Bleys
Deity
Futurehermit:
Spoiler :
Monarchists' Cookbook I
- Thread starter Diamondeye
- Start date
Bleys
Deity
We are discussing the spoiler issue in the Bullpen thread. Currently, the system is everything game-relevant in spoilers until all "Best Ballers" have played their round, or the Tuesday after the round starts, which is the deadline, but since RL comes first, there is a chance a Best-Baller may have to pass, and we vote on 4 saves instead of 5, or add a shadow game to the round.I'm still confused about the spoilers, btw. Since this is Diamondeye's thread, I guess I'll spoiler stuff until he says otherwise. Personally, I don't mind either way.
However, we are considering making it so that ONLY actual game reports (including shadows) go into the spoilers, and the discussion itself is done openly. This means that those "Best Ballers" who have not played MUST NOT come to the game thread until they have actually played their round and are ready to post it. I prefer this idea, because I agree with Refar and OTAK that putting 2-sentence replies of strat discussion into spoilers is a PITA both to post and to read.
@Nares
Yeah, that's a good point about the # of hammers already invested. I may add it later on tonight (if I can be bothered).
As for your game being stronger than it looks, I did notice that when collecting the info, but I don't really know how to reflect it in the stats. I assume you only played to 2100bc because you had a settler ready, but I think you'd have been better off choosing a spot and playing those last four turns. Meh, it's not really important.
And you're right that a category-by-category comparison could be more helpful. I'm not sure I have the stamina or concentration for that, though. We'll see...
@Bleys
So, just to be clear, the saves posted by non-best ballers won't even be considered unless one of you guys fails to post one?
I fully understand the reasons for that, but, looking at the saves, you've actually got a lot more variety if you include the non-BBer games. For example, none of the BBers have more than one city at this stage, while several of us non-BBers have Hamburg settled already (with three different spots chosen - only myself and v8mark have gone for the same one).
I don't know how this could be dealt with (maybe one or two guest saves for each round?), but it seems a shame to choose from a bunch of fairly similar saves when you've got so much variety available - not least because, this being Strategy and Tips, the discussion should be treated as more important than the actual choice (otherwise this game should really be in the SG forum imo).
To clarify, I'm quite happy for you not to include my saves in any vote (given the discussion so far, I can't see you guys choosing my current one anyway), but where someone else's offering gives more scope for disussion, I think you need to have a way of including it.
Yeah, that's a good point about the # of hammers already invested. I may add it later on tonight (if I can be bothered).
As for your game being stronger than it looks, I did notice that when collecting the info, but I don't really know how to reflect it in the stats. I assume you only played to 2100bc because you had a settler ready, but I think you'd have been better off choosing a spot and playing those last four turns. Meh, it's not really important.
And you're right that a category-by-category comparison could be more helpful. I'm not sure I have the stamina or concentration for that, though. We'll see...
@Bleys
So, just to be clear, the saves posted by non-best ballers won't even be considered unless one of you guys fails to post one?
I fully understand the reasons for that, but, looking at the saves, you've actually got a lot more variety if you include the non-BBer games. For example, none of the BBers have more than one city at this stage, while several of us non-BBers have Hamburg settled already (with three different spots chosen - only myself and v8mark have gone for the same one).
I don't know how this could be dealt with (maybe one or two guest saves for each round?), but it seems a shame to choose from a bunch of fairly similar saves when you've got so much variety available - not least because, this being Strategy and Tips, the discussion should be treated as more important than the actual choice (otherwise this game should really be in the SG forum imo).
To clarify, I'm quite happy for you not to include my saves in any vote (given the discussion so far, I can't see you guys choosing my current one anyway), but where someone else's offering gives more scope for disussion, I think you need to have a way of including it.
v8_mark
Prince
Winston:
As far as the discussion between BB saves and non-BB saves - I'm just playing it for comparison purposes anyway. Whichever save is used, I think it'll be an interesting exercise.
Spoiler :
As far as the discussion between BB saves and non-BB saves - I'm just playing it for comparison purposes anyway. Whichever save is used, I think it'll be an interesting exercise.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
@Bleys, ok I trust your judgement. I haven't played epic at all
Maybe that should be moved to the bullpen thread? I've already started a similar discussion which you're welcome to respond or add to.
I can't fault you for not wanting to go back and change those numbers. I offered the suggestion for the future. The hammer count is something you may want to change, and even expand.
There's more technique involved in counting hammers, planning whips, and tracking food than there is in early bpt output. I think engaging in this more intense level of analysis and preparation is something that clearly defines higher level players from lower level players.
While it seems intense, and while I use the term intense, I think it's a learned skill that becomes almost second nature over time. And the math isn't excessively difficult once you've learned to wrap your brain around it.
With regards to my own game, I left it at turn 76 precisely for the reason you offer; because the settler was freshly produced, and I was almost at the end of the turnset. I even left it on a forest tile capable of reaching three of the four primary island city sites that players have settled in.
I did note where I intended to settle, along with some other important notes pertaining to pre-chops and an upcoming whip, so that the save is more readily picked up by others without them feeling like my strategy is drastically off from theirs.
At least it's not marathon.
Epic is indeed a sort of happy medium, though it will make this particular series "drag on," which may already be an issue with week-long turnsets.
OTAKUjbski
TK421
I'm usually a stubborn bloke, but I'll conform to the PITA spoilers until a decision is hammered out in the bullpen ...
BEST BALL OBSERVATIONS:
BEST BALL OBSERVATIONS:
Spoiler dotmap and best ball save stuff :
from religion.I think a major problem with the spoilers lies in carrying on an actual discussion. For example, I label this "@Winston" because I am writing in response to one of his statements, but it's a discussion that's open to everyone. I write "@Winston" to make him aware that I'm writing in response to one of his statements, but I don't know how many people who are not Winston end up ignoring the post because it is specifically labeled "@Wintson."
Then again, just the blank spoiler would exclude many players who may know all of the contained spoiler information, but are unsure because they cannot verify for fear of exposure to spoiler information.
And a pre-spoiler spoiler seems a bit cumbersome.
I think that's why Ruff_Hi's group chose to establish precise dates for reporting, discussion and play. It seems more feasible to do this with a "smaller" group (based on the number of posters in this thread, the actual size of the groups are fairly similar, but there's no limit on players here). Also worth noting is that that CSG played with a number of veteran SGers. Indeed, the longer turnsets seemed welcomed in that game, as some players were already involved in other SGs and could only handle turnsets with so large a window.
@Winston
Then again, just the blank spoiler would exclude many players who may know all of the contained spoiler information, but are unsure because they cannot verify for fear of exposure to spoiler information.
And a pre-spoiler spoiler seems a bit cumbersome.
I think that's why Ruff_Hi's group chose to establish precise dates for reporting, discussion and play. It seems more feasible to do this with a "smaller" group (based on the number of posters in this thread, the actual size of the groups are fairly similar, but there's no limit on players here). Also worth noting is that that CSG played with a number of veteran SGers. Indeed, the longer turnsets seemed welcomed in that game, as some players were already involved in other SGs and could only handle turnsets with so large a window.
@Winston
Spoiler :
Bleys
Deity
Thats why we didnt break it down in small chunks like a "normal" SG would be, we took quite big bites out of it. I think the game is broken down into 6 sessions, so thats 6 weeks of play. I expect later rounds will be VERY active with differing strategies, as more and more choices become available. These first couple rounds really only have a few options, especially in this particular game, everyone immediately said "GLH Map, Trade Route economy" and proceeded accordingly. Such a narrow scope of options will widen considerably on more AI-intensive maps.
That is the current plan, but we are all very open to new ideas and suggestions to improve the format. This being the Maiden Voyage, I am thinking the first couple rounds at least will be "just chosen best-ballers", but I like the idea of picking one or two of the shadows as "possibles".
This is a discussion for the Bullpen thread though, certainly, so please post that idea over there, its a strong one. This is a different format from the standard SG though, which is why we placed it here. We dont want a "pure" SG, we want a discussable, educational game that highlights the thought processes of a variety of players in identical situations.
The more I look at this map, the more I think we need to make breaking out of Sal's grip our #1 priority. That doesn't mean we should attack asap (that would probably be suicide), but it does mean we shouldn't distract ourselves with things that'll push the invasion back another 50+ turns beyond what it'll take anyway.
To me, the city sites currently available are simply not good enough to make a decent start to the game, and spamming wonders still doesn't strike me as a smart way to spend our limited supply of hammers.
I agree that the GLh is a no brainer. But, beyond that, it may be that teching straight to Construction (with or without Oracular assistance) while building a nice big stack of axes is our best hope of getting the dirty deed done in time.
Maybe my judgement is being clouded by claustrophobia (I'll admit that I really hate being boxed in this early).
Or maybe I'm giving the Monarch AI too much credit (I have been known to play Noble as if it's Immortal, spamming troops and inciting wars like the AI actually posed a threat).
But I fear that this game will hit a protective longbow/crossbow-shaped wall if we put all our eggs in the shiny basket.
To me, the city sites currently available are simply not good enough to make a decent start to the game, and spamming wonders still doesn't strike me as a smart way to spend our limited supply of hammers.
I agree that the GLh is a no brainer. But, beyond that, it may be that teching straight to Construction (with or without Oracular assistance) while building a nice big stack of axes is our best hope of getting the dirty deed done in time.
Maybe my judgement is being clouded by claustrophobia (I'll admit that I really hate being boxed in this early).
Or maybe I'm giving the Monarch AI too much credit (I have been known to play Noble as if it's Immortal, spamming troops and inciting wars like the AI actually posed a threat).
But I fear that this game will hit a protective longbow/crossbow-shaped wall if we put all our eggs in the shiny basket.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
Spoiler :
OTAKUjbski
TK421
I think we're getting ahead of ourselves with talk of crushing Saladin.
I try as hard as possible to not make knee-jerk reactions like "OMG, I see somebody; let's kill them right now with Axes". Even Hilltop Protective Longbows don't stand a chance to a well-timed and focused stack of Catapults (+ anything).
I agree we need to keep Sal in our sights, but I'm not sure we can (or should) make the decision to attack him until after we see his whole island and what's on the other side of it.
Based on
ratios, we know Sal has met at least 1 civ, so it might be the case that we're both boxed into our little islands by that other civ.
It's also possible Sal's island is a gateway to the rest of the map -- in which case having GLH alone makes settling peacefully (at least for the time being) on the other side to box him in a plausible gameplan. (Especially if we get all the early GM & GP
we're anticipating.)
In a worst-case scenario, with GLH and Colossus, we can squeeze 5 small, satellite cities on our islands to support research while Berlin and a Floodplains production city bulk up on military units. One smooth strike to Mecca, and Saladin will be out of the picture ... it'll just be a matter of mopping him up after the fall of Mecca.
--------
Right now, we don't know what the rest of the world looks like. For all we know, every other civ is on sizeable continents with ample land and resources to consume.
If that's true, then bum-rushing Saladin with less-than-stellar footing will only serve to cement our position as the loser in this game -- especially if we lose the GLH or Colossus in the process!)
On the other hand, if everybody is in the same position on tiny islands all over the map, then securing GLH and Colossus will guarantee we're making the most of our lands and considerably more than the other civs. Whereas this may appear to be a short term loss, it will be a significant longterm advantage which we will later leverage to acquire more land, vassals, etcetera via tech superiority.
EDIT: It's also worth mentioning GLH and ToA are most powerful when at least one peaceful trading partner is kept over the long term course of the game. If it is plausible to settle land on the other side of Saladin, then boxing him in but keeping him as a peaceful trading partner will grant us the most bang for our buck until another, more distant, trading partner is revealed.
My game isn't always about getting the most bang for my buck and coming out leaps and bounds ahead of the rest and winning in the BC's -- it's about managing risk and making the move that is most likely to put me in a superior position to win [before 2050 AD]. If we assume the worst that everybody else has great land, then we NEED to make the most of our zone ASAP!
-- more of my 2
I try as hard as possible to not make knee-jerk reactions like "OMG, I see somebody; let's kill them right now with Axes". Even Hilltop Protective Longbows don't stand a chance to a well-timed and focused stack of Catapults (+ anything).
I agree we need to keep Sal in our sights, but I'm not sure we can (or should) make the decision to attack him until after we see his whole island and what's on the other side of it.
Based on
ratios, we know Sal has met at least 1 civ, so it might be the case that we're both boxed into our little islands by that other civ.It's also possible Sal's island is a gateway to the rest of the map -- in which case having GLH alone makes settling peacefully (at least for the time being) on the other side to box him in a plausible gameplan. (Especially if we get all the early GM & GP
we're anticipating.)In a worst-case scenario, with GLH and Colossus, we can squeeze 5 small, satellite cities on our islands to support research while Berlin and a Floodplains production city bulk up on military units. One smooth strike to Mecca, and Saladin will be out of the picture ... it'll just be a matter of mopping him up after the fall of Mecca.
--------
Right now, we don't know what the rest of the world looks like. For all we know, every other civ is on sizeable continents with ample land and resources to consume.
If that's true, then bum-rushing Saladin with less-than-stellar footing will only serve to cement our position as the loser in this game -- especially if we lose the GLH or Colossus in the process!)
On the other hand, if everybody is in the same position on tiny islands all over the map, then securing GLH and Colossus will guarantee we're making the most of our lands and considerably more than the other civs. Whereas this may appear to be a short term loss, it will be a significant longterm advantage which we will later leverage to acquire more land, vassals, etcetera via tech superiority.
EDIT: It's also worth mentioning GLH and ToA are most powerful when at least one peaceful trading partner is kept over the long term course of the game. If it is plausible to settle land on the other side of Saladin, then boxing him in but keeping him as a peaceful trading partner will grant us the most bang for our buck until another, more distant, trading partner is revealed.
My game isn't always about getting the most bang for my buck and coming out leaps and bounds ahead of the rest and winning in the BC's -- it's about managing risk and making the move that is most likely to put me in a superior position to win [before 2050 AD]. If we assume the worst that everybody else has great land, then we NEED to make the most of our zone ASAP!
-- more of my 2
thefais
Chieftain
This is a really cool idea - I think I will join in next time, hopefully I'll have worked up to Monarch by then - starting on prince (long overdue) tonight!
v8_mark
Prince
I tend to agree with Winston that the ultimate wonder-spam strategy is a questionable idea.
Teching to Construction in a reasonable timeframe is not something that's beyond us without wonders. I reckon with the GLH and 5-6 satellite cities, we can easily get there by 500BC - our production is not great, but it's good enough to manage a few axes/swords/cats to take Saladin down.
On the other hand, with protective archers *and* cultural defense, this is likely to take a while, and could be very costly indeed.
But what's the alternative? Build wonders like they're going out of fashion, and restrict ourselves to (possibly) 5-6 cities while the rest of the land is grabbed? It's true we don't know what's further to the south - it might be that there's a perfectly hospitable 3-4 cities there, in which case we'd be fine. But it's quite a chance to take - nothing would be more catastrophic for our game if we're struggling with a handful of sub-optimal cities into the Middle Ages, facing the prospect of protective longbows on hills.
So - basically - I think we should leverage any short-term teching advantage while we have it. That is, by spamming coastal cities, we can use the GLH and possibly an Oracle/MC-fuelled Colossus to keep our research pace pretty hot (which it will be). We'd then be in a great position to build enough galleys, cats and swords/axes to take Saladin out before he's able to hit Feudalism.
Teching to Construction in a reasonable timeframe is not something that's beyond us without wonders. I reckon with the GLH and 5-6 satellite cities, we can easily get there by 500BC - our production is not great, but it's good enough to manage a few axes/swords/cats to take Saladin down.
On the other hand, with protective archers *and* cultural defense, this is likely to take a while, and could be very costly indeed.
But what's the alternative? Build wonders like they're going out of fashion, and restrict ourselves to (possibly) 5-6 cities while the rest of the land is grabbed? It's true we don't know what's further to the south - it might be that there's a perfectly hospitable 3-4 cities there, in which case we'd be fine. But it's quite a chance to take - nothing would be more catastrophic for our game if we're struggling with a handful of sub-optimal cities into the Middle Ages, facing the prospect of protective longbows on hills.
So - basically - I think we should leverage any short-term teching advantage while we have it. That is, by spamming coastal cities, we can use the GLH and possibly an Oracle/MC-fuelled Colossus to keep our research pace pretty hot (which it will be). We'd then be in a great position to build enough galleys, cats and swords/axes to take Saladin out before he's able to hit Feudalism.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
A reasonable alternative is build wonders to solidify our economy and then hit him with maces while he hasn't hit longbows yet.
At the very least I think we need to stabilize our economy before we consider attacking, irregardless of what units we choose to attack with.
That doesn't mean we need to build wonders "like they're going out of style". I think 4-5 wonders for an industrious leader isn't unreasonable and they all synergize nicely.
At the very least I think we need to stabilize our economy before we consider attacking, irregardless of what units we choose to attack with.
That doesn't mean we need to build wonders "like they're going out of style". I think 4-5 wonders for an industrious leader isn't unreasonable and they all synergize nicely.
Bleys
Deity
Choosing our Wonder Path in a game like this is as important as the Tech Path. Trade Route Economies are extremely powerful, and the 4 Wonders we are looking at all contribute to that plan.
I also agree we should be looking at Machinery-CS beeline for Maces to attack Saladin, with Trebs if possible, but Cats will do if we have enough spy points to open up a few cities. I want to remember to be sure I assign Sal a higher ratio once we meet some other AIs, but right now we are building up a small stockpile.
After making just such a "blunder," I now think it's more practical to spread your EPs until you foresee oncoming use of them, at which point you crank the slider up for a few turns.
The premise is simple, and one I describe in the recent thread I posted in the Strategy Articles sub-forum.
Increasing your EP expenditure against a specific AI is likely to provoke that AI into increasing it's EP expenditure against you. The end result is that you need to pile up even more EPs against that AI in an attempt to maximize the EP ratio cost reduction modifier.
It's an idea I developed from the recent PYLII game, in which I applied all my passive EPs against a single AI who responded by doing a decent job matching my EP ratio.
I agree with futurehermit that establishing an economy, and gaining a tech advantage before taking on Saladin, would be the ideal course of action. To be honest, establishing an economy and teching is about all we can do until we explore further and find more land to settle on.
I disagree. The way I approach things, one of the key questions throughout the early part of the game is always "where's the food?". The only answer we have right now is "not around here".
So, to me, the main feature of our situation is that we appear to be separated from the food we're going to need by a protective civ with a moat. Taking him down will not be cheap, but it could well be our only option, so we need to start planning for it now.
But if tech isn't the issue, numbers may well be. Put too many non-essential builds (and techs) between now and when we start the buildup and the buildup will come too late. I reckon four early wonders from a low production start when there's a protective leader in our way sounds like too many.
I really wouldn't want to risk being stuck with this sorry handful of islands by the time the Liberalism race is getting underway. Look at the resources - two health, no happiness.
It's not that we have to commit to war now, it's that we ought to give ourselves the ability to strike if and when the time is right. Fixing up much of the next round for wonder-building risks leaving us way behind where we'll want to be in our preparations.
Plus, those preparations aren't just combat units - we'll need cities, and those cities will need buildings and improvements (cottages asap will be the only sensible option for at least two of our cities). We'd also need transport.
The later all that comes online, the less control we have over when we strike.
And bear in mind that, with the infrastructure in place, we could still decide against an invasion before the bulk of the troops are built. There are plenty more wonders further up the tech-tree.
As you say, we don't yet know what we're up against here, but I'd say making preparations for a possible/probable invasion leaves us a lot more flexibility than going for a stack of wonders straight away.
Still, whichever way it goes, this is shaping up to be a fascinating game.
Similar threads
