up that seafood and a 3h tile!?).

Give it a whirl, and let me know how it goes.

Then again, it's possible to play Inca and not rush Qs (or so I hear)

Well, I tried, but I'm not sure it's worth 2cents.

JimT · Mar 13, 2007

In the same position as you but still going to add my two cents.

I would build Quechuas until I had fishing (1st tech)
I think I would build two fishing boats while researching bronzeworking. After that I would be aiming for iron working, pottery (terraces and cottages in seccond city) or animal husbandry (helps 1st city and horse will help the war effort if there isn't metal).
Get an army together and use two pop working fishing boats to get a settler (grab a strategic resource) and worker together. Once I disposed of my first neighbour I would want a better unit available to whip and use the overflow for the quechua, more effective than the straight whip.

I wouldn't bother with wonders unless I had to abort my first rush. The exception is colossus which could provide significant help once you have disposed of your nearest and dearest, but only if there are other decent coastal sites.

Last time I had Incas I only found my neighbour was protective, sitting on a hill with four archers in her capital. Had to wait until I could move up a couple of axemen to help. So the effectiveness of the Quechua can be easily stunted. The Terrace and Financial will always be a godsend though

fro · Mar 13, 2007

With your four seafood resources you should be churning out the great people later on. The combination of lots of food and lots of forest means BW is superb for a whippy/choppy combo, hopefully going some way to make up for the slight lack of production.

cabert · Mar 13, 2007

since HC
- doesn't start with fishing
- has a deadly early UU
I suggest moving inland towards a strong production center near an enemy, build quechuas, take enemy workers, build more quechuas, take enemy cities, then settler if you need more cities and cottage spam. This initial spot is great for you GP farm. Don't forget to send a settler there as soon as you know fishing.

Ecofarm · Mar 13, 2007

I agree, cabert. I have read alot about moving starting settler lately, and will give it a try soon. No bad results from settler popping goodie huts?

Don't read the spoiler if you haven't played yet! (Original Poster)

Spoiler :

Lao Tzu · Mar 13, 2007

Played the first round which brought some interesting news and decisions. Will post the update soon.

Lao Tzu · Mar 13, 2007

I'd like to divide my report into 2 parts. The first one is about game and the second about MM.
Part I:
Set research to fishing->mining->BW
On the turn 6 met another civilization -> China
Popped hut for some gold
Found China capital
Met Mansa and have opportunity to stole worker from Quin

Part II:
I've settled in place and started working grassland forest (2F1P) and building quechua. When fishing came in, I let my city to reach 2pop and started working forested hill (0F3P).

But what, if not?

case 1:With 1pop -> 8 turns and 1pop
case 2:With 1pop + 1pop-> 3 turns + 5 turns + 1pop = 8 turns and 2pops
Case 2 is a no brainer, huh? After building wb i worked crabs(1F less then fish, but 2C higher) and hill, while building another wb

And after that i proceed with working clams & fish while growing to size 3. After that i'll build worker and whip it for 1pop. I want to have 2pops remaining ->faster regrowth

Analysis of this round and map will be in the next post

Lao Tzu · Mar 13, 2007

This round brought mix of good and bad news. We're not alone, but our closest neigbhour is protective & industrious with marble near capital and another - science-crazy guy which is quite far away. Decision not to pursue religions for happiness turned up to be right. We have gold & silver(and cheap forges), wine and furs. I didn't follow cabert advice to move inland, because it's normal speed and I don't want to lose time.

So, this round brought new questions:
Is it safe to stole worker from Quin? He has 2 archers sitting in his capital
Where to settle my cities?
How soon should i start amassing quechuas?
Should i go for an oracle or stonehendge?

Screenshots of what quality and size should i post(1024x768 or less, >100kb or less).

Spoiler :

pigswill · Mar 13, 2007

If you're comfortable at prince I'm not sure there's much mileage in going through the basic stuff. More to the point would be what's your strategy for early development? Monarch AI will tech and expand a bit faster than on prince.

You don't have any civs that are really close so you could pinch a worker but its not ideally set up for quecha rush. On the other hand four seafood resources gives you decent research potential and the ability to build settlers and workers with minimal chopping. Worth considering whipping workboats and putting one turn overflow into settler. Overall the map seems more suited to initial rex than initial rush.

You can also assume that MM and Qin to a lesser extent will tech quickly. To benefit from this you need tradable techs and decent relations. Its worth considering going for MC at some point both for Colossus and exchange value.

I have to admit that given the start I would have gone for early religion working unimproved seafood tiles initially then headed towards Oracle (lots of forest to chop) but its a bit late for that now.

carl corey · Mar 13, 2007

pigswill, he didn't start with fishing and needed that to work the water tiles. I'm not sure he would have got the religion after that.

jeremiahrounds · Mar 13, 2007

i played your posted game. I got out to a great start, but its sort of a tough spot to play the post 100ad turns.

Spoiler :

First the area is interesting cause you have alot of resource possibilities but you are sorrounded by a thick swath of hills to the west with no great city squares. However to your south is some ~Great~ land.

The odd thing is while the chinese are atleast 15 squares away you are both forced into the same land by mansa. So to far to easily kill. To close to ignore.

You cant safely depend on taking the chinese out. I reloaded a few times against my instincts and its just to chancey even rushing the heck out of your units. They are a good 15 squares away and have a capital on a hill in addition to having as many water tiles as you but already worked (cant pillage) I did do several reloads here but more to see different paths not to cook the odds. I got one scenario where i prolly could have took the chinese out but i wouldnt depend on it. And I think youll end up so far behind the other two AIs which arnt that far away that youll be a sad panda.

You can safely take one of their workers using the AI implosion trick. Here you arnt playing the odds. You war dec the chinese and take a worker. Guide it back to your lands then head back and camp your unit on a forested hill inside his border. This will freeze him.

Chopping tiles within your borders is totally worth focusing on. I actually did two workers in a row and then a warrior and then a settler. I ended up using the remaining to chop stonehenge which is very valuable in this land grab imo. Pyramids was up for a very long time but i always had that thought of its to late i cant get it.

When mansa made contact i adopted his religion and spread it. Me and mansa are friendly tech partners at 1000ad and that is the only reason i am still in this game.

The chinese great real aggressive when they get their nasty crossbows. They war deced me at that point after they loaded up with longbows in their cities. I havent really lost but ive noticed my gold production is one of the worst in the world at 1000ad. The reason is even though im a cottage spammer i only got 5 cities up and i only had room for 6 big ones. And one of them is challenged.

And oh yeah its still just us 4 on that continent. the rest of the world hadnt made contact yet.

I dunno if this is going to work out for me, but i am neck and neck for techs simply cause i am keeping up with mansa and we are trading. As long as thats true i should have a shot though i think the long term problems with coin generation are going to do me in.

I am pondering if not antagonizing the chinese and just working on my economy is best.

pigswill · Mar 14, 2007

Fair point re fishing. Ran the start couple of times. Five turns to get fishing, working forest. Once fishing was in swopped to seafood tile and got hinduism by 3360bc (both times), buddhism hadn't been founded so could have got that a couple of turns earlier.

jeremiahrounds · Mar 14, 2007

ive won on monarch btw and while the start is golden your neighbors have golden starting squares too and you end up cramped. Kind of the story of this map is great start position sucky medieval position. I mean to exasperate the situation you have 0 chance at marble or stone unless you take out the chinese capital like 16 squares away. (the chinese are literally next to the marble) You also have no particular chance to monopolizing the iron.

The south of you is beautiful city squares and resources but ehh only goes so far.

Anyway my point is this: While the map is winnable dont let the capital city squares fool you. This map is by no means the easiest monarch map to win.

Lao Tzu · Mar 14, 2007

That is very short round. I finished researching BW (no copper nearby), AH(2 horses revealed). Worker built, Settler started. Now I need avice on settling my 2-nd city.

And I still have no clear plan for that game. Variants:
1) Settle red spot, kill Quin with warriors(i can build/chop 5 in 7 turns) and chariots?
2) Chop barraks and start amassing warriors immidiately
3) Settle red & green spot(high commerce). Then settle white & purple, develop peacefully, kill China with cats & jumbos

And what should I research after wheel? Probably pottery, but what next?

pigswill · Mar 14, 2007

There's a fair chunk of unclaimed territory and a chunk of tundra that no-one's going to rush to settle so you can anticipate some barb activity. Quechas should be able to handle this until barb axes start appearing but you've got some time before those turn up.
Qin and Mansa are likely to start settling cities themselves. Qin is likely to pinch the blue spots unless you get there straight away. But you don't need to do that. Let Qin and Mansa do the work and pinch their cities later.
It might be worth looking to establish a city in the middle of the continent pretty much due east of your capital to work the cows and the gold. Its always nice to have some luxuries and gold boosts commerce as well.
A fairly standard plan is to settle nearby, get to construction, build axes (or swords) and cats and then pinch the neighbours' cities.
Techwise pottery for granaries then probably IW unless you intend to go for Oracle in which case its best to work towards it as soon as you've got your second city.

OTAKUjbski · Mar 14, 2007

Qin's too far away for a Quechua rush, and MM's Skirmisher makes early conquest nearly impossible.

Since neither MM nor Qin start with Mysticism, play the religion game, imho. Spread one religion to your early ally and another religion to your early foe.

I'd probably play MM against Qin.

Qin will most likely be relying on his Cho-Ko-Nu and mounties (from horses to north), so your Cats and Jumbos should be able to walk all over him pretty easy.

You'll also be able to resettle those blue & teal spots you had your eye on in the beginning, since CoL will be right around the corner with its lovely Courthouse (if not discovered during your campaign).

If you're really lucky, Qin will have beelined to Machinery for his UU. If this is the case, you might be able to extract some of those early techs you missed along the way to Construction before finishing off Beijing 10 turns later.

Plus, since MM's Religious, you can bank on him boosting your coffers with his religion spread once you get your Shrine up in Cuzco.

:dunno:

Of course, this is all just TheoryCraft for now ... I'll have to download your game sometime this week when I'm not working and see what happens.

Monarch game. Help me to win one

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