Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
I knew my latin is kind of broken. I figured it'd be something like that, but novus was the only form of the word I knew, so I decided to try and play it safe 
Monarchists' Cookbook I
- Thread starter Diamondeye
- Start date
OTAKUjbski
TK421
Round 4: 700 AD - 1200 AD
I'm finally back and played the round -- though I was kind of out of it, so I don't think I did too well.
I'm finally back and played the round -- though I was kind of out of it, so I don't think I did too well.
Spoiler :
Spoiler Pros, Cons and future prospects :
OTAKUjbski
TK421
Round 4: 700 AD - 1200 AD (cont.)
Spoiler State of the World screenshots :
Spoiler AutoLog :
OTAKUjbski
TK421
Hopefully, I've gotten all the data correct this time around ...
Spoiler :
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
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- Messages
- 5,724
Can barbs pose a threat ca. 1200AD? Apparently, the answer is yes, if you overextend yourself thinking you are ok Now the question is can my archer make it to, and defend, another undefended city or will I lose it too?
Now the question is can my archer make it to, and defend, another undefended city or will I lose it too? Spoiler :
OTAKUjbski
TK421
@ futurehermit:
Where be thine save?
Where be thine save?
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
sorry, i will add it
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
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btw nice round otaku 
liked your submission best out of the other ones i looked at
liked your submission best out of the other ones i looked at
Oops, forgot my save.
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
Futurehermit your save is crazy! 14 cities and 9 courthouses up 
... I have to take a closer look laters...
... I have to take a closer look laters...futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
Futurehermit your save is crazy! 14 cities and 9 courthouses up
And the forbidden palace
Yep, I was on a mission. You see, there's this guy on the forums who has this inspiring signature...
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
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- Messages
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3 Pros:
-# of cities
-Forbidden Palace built
-Diplomatic situation (diplo victory is open imo)
3 Cons:
-Barb blunder
-Need more workers/improvements
-Barb blunder
-# of cities
-Forbidden Palace built
-Diplomatic situation (diplo victory is open imo)
3 Cons:
-Barb blunder
-Need more workers/improvements
-Barb blunder
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
Third CON for FutureHermits save would, imo, be that he feeded techs to the AI?
OTAKUjbski
TK421
I really like futurehermit's save, but I don't think we can defend against those Barbarians in time ... they might even threaten a 3rd city soon!
Still perplexing is how Bleys manages to get so many techs without tech trading and with a comparatively lower BPT.
And though I like MoM, I don't like polluting my GP pool, so I actually count all saves with MoM in Berlin as a CON!
I'm not sure why r_rolo1 chose to obsolete the Colossus just yet (Observatories, maybe?), but I think it's well worth noting he has the 2nd strongest economy even without it! I count Astronomy as a CON but his strong economy despite it a very strong PRO.
Solon70 has a particularly weak GP Farm, but that's nothing time and a National Epic can't resolve. The fact he has Versailles started is a huge PRO, because the AI tends to gobble that thing up quick in my games.
Similarly, I dig the Hagia Sophia (great gpp), so Solon70 gets kudos for that as well.
I think I have the same CON against Bleys, futurehermit and Solon70 (though I'm not sure if it's their fault or just the way it went): The AI (particularly Saladin) trails a lot closer in known techs by comparison to some of the other saves.
It appears we all more-or-less neglected spreading Hinduism, but Winston Hughes picked up at the end and has 2 Hindu Missionaries just a couple turns from spreading Hinduism to Marble Island, which is definitely a PRO.
The only problem with the above statement is that Winston Hughes is running Pacifism, so the state religion doesn't mean near as much anymore by comparison to OR. It's also worth noting as we expand our cities and military, Pacifism is likely to get expensive. I don't think extra GP are worth it quite so much, so I think I count Pacifism as a CON for now.
That being said, Winston Hughes having a sleeping GE is a HUGE PRO to me. I frequently use a GE to rush Ironworks or West Point in low production games like this. Again ... HUGE PRO having that in the bag.
In Diamondeye's and Winston Hughes' games, the AP resides in Medina, so we know the AP is Hindu (benefiting us) and at least moderately accessible should we want it later. This is a definite PRO. (In futurehermit's game, the AP is being built in Berlin, so I guess it fits in this category as well.)
Winston Hughes and r_rolo1 both get PROps for having great AI relations.
OTAKUjbski is trailing by comparison in tech but has the strongest economy despite being spread far and wide. (PRO) Conversely, there are a lot of "backfill holes" which the AI could sneak into and settle if we're not mindful in the next round. (CON)
Everybody had solid expansion this round; the highlights (to me) are OTAKUjbski for capturing (and resettling) Angle and pressing so far into the mainland, futurehermit for spamming the most cities (and courthouses!) and Winston Hughes for settling the Plains Hill Fish/Clam island.
Speaking of expansion, a CON of Solon70's save is that Saladin has a city on the mainland east of Cologne (NW of Bactrian). Similarly, Bleys' save has an Arabian city north of Cologne just south of Hsung-Nu.
It appears Bleys and OTAKUjbski are the only saves with a lvl4 unit. (PRO) It's also worth mentioning OTAKUjbski has already built the HE and is set up to continuously pump Settlers and military units in Cologne. (PRO)
----
That's all the observations I have for now.
I'm not voting yet, because I'd like to hear others' opinions as well in case I've misinterpreted or missed something.
Still perplexing is how Bleys manages to get so many techs without tech trading and with a comparatively lower BPT.
And though I like MoM, I don't like polluting my GP pool, so I actually count all saves with MoM in Berlin as a CON!
I'm not sure why r_rolo1 chose to obsolete the Colossus just yet (Observatories, maybe?), but I think it's well worth noting he has the 2nd strongest economy even without it! I count Astronomy as a CON but his strong economy despite it a very strong PRO.
Solon70 has a particularly weak GP Farm, but that's nothing time and a National Epic can't resolve. The fact he has Versailles started is a huge PRO, because the AI tends to gobble that thing up quick in my games.
Similarly, I dig the Hagia Sophia (great gpp), so Solon70 gets kudos for that as well.
I think I have the same CON against Bleys, futurehermit and Solon70 (though I'm not sure if it's their fault or just the way it went): The AI (particularly Saladin) trails a lot closer in known techs by comparison to some of the other saves.
It appears we all more-or-less neglected spreading Hinduism, but Winston Hughes picked up at the end and has 2 Hindu Missionaries just a couple turns from spreading Hinduism to Marble Island, which is definitely a PRO.
The only problem with the above statement is that Winston Hughes is running Pacifism, so the state religion doesn't mean near as much anymore by comparison to OR. It's also worth noting as we expand our cities and military, Pacifism is likely to get expensive. I don't think extra GP are worth it quite so much, so I think I count Pacifism as a CON for now.
That being said, Winston Hughes having a sleeping GE is a HUGE PRO to me. I frequently use a GE to rush Ironworks or West Point in low production games like this. Again ... HUGE PRO having that in the bag.
In Diamondeye's and Winston Hughes' games, the AP resides in Medina, so we know the AP is Hindu (benefiting us) and at least moderately accessible should we want it later. This is a definite PRO. (In futurehermit's game, the AP is being built in Berlin, so I guess it fits in this category as well.)
Winston Hughes and r_rolo1 both get PROps for having great AI relations.
OTAKUjbski is trailing by comparison in tech but has the strongest economy despite being spread far and wide. (PRO) Conversely, there are a lot of "backfill holes" which the AI could sneak into and settle if we're not mindful in the next round. (CON)
Everybody had solid expansion this round; the highlights (to me) are OTAKUjbski for capturing (and resettling) Angle and pressing so far into the mainland, futurehermit for spamming the most cities (and courthouses!) and Winston Hughes for settling the Plains Hill Fish/Clam island.
Speaking of expansion, a CON of Solon70's save is that Saladin has a city on the mainland east of Cologne (NW of Bactrian). Similarly, Bleys' save has an Arabian city north of Cologne just south of Hsung-Nu.
It appears Bleys and OTAKUjbski are the only saves with a lvl4 unit. (PRO) It's also worth mentioning OTAKUjbski has already built the HE and is set up to continuously pump Settlers and military units in Cologne. (PRO)
----
That's all the observations I have for now.
I'm not voting yet, because I'd like to hear others' opinions as well in case I've misinterpreted or missed something.
Bleys
Deity
Great points. In defense of my save, I do have 2 missionaries on a boat headed for the Cologne island, and I have spread Hindu to both Marble island cities.
I can explain my tech lead fairly easily as well. Look at my relations (not horrible, but not really great). I did not gift a single tech, I do not give in to threats or requests for help. At this level, I just dont think its worth it, since I will have a pretty large military advantage soon enough. At Emperor and above, I think that kind of attitude will hurt my play significantly, but for Monarch, I am a very stingy player. I also tend to bulb more and settle less, and when I do trade, I often go with offering a single tech that has a higher cost than the one I am after, so I end up getting the tech I want, + all their gold, + their map in return. I have not given a single AI my map this game, and 2 trades got me the circumvent bonus, plus a tech I lacked, plus gold. I also ALWAYS do the "trade to one, trade to all his buddies too" philosophy when trading techs, even if I get hosed on the 2nd or 3rd trade. Its better to get 50 gold and a map for CoL from an AI if I just made a decent trade to his best friend, because odds are I wont get anything from him. I think this also helps keep the AIs from cashing in on my tech trades.
Here is an example (purely hypothetical, but feasible):
I trade CoL to KK for Monotheism and Drama. KK takes CoL, puts Drama with it, and trades it to Jaoa for Currency. However, if I have already traded CoL to Jaoa for 50 gold and a map, KK doesnt have enough to offer, so he doesnt get Currency at all.
I can explain my tech lead fairly easily as well. Look at my relations (not horrible, but not really great). I did not gift a single tech, I do not give in to threats or requests for help. At this level, I just dont think its worth it, since I will have a pretty large military advantage soon enough. At Emperor and above, I think that kind of attitude will hurt my play significantly, but for Monarch, I am a very stingy player. I also tend to bulb more and settle less, and when I do trade, I often go with offering a single tech that has a higher cost than the one I am after, so I end up getting the tech I want, + all their gold, + their map in return. I have not given a single AI my map this game, and 2 trades got me the circumvent bonus, plus a tech I lacked, plus gold. I also ALWAYS do the "trade to one, trade to all his buddies too" philosophy when trading techs, even if I get hosed on the 2nd or 3rd trade. Its better to get 50 gold and a map for CoL from an AI if I just made a decent trade to his best friend, because odds are I wont get anything from him. I think this also helps keep the AIs from cashing in on my tech trades.
Here is an example (purely hypothetical, but feasible):
I trade CoL to KK for Monotheism and Drama. KK takes CoL, puts Drama with it, and trades it to Jaoa for Currency. However, if I have already traded CoL to Jaoa for 50 gold and a map, KK doesnt have enough to offer, so he doesnt get Currency at all.
r_rolo1
King of myself
@OTAKU
Astro makes me Saladin free in terms of GLH and that alone worths losing the collosus.... Besides that Observatories and ( especially ) Galleons are pretty useful. To add if you get hut lucky ( like I did ) you can think on something higher for Lib, like steel ( Cannons + ( Frigates + privateers on the way ) + drydocks )....
And my economy is better than most saves, because of losing Colossus: my cities are finally working cottages Seriously, my economy is better because I took care of not putting more cities in the island where we already had 3, avoiding the maintenance skyrocketing.... as my plan is moving palace to there I might settle one or two more cities ( not sure... I think I could win with the current cities ), but now it would had been a unnecessary burden.
P.S I didn't trade techs in my turnset... besides KK Feud ( that I plan to grab sometime ) there was nothing in the table and I wasn't in the need of cash.
Astro makes me Saladin free in terms of GLH and that alone worths losing the collosus.... Besides that Observatories and ( especially ) Galleons are pretty useful. To add if you get hut lucky ( like I did
) you can think on something higher for Lib, like steel ( Cannons + ( Frigates + privateers on the way ) + drydocks )....And my economy is better than most saves, because of losing Colossus: my cities are finally working cottages
Seriously, my economy is better because I took care of not putting more cities in the island where we already had 3, avoiding the maintenance skyrocketing.... as my plan is moving palace to there I might settle one or two more cities ( not sure... I think I could win with the current cities ), but now it would had been a unnecessary burden.P.S I didn't trade techs in my turnset... besides KK Feud ( that I plan to grab sometime ) there was nothing in the table and I wasn't in the need of cash.
Bleys
Deity
I agree with rolo, it was worth it to pop Astronomy. I wouldnt bee-line it research-wise, because I think there are better tech paths for now, but I am not sweating the loss of Colossus at this point, since we have the entire map exposed and all cities open for trade. With Astro, the inevitable (ok I say "inevitable", some of you say "never needed") war with Saladin, either right away if we take a save where he built the AP, or just after he does if we take a save he hasnt) will be far less painful, since all of our "core" cities run through Sal's Open Border. We would actually lose the ability to trade with our own "New Islands" without Astro.
I actually think a war + vassalization of Sal, take the AP, get a Diplo Win (since we have a vassal to vote for us) would be the quickest path to a victory this game. A few more REXed out, fast growing cities and control of the AP without Sal being able to vote for himself would mean this game never even gets to Rifles or Combustion.
I actually think a war + vassalization of Sal, take the AP, get a Diplo Win (since we have a vassal to vote for us) would be the quickest path to a victory this game. A few more REXed out, fast growing cities and control of the AP without Sal being able to vote for himself would mean this game never even gets to Rifles or Combustion.
vale
Mathematician
I'll say it again. I think Versailles and the Forbidden Palace are being vastly overrated here. State Property eliminates all maintenance costs other than number of cities including dealing with the colonial expenses so it is huge. FP and Versailles don't do that and we can get by with courthouses and +gold, +science buildings if we work towards communism quickly. Depending on how the tech situation goes, we might even be able to slingshot communism off of liberalism which would be very nice because if it is possible, we would only have one turn after we obsolete our 3 best +gpp wonders before our economy sails with SP. With or without existing forbidden palaces, it will sail if only because it is also eliminating the colonial maintenance.
And that is just considering the commerce benefits of State Property which makes the economy much more robust than Free Market and ignores the very obvious production benefits which are just as huge on this map.
So lets see:
Pros
Supercharges commerce economy
Supercharges production economy
Free Great Spy (almost no way we won't be first if we don't push for it)
Cons
Obsoletes Great Library
Obsoletes Parthenon
Obsoletes Temple of Artemis
Ok, so ouch on the cons. I'll give you that much. But the pros outweigh it especially since we probably will need oil eventually anyway.
And that is just considering the commerce benefits of State Property which makes the economy much more robust than Free Market and ignores the very obvious production benefits which are just as huge on this map.
So lets see:
Pros
Supercharges commerce economy
Supercharges production economy
Free Great Spy (almost no way we won't be first if we don't push for it)
Cons
Obsoletes Great Library
Obsoletes Parthenon
Obsoletes Temple of Artemis
Ok, so ouch on the cons. I'll give you that much. But the pros outweigh it especially since we probably will need oil eventually anyway.
OTAKUjbski
TK421
I think you're underrating the Forbidden Palace. Specifically, I think you're underating moving the Palace.
If the goal is to continue settling on the "mainland", then moving the Palace there will eliminate Colonial Expenses for those new cities. The combination of building the FP in the old world should reduce the overall economic strain of that expansion.
Not to mention if that new city is Commerce-emphasized (something Berlin can't really do all too well with its tiles), the Bureaucracy bonus will give us more bang for our buck.
(Versailles in the middle is just icing.)
I have no argument against State Property, but I prefer to wait on it for a while.
I typically get Steel and Rifling before working my way through Scientific Method to give me as much time as possible in Nationhood to draft the Globe Theatre into dirt (which I might add I'll need to take from KK before I can even make that happen
).
If the goal is to continue settling on the "mainland", then moving the Palace there will eliminate Colonial Expenses for those new cities. The combination of building the FP in the old world should reduce the overall economic strain of that expansion.
Not to mention if that new city is Commerce-emphasized (something Berlin can't really do all too well with its tiles), the Bureaucracy bonus will give us more bang for our buck.
(Versailles in the middle is just icing.)
I have no argument against State Property, but I prefer to wait on it for a while.
I typically get Steel and Rifling before working my way through Scientific Method to give me as much time as possible in Nationhood to draft the Globe Theatre into dirt (which I might add I'll need to take from KK before I can even make that happen
).
Solon70
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2008
- Messages
- 249
I though the most interesting thing about my round was making the play for Versailles. That isn't to say it was the best move, only that I thought it was an interesting gambit. One thing this format demonstrates is that there are a lot of ways to skin a cat!
I guess it really depends at what point you see yourself fighting that first war. How many turns away from State Property do you figure we are, and can we really continue aggressive REX for that period of time with just courthouses? It seems to me that we haven't really felt the pinch just yet because we haven't settled a bunch of cities on the same land mass, but that day will come.
The bottom line is that there are a million different strategies that lead to a win from this strong position we've put ourselves in. I'm not sure we can ever determine which one is the "best," but I find a lot of value in just hearing about the different approaches and seeing ideas implemented that I might not have thought to try myself.
I guess it really depends at what point you see yourself fighting that first war. How many turns away from State Property do you figure we are, and can we really continue aggressive REX for that period of time with just courthouses? It seems to me that we haven't really felt the pinch just yet because we haven't settled a bunch of cities on the same land mass, but that day will come.
The bottom line is that there are a million different strategies that lead to a win from this strong position we've put ourselves in. I'm not sure we can ever determine which one is the "best," but I find a lot of value in just hearing about the different approaches and seeing ideas implemented that I might not have thought to try myself.
