It might be worthwhile to hope for a GM and run an early trade mission for quick upgrades. Pre-build obsolete units while you're waiting on techs to enable the upgrades.
Or drop the commerce slider to zero and build up the cash for upgrades.
Monarchists' Cookbook I
- Thread starter Diamondeye
- Start date
Or drop the commerce slider to zero and build up the cash for upgrades.
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
Okay finally got around to playing my first round, in spoiler below:
Spoiler :
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
We can prebuild galleys and catapults then just add maces when we get them and go strike. That way we are prepared. Our other cities can do that as our capital is building wonders.
@Diamondeye:
@Diamondeye:
Spoiler :
Bleys
Deity
Good turn D, you came to the same conclusions we did, mostly. My original dotmap also had Hamburg in that spot, but as a shadow player pointed out, there is no food there. No way to chain in farms even after CS. Mine working will be limited. I even had it labeled "Production City", but there is no food excess at all, even with a lighthouse.
I realize this has been tricky. I think we need to tweak our format some, the play-deadline is fine, but I think we may want a "earliest post deadline" as well. I played mine quickly, I was ready to play, had put other projects aside, etc, and posted, and by the time the next one of us posted, there were also 3 shadow games up. This has led to a lively, spoiler encased discussion that has use leaning toward a few things.
Settling ON the marble looks better than any other spot. Leaves 2 reasonable city sites on that island, splitting the floodplains (see futurehermits dotmap, mine has a minor difference, 1 city 3W of marble instead of 4W, for the river and future levy.
Rolo has a darn solid game, looks to be the best of all, even better than some of the shadows (which were better than a couple of ours, we have strong players following this idea). Lots to discuss about the format (mostly taken to the bullpen thread), but for this particular game, I think we are settled on rolo's game. He has Priesthood. He has Masonry. He has a LH in Berlin. He is building his first settler.
Settling ON the Marble gives us 2 things. Immediate access to marble in Berlin from Sailing, and a 2nd city with an extra hammer in the city-tile, no food required. This allows ToA to immediately follow GLH in Berlin, while Hamburg builds the Oracle (my plan, anyway, some others suggest putting them all in Berlin). MC off the Oracle seems like a consensus. The idea is that IND aided forges + opening Colossus is a great path.
We need your help in the Bullpen thread though, there is a lot of discussion about a few things happening there. Guest players, use of spoilers, and the posting schedule are all being discussed. We planned for flexibility though, and the discussion is certainly being done in a positive manner. Lots of fans already, you have yourself a New Hit Series! LOL, well done mate, proud to be a part of your little project.
I realize this has been tricky. I think we need to tweak our format some, the play-deadline is fine, but I think we may want a "earliest post deadline" as well. I played mine quickly, I was ready to play, had put other projects aside, etc, and posted, and by the time the next one of us posted, there were also 3 shadow games up. This has led to a lively, spoiler encased discussion that has use leaning toward a few things.
Settling ON the marble looks better than any other spot. Leaves 2 reasonable city sites on that island, splitting the floodplains (see futurehermits dotmap, mine has a minor difference, 1 city 3W of marble instead of 4W, for the river and future levy.
Rolo has a darn solid game, looks to be the best of all, even better than some of the shadows (which were better than a couple of ours, we have strong players following this idea). Lots to discuss about the format (mostly taken to the bullpen thread), but for this particular game, I think we are settled on rolo's game. He has Priesthood. He has Masonry. He has a LH in Berlin. He is building his first settler.
Settling ON the Marble gives us 2 things. Immediate access to marble in Berlin from Sailing, and a 2nd city with an extra hammer in the city-tile, no food required. This allows ToA to immediately follow GLH in Berlin, while Hamburg builds the Oracle (my plan, anyway, some others suggest putting them all in Berlin). MC off the Oracle seems like a consensus. The idea is that IND aided forges + opening Colossus is a great path.
We need your help in the Bullpen thread though, there is a lot of discussion about a few things happening there. Guest players, use of spoilers, and the posting schedule are all being discussed. We planned for flexibility though, and the discussion is certainly being done in a positive manner. Lots of fans already, you have yourself a New Hit Series! LOL, well done mate, proud to be a part of your little project.
Looks like we need to talk about cities...
@Diamondeye
I'm afraid that Hamburg (not Munich - check your screenshots) won't be any kind of powerhouse, as it's not going to have a single food positive tile for a very, very long time.
All it can do (pre-Communism/Biology) is work cottages, coasts, and, at the expense of half its food surplus (leaving 1
growth per turn), the marble.
Anyway, I'll add your details to my list later on (assuming I have time).
@futurehermit
How do you plan to get those cities up and running if you're spamming wonders? Other than the capital, no city will be in a position to build a settler for some time. Even once they're working all the tiles they can, the surpluses will be pretty mediocre even in the best cities. And before that, we'll need improvements and buildings.
If you want to claim the marble and the copper in time to speed up the wonders, that's two crap cities that need to go down soon. So soon, in fact, that it will surely come before any of the better cities is ready to build a settler, meaning we either have to leave the better sites until later, or else the capital will need to build 3-4 settlers on its own.
@Diamondeye
I'm afraid that Hamburg (not Munich - check your screenshots) won't be any kind of powerhouse, as it's not going to have a single food positive tile for a very, very long time.
All it can do (pre-Communism/Biology) is work cottages, coasts, and, at the expense of half its food surplus (leaving 1
growth per turn), the marble.Anyway, I'll add your details to my list later on (assuming I have time).
@futurehermit
How do you plan to get those cities up and running if you're spamming wonders? Other than the capital, no city will be in a position to build a settler for some time. Even once they're working all the tiles they can, the surpluses will be pretty mediocre even in the best cities. And before that, we'll need improvements and buildings.
If you want to claim the marble and the copper in time to speed up the wonders, that's two crap cities that need to go down soon. So soon, in fact, that it will surely come before any of the better cities is ready to build a settler, meaning we either have to leave the better sites until later, or else the capital will need to build 3-4 settlers on its own.
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
Yeah Rolo seems to be running a good game
I like OTAKU's alot aswell, a really different approach. That's the annoying thing about this format, we'll have to leave out some saves aswell 
... Might be fun to see if it pays off to delay settler due to the GL...I don't think I'm good at the next round since everyone keeps talking about Oracle slingshots - I'm not really into that. My impression is that the AI gets there really early, perhaps we're already too far behind in religious techs (my save, atleast, and yours), and I tend to stay clear of religious techs until I need CoL, then go Med>Pri>CoL. The religious techs doesn't really pay off well imho, unless ofc you get lots o wonders, and that's what we're planning, luckily
. Just played a maya game where I missed 4 wonders by one turn or so (got Mids though), and lived solitaire with Zara. Duuuuuh. I quit, after trying an engi-beeline-powered war against longbows 
.And thanks for the props. I might have to underline that this is our series, mate
You're doin a nice job, and so are the others Especially OTAKUs help with the save and stuff has been useful. I am so stressed in school these last two/three weeks 
Looks like we need to talk about cities...
@Diamondeye
I'm afraid that Hamburg (not Munich - check your screenshots) won't be any kind of powerhouse, as it's not going to have a single food positive tile for a very, very long time.
All it can do (pre-Communism/Biology) is work cottages, coasts, and, at the expense of half its food surplus (leaving 1
Anyway, I'll add your details to my list later on (assuming I have time).
@futurehermit
How do you plan to get those cities up and running if you're spamming wonders? Other than the capital, no city will be in a position to build a settler for some time. Even once they're working all the tiles they can, the surpluses will be pretty mediocre even in the best cities. And before that, we'll need improvements and buildings.
If you want to claim the marble and the copper in time to speed up the wonders, that's two crap cities that need to go down soon. So soon, in fact, that it will surely come before any of the better cities is ready to build a settler, meaning we either have to leave the better sites until later, or else the capital will need to build 3-4 settlers on its own.
I was aware that the location was subpar, talking food, but I felt that the other city should be 4S of Berlin, and this was the only other spot on the island that made sense... It claims marble after all...
r_rolo1
King of myself
A correction: I don't have Masonry yet IIRC
I still have to check the games ( BTW I think that we should limit the saves pool to 7, just to not force to 3-4 h looking at saves and taking notes
..... maybe the roster ones and the best out of the lurkers? 
), but I think that OTAKU has a interesting gam(bl)e going on and ( as i'm suficiently humble to not vote in myself ... just kidding 
) my first impression is to vote for OTAKU save.
A personal thought. Lots of players sacrificed a lot of forests this soon... I simply can't see why. We are in a prod confined enviroment and extensive chopping is far from being the best move....
And about the settling of the marble island: I think that the only feasible aproach pre Electricity is to make cities that share the FP and farm them. Lots of overlap, but it can be done and it is far better than the setling on marble or in the first ring.
I still have to check the games ( BTW I think that we should limit the saves pool to 7, just to not force to 3-4 h looking at saves and taking notes
..... maybe the roster ones and the best out of the lurkers? ), but I think that OTAKU has a interesting gam(bl)e going on and ( as i'm suficiently humble to not vote in myself ... just kidding ) my first impression is to vote for OTAKU save.A personal thought. Lots of players sacrificed a lot of forests this soon... I simply can't see why. We are in a prod confined enviroment and extensive chopping is far from being the best move....
And about the settling of the marble island: I think that the only feasible aproach pre Electricity is to make cities that share the FP and farm them. Lots of overlap, but it can be done and it is far better than the setling on marble or in the first ring.
OTAKUjbski
TK421
A correction: I don't have Masonry yet IIRC
No worries ... by the time you finish a Settler and the Oracle, you will!
I still have to check the games ( BTW I think that we should limit the saves pool to 7, just to not force to 3-4 h looking at saves and taking notes
My initial reaction was to vote for myself since I have the most important wonder, the GLH, in the bag, but after looking at the saves, I realize yours is much stronger.
This probably got lost in the spoilers, so I'll link to it from here ... http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6768269&postcount=129.
Those are my observations from our games. Your save is in a very strong position to get everything. If my numbers are correct, you can get the Oracle, GLH and a Forge in Berlin by 1000 BC!
EDIT: In fact, it looks like you could still pull all that off without building on Marble, which would open up the possibility of settling elsewhere instead!
--------
Yeah Rolo seems to be running a good game
--------
What do we do after voting for the best save?
On one hand, discussing strategy and getting pointers is great, but won't that just mean we'll all be doing the same thing in the next round with little deviation?
If we don't discuss strategy openly and let everybody come to their own conclusions, then it's more likely we'll see more strategic variety.
IDK.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
Well, my initial thought was just spam the wonders and add settlers after. But the group has pointed out that settling on the marble will help, and now I am inclined to agree (I was also basing my thoughts on normal speed, so that is part of the problem).
Besides claiming the marble and copper for the wonders I see no need to rush to the other subpar sites, but instead we can settle them when we are ready.
The wonders are our top priority, so the best path to claiming them is what we need to be concerned with at this point. Once the wonders are done then a war of expansion becomes important.
Bleys
Deity
Hmm, rolo doesnt have Masonry yet. That leans me toward MY save, to be honest. I have Masonry, and Myst, I can get to Poly and Priest once Pottery finishes. I can whip the Settler and shuttle him to the marble while I do that, and be nearly ready to start the Oracle in the Marble City ASAP, while Berlin builds GLH right away, and ToA immediately following, with some delays for an additional Worker and Settler to be built with whip-overflow into the Wonders.
Of course, Rolo's save can research Masonry next, start the Oracle ASAP in the Marble City, and bust out the ToA before the GLH, but that delays GLH dangerously close to losing it.
And OTAK makes a strong point, but I think we have room for some strategic varieties, due to the length of the turn sets. I think discussion is going to create a strong similarity among turns though. We sort of didnt take this into consideration, heh. However, similar doesnt mean the same. We already see the variable nature of the same path in the first round of saves. I KNOW that my personal skill is actually improved JUST by this one, single set of turns. I see where I could have played better, planned better, I see things I should have considered, like the food in my first dotmap, the positioning of the copper city, the idea that we will be able to get away with more overlap and pack more cities in to take better advantage of the Trade Route Economy, for example, all things I didnt think about too extensively when playing my turns. Subtle differences in thoughts and plans is what we are after, and I think we can get a lot of education in that regard. After all, having the same "plan" and executing that plan efficiently are two different things.
Of course, Rolo's save can research Masonry next, start the Oracle ASAP in the Marble City, and bust out the ToA before the GLH, but that delays GLH dangerously close to losing it.
And OTAK makes a strong point, but I think we have room for some strategic varieties, due to the length of the turn sets. I think discussion is going to create a strong similarity among turns though. We sort of didnt take this into consideration, heh. However, similar doesnt mean the same. We already see the variable nature of the same path in the first round of saves. I KNOW that my personal skill is actually improved JUST by this one, single set of turns. I see where I could have played better, planned better, I see things I should have considered, like the food in my first dotmap, the positioning of the copper city, the idea that we will be able to get away with more overlap and pack more cities in to take better advantage of the Trade Route Economy, for example, all things I didnt think about too extensively when playing my turns. Subtle differences in thoughts and plans is what we are after, and I think we can get a lot of education in that regard. After all, having the same "plan" and executing that plan efficiently are two different things.
hehe, you wonder-crazed roster guys may all think the same way...
But I can assure you that, for better or worse, my next turnset will look very different. Even if you do stick me with a wonder-biased save, I won't be building a shiny paradise.
Actually, tbh, I'd be quite happy going from any of the 1-city saves except futurehermit's one (no offence, man, it's just that the ToA doesn't feature in my plans).
Of the 2-city saves, only mine and v8_mark's hold any appeal. In the circumstances, I certainly don't think vale or slobberinbear were foolish to settle where they did. And the rest of us will be the ones looking foolish if Sal manages to nick that copper (not that I think it's terribly likely). But unless I'm going for a rush, I'd rather leave the junk cities 'til after the good ones (or what passes for them around here).
Bleys
Deity
Dont underestimate the power of the GLH. You dont even need courthouses with this Wonder in order for cities to support themselves out of the box, its crazy strong. Even without another AI in sight, most cities can support themselves with the extra income from trade routes + colossus without a courthouse. That means you can expand almost at will. Later, when you have met the other AIs and open some borders, the power of these wonders magnifies in a way that is unmatchable by a CE or an SE, to be perfectly honest. Especially when you have a heavy water map, which this one may be (cant tell, we may be on a small island on a B&S or M&S map).
I look for excuses to run this type of system these days. Isnt a few key wonders the best way to leverage the IND trait?
I look for excuses to run this type of system these days. Isnt a few key wonders the best way to leverage the IND trait?
Solon70
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2008
- Messages
- 249
I'm probably biased because I'm not a huge builder of early wonders in general, but I'm really feeling iffy about the wisdom of building the Oracle on this map. Consider the "opportunity costs" we incur by going for the Oracle:
1) All the turns we spend researching Meditation and Priesthood, which we could save for later;
2) All the growth and production we could get from our second city if we settled it in a good location, as opposed to using our hard-earned settler for a city that gets us marble and nothing else;
3) All the turns our only production city will be tied up building the thing.
It really starts to make me wonder if we don't come out ahead by just researching Metal Casting the old-fashioned way.
Of the items I've listed, #1 and #3 apply to a lot of early wonder situations; it's #2 that I feel is most critical. Let's talk about the return we get on our 100-hammer investment in that settler to found marble city:
Unless my math is awful, it takes 100 hammers (w/ Industrious) to build the Oracle without marble. 60 hammers with marble and Industrious, right?
ToA is more expensive - 266 hammers w/o marble, 160 with. Still, we're not saving much more than the hammers we spent to build the settler in the first place.
Of course, the math isn't exact, because we build settlers with food as well as hammers. But the real comparison is not "what if we didn't build a settler," but "what if we used the settler for a real city instead." If we burn our first settler on the marble, how long is it going to be before we get those flood plains developed, with 4 early wonders on our to-do list?
I'd offer up the following points for discussion:
1) Founding the marble city is worth it in hammer terms only if we manage to build BOTH the Oracle and the ToA. The primary reason for this is that the city adds almost zero value aside from hooking up marble; if it was a mediocre but serviceable city, we'd have a different issue.
2) The GLH and Colossus are THE most important wonders on this map, are they not? It would be a tragedy if we lost out on either of them because we invested so much effort in the Oracle and ToA. (Of course, the Oracle opens up the Colossus faster, but at the cost of retarding our development in other respects.)
3) For these reasons, the wonder-spam strategy seems like an error in judgment UNLESS we get all four of the wonders we're aiming for.
I'd be very curious to see a comparison between the wonder-spam strategy and a more focused strategy that involves using our first settler for the best available city site, focusing on the GLH as our first major build, and researching MC manually to build the Colossus - ignoring marble and the two marble-based wonders altogether. (Building the Oracle without marble, and ignoring the ToA, is an option on the table as well.) Will Berlin's border pop pick up the copper by the time we're ready to start the Colossus, or will that need to be settled?
1) All the turns we spend researching Meditation and Priesthood, which we could save for later;
2) All the growth and production we could get from our second city if we settled it in a good location, as opposed to using our hard-earned settler for a city that gets us marble and nothing else;
3) All the turns our only production city will be tied up building the thing.
It really starts to make me wonder if we don't come out ahead by just researching Metal Casting the old-fashioned way.
Of the items I've listed, #1 and #3 apply to a lot of early wonder situations; it's #2 that I feel is most critical. Let's talk about the return we get on our 100-hammer investment in that settler to found marble city:
Unless my math is awful, it takes 100 hammers (w/ Industrious) to build the Oracle without marble. 60 hammers with marble and Industrious, right?
ToA is more expensive - 266 hammers w/o marble, 160 with. Still, we're not saving much more than the hammers we spent to build the settler in the first place.
Of course, the math isn't exact, because we build settlers with food as well as hammers. But the real comparison is not "what if we didn't build a settler," but "what if we used the settler for a real city instead." If we burn our first settler on the marble, how long is it going to be before we get those flood plains developed, with 4 early wonders on our to-do list?
I'd offer up the following points for discussion:
1) Founding the marble city is worth it in hammer terms only if we manage to build BOTH the Oracle and the ToA. The primary reason for this is that the city adds almost zero value aside from hooking up marble; if it was a mediocre but serviceable city, we'd have a different issue.
2) The GLH and Colossus are THE most important wonders on this map, are they not? It would be a tragedy if we lost out on either of them because we invested so much effort in the Oracle and ToA. (Of course, the Oracle opens up the Colossus faster, but at the cost of retarding our development in other respects.)
3) For these reasons, the wonder-spam strategy seems like an error in judgment UNLESS we get all four of the wonders we're aiming for.
I'd be very curious to see a comparison between the wonder-spam strategy and a more focused strategy that involves using our first settler for the best available city site, focusing on the GLH as our first major build, and researching MC manually to build the Colossus - ignoring marble and the two marble-based wonders altogether. (Building the Oracle without marble, and ignoring the ToA, is an option on the table as well.) Will Berlin's border pop pick up the copper by the time we're ready to start the Colossus, or will that need to be settled?
Bleys
Deity
I see some of your point, but the cost reduction of such a powerful wonder like the Oracle cannot be ignored. 15 turns in the Marble city itself. Thats huge, and a VERY cheap cost for MC. So instead of teching MC, I can tech Writing and CoL, and maybe found Confu while gaining access to 2 important buildings, Libraries and Courthouses. We kind of need Myst no matter what for culture, and Poly opens up the ToA, another strong TR Wonder, especially since we have Marble, so the only "extra" I see is Priesthood. I will trade Poly and Priest for MC any day.
If we were not IND and did not have access to Marble, then I would agree that skipping the Oracle and ToA would be the best plan. But we have those 2 things going for us, so I think its much stronger to leverage them to our advantage rather than ignore them as "extras". Marble opens up more Wonders later as well.
Next set is going to pose another question. Is Aestetics and Lit a wasted tech line for the Great Library? I say no way, since we are IND and have Marble, and Aestetics is highly tradeable.
Of course, I am a self-admitted Wonder Addict, which is why I tend to play these middle levels rather than move up to Emp or Immortal. I LIKE building them, it makes the game FUN for me. I have already seen my Wonder production and choices go downhill just moving from Noble to Prince to Monarch. I never chase religions, or build Stoney, or such anymore. But most Monarch games with a lot of coastal cities, I am looking to build the GLH and Oracle sling to MC for the Colossus and Forges, even without being IND and no access to Marble. No reason to alter that plan when I am IND and have Marble, in fact, its twice as good this way.
If we were not IND and did not have access to Marble, then I would agree that skipping the Oracle and ToA would be the best plan. But we have those 2 things going for us, so I think its much stronger to leverage them to our advantage rather than ignore them as "extras". Marble opens up more Wonders later as well.
Next set is going to pose another question. Is Aestetics and Lit a wasted tech line for the Great Library? I say no way, since we are IND and have Marble, and Aestetics is highly tradeable.
Of course, I am a self-admitted Wonder Addict, which is why I tend to play these middle levels rather than move up to Emp or Immortal. I LIKE building them, it makes the game FUN for me. I have already seen my Wonder production and choices go downhill just moving from Noble to Prince to Monarch. I never chase religions, or build Stoney, or such anymore. But most Monarch games with a lot of coastal cities, I am looking to build the GLH and Oracle sling to MC for the Colossus and Forges, even without being IND and no access to Marble. No reason to alter that plan when I am IND and have Marble, in fact, its twice as good this way.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Solon70, you picked my point of view pretty well... making the 4 proposed wonders is iffy as hell and it can be more detrimental than anything else. That is why I am defending for a while to not settle in the marble ( at least now ) and to not build ToA ( IMHO is a wonder too heavy for what it does, at least with the AI preferences of BtS ).
My idea ( and OTAKU picked it pretty well from my save ) is to get Oracle, TGL and Collosus, not necessarily in the same city... I don't think it is overkill.
A point that you overlooked in your analysis: MC is not just about Collosus, it is also about forges , that are half priced by the Ind trait and that boost prod ( a thing that we sourly need in this map ). It also is about trirremes ,the strongest naval unit until Optics. The sooner, the better....
My idea ( and OTAKU picked it pretty well from my save ) is to get Oracle, TGL and Collosus, not necessarily in the same city... I don't think it is overkill.
A point that you overlooked in your analysis: MC is not just about Collosus, it is also about forges , that are half priced by the Ind trait and that boost prod ( a thing that we sourly need in this map ). It also is about trirremes ,the strongest naval unit until Optics. The sooner, the better....
OTAKUjbski
TK421
Even without any Wonders at all, we still have to address our (or rather, the lack thereof) issue.
Priesthood unlocks the Temple as well as Monarchy ... 'nuf said, IMO.
Likewise what r_rolo1 said about the Trireme. If it turns out Saladin has city(ies) on some other landmass, we can eliminate his ability to reinforce and/or defend his islands via trireme -- as well as inhibit him from attacking us from the one chokepoint strait connecting our islands!!!
--------
What about GL and Heroic Epic? Parthenon and Taj Mahal?
Oracle and ToA aren't the only Marble Wonders, ya know!
Um ... I'd say in about 4 out of 5 games, the civ who builds the Oracle also builds the Colossus. Why that is likely the case is kinda obvious. In our case, the Oracle = the Colossus, IMO.
Lol ... that's basically what I was going for in my save (I ignore the Oracle in most of my games). I was going to rush GLH then spam out a few quick Settlers and Workers to grab up as much land as possible -- basic water style REX.
That being said, there's nothing stopping you from grabbing the 'best' save for that approach (probably mine) and proceeding down that path as a shadow.
I'd LOVE to see how that plays out.
(or rather, the lack thereof) issue.Priesthood unlocks the Temple as well as Monarchy ... 'nuf said, IMO.
Likewise what r_rolo1 said about the Trireme. If it turns out Saladin has city(ies) on some other landmass, we can eliminate his ability to reinforce and/or defend his islands via trireme -- as well as inhibit him from attacking us from the one chokepoint strait connecting our islands!!!
--------
What about GL and Heroic Epic? Parthenon and Taj Mahal?
Oracle and ToA aren't the only Marble Wonders, ya know!
Um ... I'd say in about 4 out of 5 games, the civ who builds the Oracle also builds the Colossus. Why that is likely the case is kinda obvious. In our case, the Oracle = the Colossus, IMO.
Lol ... that's basically what I was going for in my save (I ignore the Oracle in most of my games). I was going to rush GLH then spam out a few quick Settlers and Workers to grab up as much land as possible -- basic water style REX.
That being said, there's nothing stopping you from grabbing the 'best' save for that approach (probably mine) and proceeding down that path as a shadow.
I'd LOVE to see how that plays out.
Arguably, there are only two good sites left to be settled. I'm hesitant to even call one of them "good," but "good" is a relative term, I suppose, and relative to the rest of the land available to us, these two sites are good.
Not necessarily. It's one of the slowest growing cities. Settling it early has the advantage of starting that slow growth as early as possible. Those grasslands will primarily be cottaged, which will be great to grow alongside the slow growth of the city itself.
The Great Lighthouse is the most important wonder on this map. I don't expect to be working enough coastal tiles to get much out of the Colossus. I might build it to deny it for the same reasons I would build the Oracle; to deny it from another civ.
The best available city site is somewhere near the floodplains. I like the plains hill I label Commerce #1 in my game because it will be able to work all of those hills.
There are other placements that can possibly better maximize mid/late-game hammers, but I don't believe they're coastal.
Undoubtedly. I wouldn't risk allowing Saladin to settle on the main island though.
Triremes could be advantageous.
My only issue with forges is that we have none of the resources it increases the happiness bonus of, we have no granary resources, and we only have two harbor resources.
I know we're expansive, but I still think health will be a big issue. Food is an issue, so forges will not help much in offering the specialist slot. Most cities will be growing for a long long time. Production is an issue, so I don't know how much we'll get out of the forge's production modifier.
And I'm in no rush to settle on marble yet. One of the advantages of settling on the main island is being able to swap tiles between Berlin and Hamburg. In my game, due to my unique placement of Hamburg, this will be a riverside grassland mine (hill) and a riverside grassland cottage. Also, I don't believe Saladin will ever be able to challenge that copper, provided you don't give him a foothold on the island to settle in.
I can see where you could be confused by my game, OTAKU. I attempted to leave notes, but they're reasonably rudimentary by necessity. I provided updated numbers to Winston, and I think I'll include a screenshot from turn 80.
For reference sake, Pottery comes in on turn 81, the Lighthouse completes on turn 82 (after the noted whip on turn 81), Writing on turn 92, and the Great Lighthouse on turn 99. I won't build my first galley until turn 105, following a whip on turn 104 (whip anger from turn 81 expires on turn 105).
Turn 80 screenshot:
Spoiler :
I can assure you I don't, and I have every intention of building it. In fact, I am sufficiently confident of its power that I see little need to go chasing another three early wonders as well.
And I'm glad to see that the roster players aren't all advocating the four-wonder gambit (I believe this does qualify as a gambit, although maybe I should check with Lord Chambers
). My position really isn't a million miles away from rolo's. I'm undecided on the Oracle (and on what tech to take if I do go for it - rolo does make a strong case for MC), and the Colossus isn't so high on my list of priorities. But, who knows, I may well end up with all three.
On the other hand, I may stick with just the GLh, and look towards the Great Library or the Hanging Gardens instead, or just focus on getting those powerful national wonders (Statues, NE) up in good time.
What I won't do is to abandon generally solid play* in favour of a start totally given over to wonder production.
*stay flexible, build good cities before weak ones, focus on expansion (vertical and horizontal), keep one eye on security concerns
Nares said:
Oh, that's what I meant - he could settle the copper. That really would be a nasty situation, wouldn't it? A protective civ on a hill holding (what looks like) our only strategic resource.
Yeah, I just went back and responded to your specific idea of allowing Berlin to grab the copper.
The short answer is, I wouldn't.
The longer answer involves somehow grabbing the copper very quickly if you decide to put your second city on the marble island.
Did I really suggest that?
Or are you joining the 'make-Winston-think-he's-losing-his-mind' game?
