Monarchists' Cookbook I

[futurehermit]

Definitely play nice until we are ready. We don't want him spamming more protective units!

GLH is essential of course, but the question is the timing. If we can nail down all of GLH/ToA/Colossus/Oracle we will be in great shape. But that's a lot of priorities for a low-production capital. If we can get GLH/ToA/Oracle we should be able to take Colossus at our leisure, which is good, so it's mainly 3 wonders that are the issue. They will give us a mix of GMs/GPs. So, we certainly aren't going to hurt at all for commerce in this game and should be able to run 100% science until we are ready to war.

The question is are we better off going ToA-->GLH-->Oracle or GLH-->ToA-->Oracle (or something else)?

I definitely feel like expanding to a 2nd city before these three wonders are done is problematic.

 

[r_rolo1]

I would prefer to drop ToA and Go Oracle ( if marble ) -> TGL -> Collosus ( maybe in 2nd city ), but I'm basing in my game where I have things more directed towards that direction.....

 

[futurehermit]

I don't think it is feasible at all to get the marble hooked up before the Oracle comes online. To try and do so would also put that city in a terrible, food-poor location.

 

[siggboy]

Some games, the Colossus and Pyramids aren't built until the late first millenia A.D. Great stuff.

The Colossus is built late mainly because the AI does not go after Metal Casting early. If you slingshot it and then trade it to them you will see the Colossus earlier. So maybe the Colossus numbers are the least reliable of those for that reason (most of the other early wonders require techs that most AI civs do research early in any case).

In most of my games I take MC from the Oracle, since it's by far the most expensive tech that you can get (unless you manage a CS slingshot), and the AI never researches it early on, so you can trade it for a lot of other important technologies. I even don't research Alphabet, I just trade MC for it (plus something else) when the first AI approaches me for a tech trade.

 

[Bleys]

I really think that we can get a Settler out, dropped on the Marble, and build the Oracle in THAT city while building the ToA in the capitol. In fact, this is my plan regardless of whose save we take, heh, so if some of you want to try a "safer shot" to the middle of the fairway, that would be cool. I think thats what somoene referred to in the Bullpen thread as "some players taking more risks", because if they fail, there is likely a fall-back save that was played safer, and if it succeeds, it becomes the "Best Ball".

I am 90% sure I can pull this off from rolo's save, he has the pre-req techs for Oracle, is building a Settler now, could whip it for 2 in another few turns, and galley it over pretty quickly, and start the GLH. Whip overflow from another worker and settler speed along the GLH, and the Oracle can completed VERY fast with a single chop into it (worth what, 135 hammers with IND + Marble? Or is it 180?), Rolo also has a few forests to chop toward ToA once the GLH is built. Whip overflow is VERY efficient, especially into Wonders with an IND leader. They get the bonus before they go into the Wonder (overflow from previous build is added to current production, then modified). OTAK isnt close enough to start Oracle right away in the Marble City, nor am I. Futurehermits save could also be used, if he interupts ToA now for a settler, then whip-overflows it, and hurrys the Settler onto the Marble tile, but actually, I would consider putting both a Settler and a worker in front of the ToA, with whip overflow from both into the ToA, and settle the marble while the worker is being built, so the Workers overflow hammers also get the Marble bonus + the IND bonus.

Tough call. We will need to see Diamonds save before a decision is made, but I am leaning back on the turn length issue again, to a 4000 BC - 1000 BC turn to start, and then 1000 - 500 AD round, rather than breaking the BC into 2 chunks with no AD. 1 AD is a nice round number, but to be honest, its a "mid-session" point in most of my games. Almost always the middle of a tech or the middle of a key Wonder/plan like the Mids or MC-generate GE slingshot.

 

[vale]

There are no forests in the inner ring of the "on top of marble city" that I can see in rolo's save.

Since it's border won't be popping, a single chop towards the oracle will be worth 50 hammers total. Even if you mine that hill and work that the whole time, that is only producing 12 hammers a turn so it is going to take around 15 turns to finish the oracle out of that city assuming the chop.

That may be too long.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

They will give us a mix of GMs/GPs.

... not necessarily a bad thing considering the map.

IMO, a GM should be settled in one of our low food satellite cities -- either Marble or Copper. A GP should be settled in the Capital for now. We're likely to get another GP later if we want the Kashi Vishwanath badly enough in Mecca (assuming Saladin doesn't build it for us before then).

The question is are we better off going ToA-->GLH-->Oracle or GLH-->ToA-->Oracle (or something else)?

GLH > Oracle > ToA.

GLH is more profitable and immediate than ToA and Colossus.

GLH has no associated 'accelerant resource', so delaying it doesn't offer any production benefits (Oracle, ToA & Colossus we will shortly have the accelerants for).

Oracle all but guarantees the Colossus (if MC is taken) or the swifter demise of Saladin (if Mathematics is taken).

ToA has the best (no contest). If the Oracle didn't carry the implications I think it does, I would put ToA at #2.

I think Saladin is most likely to build the ToA ... he founded Hinduism so could already be working on it for all we know! In a worst case scenario, we simply take it from him.

I find the Colossus only falls early when the Oracle isn't built by me. The AI loves the Oracle-MC gambit, so I think that has something to do with it. If we get the Oracle, I think we can take Mathematics and expedite Construction and the capture of Mecca.

I definitely feel like expanding to a 2nd city before these three wonders are done is problematic.

If Marble is settled directly on, then I think it can certainly be done using various saves. (What Bleys said.) If my numbers are correct, we have until ~1000 BC to build the Oracle, which is 40 Turns.

 

[futurehermit]

Settling on the marble gives us a crap city though instead of a better city if we take our time slightly to the marble. Also, I think if we go GLH->Oracle->ToA we stand a pretty good chance of losing the ToA. Also, if we get the ToA first we will get our great people sooner.

I don't know, it will be interesting to see how the different saves play out.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Settling anywhere around the marble gives us a crap city ...

^^ fixed, lol.

(I think it's "six" one way and a "half dozen" the other way ... it's kinda lose-lose over there.)

lso, I think if we go GLH->Oracle->ToA we stand a pretty good chance of losing the ToA.

The same can be said for any of the various orders; the Wonder attempted last runs the risk of being lost.

So the real question isn't "which Wonder should be first" ... it's more likely "which Wonder can we most afford to lose"?

I think GLH and Oracle are more valuable. Couple that with the analysis of several other games with these settings saying ToA is generally attempted later than sooner by the AI, and it seems to me to make the most sense to attempt ToA last.

Also, if we get the ToA first we will get our great people sooner.

No argument there. But, if that means losing the Oracle or GLH, is it worth it? (I think not and therefore think it should be attempted last.)

I don't know, it will be interesting to see how the different saves play out.

Well, unfortunately, only one of the saves will be chosen, so unless we shadow on our own, we may never know if the various different approaches would all end in the same place.

So, that brings us to a decision point Bleys mentioned.

We're all kind of 'halfway there' towards our early goals -- most of them being getting the GLH, Oracle and ToA in some order or another.

Should we extend Round 1 another 40 Turns until 1000 BC? If so, do we do it now in this game? If so in this game, do we try to squeeze it in now before Round 2? (That will likely put Diamondeye at a loss this week .)

I'm eager to see if we all finish at the same place or not based on our early approaches, but I'm not certain we should make any big changes like this amidst the game (perhaps for next game, though) ... IDK.

 

[Jerrymander]

But if you get ToA first, then you pop a GP from it sooner. You can lightbulb a religious tech like Theology, which has other bonuses besides just Christianity. Namely, Theocracy.

The Oracle provides more flexibility in regards to a free tech, but I am no fan of the Oracle and I rarely build it.

 

[Winston Hughes]

I think maybe y'all are going a little wonder crazy at this point. I know we have the industrious trait, but GLh + Oracle + ToA + Colossus with a production-limited capital and a lacklustre selection of other city sites? Then attack Saladin?

Seriously, even if we managed to grab all the wonders, chances are by the time we're looking towards the Arabs they'll be too well dug in. Drop one of the wonders and we might have a chance, but it'll still need some extremely tight play to get the invasion going in good time.

I'd say the GLh is the most valuable wonder by far. Between the ToA and the Oracle, early MC looks the better bet. Trade value, triremes, cheap forges and a step on the road to Optics and Astronomy is more important than the Colossus, though. If we have time after the invasion is launched, then the metal dude could get a look in. But as much as the ToA could be very helpful, imo we just don't have enough production capacity or potential to get that as well.

 

[r_rolo1]

I do agree that trying 4 early wonders in a watery map is a little risky, but IMHO any wonder that you pull from the AI is good call per se : I've seen a SG where the wonders were putted in a innacessible barb city ( until paras ) and even Deity AI behaves pretty badly without wonders. But I digress....

I still think that Oracle-> TGL -> collosus is the best path ( not necessarily in the same city ) .... but Oracle is good only for the free MC. Like I said previously, that is what i would do in my game..... but regarding other games I would not necessarily go there: OKATU save has the TGL almost finished and Hermit has the ToA inbuilding.

About Marble spot: I think it is subpar and only justifiable for wonder boosting. I'll not settle there ,regardless of the save.... The only marble wonders boosted now are ToA and Oracle and both are not essential IMHO.

And please , do not enter in lumberjack mode We're not in a Arboria map and before Maths chops only gives the hammers equal to a worked grassland forest for 30 turns .

 

[Bleys]

I would love to play another 1000 years and see where we all are. I am still convinced we can get every wonder we want.

One advantage of these types of maps is that you CAN delay your military a bit fairly safely. Garrison units only and no immediate barracks means production can be put into other endeavors, like Wonders, Forges, and Libraries.

I will definitely try to drop a city ON the marble. I have looked at the map, and we can fit 3 fair cities on that island, one on the marble, one 3 tiles west of the marble, and 1 on the plains hill jutting out to north of the marble that will catch some chain-farmable tiles on the main island. 2 cities on the main island, 3 on Marble island, and one on Whale Island is 6. Someone mentioned that we need not be so careful about overlap, since our growth will be VERY slow, and by the time our cities start running out of tiles, we should be in a position to not worry about it. Every city of my 6 has some overlap, but nothing horrible. The city 3W of the marble becomes our GL GP farm city, and we can build a pile of Marble wonders there and use the GAs for GAs (I am an MoM-GA addict, myself, I now tech Music intentionally to pop off my first 15 turn GA in the run to Lib).

 

[futurehermit]

If I get around to it later I will post a dotmap of where I see two decent cities being placed on the southern island (I'm not convinced 3 is such a great idea with the slow growth, but I guess it could happen :shrug: ). Basically, the goal is to split the two floodplains between two cities so each has a farmed floodplains to drive growth.

I would personally prefer the ToA to the Oracle. Besides a free tech the Oracle doesn't give us anything really. The ToA's bonus to traderoutes and additional gpp should not be overlooked imho.

I would go ToA-->GLH-->Oracle. The synergy of ToA and GLH is just too good to pass up imho. Since we have copper we are pretty much assured of the colossus even without the oracle as long as we don't delay MC too much. If we play our cards right we could even bulb MC with a GM if it comes to that.

Re: Attacking Saladin: I just feel like attacking him early is a bad idea. He's protective and we need to amass galleys and axes with low-production cities? Just seems to me like an all-around bad idea.

We need to build up our economy first. Outside of our capital, our cities suck. So, that means we need to get the most out of our capital.

Our capital is not great. We certainly can't cottage spam it. We don't have the production necessary to really uber-wonderspam it a la Obsolete. BUT we have pretty good surplus food and a lot of coastal tiles. To me that means:

1) Large city after Monarchy/HR
2) ToA + GLH for traderoutes; synergizes with 1) and currency, which can be bulbed
3) Modest gpfarm, especially combined with wonders
4) Lots of coastal tiles means it will benefit nicely from Moai + Colossus + Bureaucracy

Use our capital's beaker production to drive us to the middle ages and then attack Saladin. If we can hit maces before he hits longbows attack him then. If not, we will need trebs and a mixed stack imo. I don't think we have the econ or enough cities to wait until the renaissance, so I really think getting an economic advantage in the middle ages is what we are going to need. And to do that we need our capital to drive us there.

 

[Nares]

But if you get ToA first, then you pop a GP from it sooner.

ToA has two sources of GPP. Great Merchant points from the wonder itself, and Great Prophet points from the free priest specialist.

What would you do with the Great Merchant? Settle it?

 

[Diamondeye]

Quickly looking through the thread it's nice we get that much attention, but the thread is very... chaotic. Also, I saw it mentioned that one of the neighboors are Saladin. Please don't post spoiler info before tuesday

 

[v8_mark]

For those of you who just can't get enough of these saves - going to put my thoughts/screens in a spoiler tag, along with a save at the bottom. I've played to 2000BC.

Spoiler :

My game is progressing similarly to Winston's, although I'm perhaps 3/4 turns behind him. I settled Hamburg 4 turns ago (2100BC) in the same spot as he did, on the plains hill - figuring that the free extra hammer was bigger than the potential extra production, given the lack of food.

Annoyingly, I got that forest fire random event, and no cash to sort it out, which meant effectively an extra 15 turns of whip anger (minus one forest). Ah well. So happy cap is 3 for the time being, which is enormously annoying.

Plan now is to go after the GLH immediately - think I'll pass on the ToA (and Oracle), but after that I can start spamming cities - 3 should go on the southern island, one on the little one-tile island NW of the copper, and maybe another to the eastern side of the starting island. With the GLH they'll be profitable immediately.

 

[siggboy]

Quickly looking through the thread it's nice we get that much attention, but the thread is very... chaotic. Also, I saw it mentioned that one of the neighboors are Saladin. Please don't post spoiler info before tuesday

As I understand it it was sort of agreed on that spoilers won't be used except for reports and screenshots, and that everybody who wants to submit a best-ball save should stay off the thread until the round has been played. Obviously you had no chance to know this without actually reading the thread (and some spoileresque info ;-). This shouldn't be a problem from the next round on.

Maybe the thread starter should edit the OP to reflect the change in rules regarding spoiler tags.

 

[futurehermit]

I opened my 2000BC save again last night to look at potential city sites. I include the dotmap below in spoiler tags and some thoughts about it.

Spoiler :

Ok, so I mapped the two cities I was thinking of on the bottom island and it turns out that another city settled directly on the marble would only overlap minimally, especially because of the peaks. So, I've changed my mind about settling on the marble. The question, however, is can we get a settler onto it fast enough to aid certain wonders??? Can we get to it to help us get BOTH ToA and Oracle before they are built by the AI? My gut feeling is no. Can it help us get one of them? I'm more sympathetic to that possibility, but still worry a bit.

What it will for sure help us with is GL, NE, HE, Taj, others.

 

[Winston Hughes]

I added v8mark's game to my list. Here's a link to save looking for it (if anyone actually cares, that is...):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6762753&postcount=67

Spoiler :

It's nice to see someone else had the same idea as me. It's hard to choose between them, although I think your superior development of the land (thanks, I assume, to an early worker) may make for the stronger position out of the two.

The fact that you've got Masonry helps as well. In my defence, I went for Archery before I realised that barbs weren't going to be an issue.

I'm still confused about the spoilers, btw. Since this is Diamondeye's thread, I guess I'll spoiler stuff until he says otherwise. Personally, I don't mind either way.

Oh, and thanks to an administrative cockup on the part of my would-be employers, it now seems I should be able to participate in the next round! Whether or not that's a good thing depends on just how irritating you find my contributions to be.