Monarchy - Does it need to be changed?

[bengalryan9]

It comes a tad earlier than Merchant Republic and Theocraty though - at least how I play the civics-tree most of the time. I tend to not delay my move to the next lvl government - And as @Victoria said: It HAS its benefits and niche purposes. Not everything needs to be on equal grounds here - that goes for governments too and monarchies fighting prolonged wars back in the days truly was a thing. So it sort of fits thematically too IMO.
Anybody not warmongering ever used fascism? I never did AFAIR but have used monarchy now and then...

And concerning the power of red cards: Well that depends on the situation, I'd say. Produce navals, troups, defense buildings, encampments, save money on maintenance or get utterly needed resources might come in handy, too and beat +100% adjacency for harbors not so seldeom in my book! ;p

I agree, I think it's biggest positive is that it (at least for me) comes much earlier than the other 2 governments of the same tier. Even though it's not great I almost always spend some time in it just to get the extra slots over the T1 governments. I also find that the 50% boost to influence points I get when I do switch comes at the perfect time to take advantage of them, too, as it seems to always be when I'm stumbling upon many of the city states on other islands/continents.

I think I'd rather they buff walls further (making building Med and Ren walls more desirable... they made a bit of an effort last patch, but aren't quite there yet IMO) before changing Monarchy.

 

[iammaxhailme]

In probably 95% of my games, the only red cards I use are "-x maintanence" and "+production to walls". And sometimes the general "+production to melee/anticav/ranged" so I can get some archers out to garrison. I mean, I hate warmongering so I'm not expecting to be doing that much militarism, but even in my zerg rush games, I tend to use yellow cards more

 

[iammaxhailme]

I agree, I think it's biggest positive is that it (at least for me) comes much earlier than the other 2 governments of the same tier. Even though it's not great I almost always spend some time in it just to get the extra slots over the T1 governments. I also find that the 50% boost to influence points I get when I do switch comes at the perfect time to take advantage of them, too, as it seems to always be when I'm stumbling upon many of the city states on other islands/continents.

I think I'd rather they buff walls further (making building Med and Ren walls more desirable... they made a bit of an effort last patch, but aren't quite there yet IMO) before changing Monarchy.

Compared to classical republic, monarchy has 2 more reds and 1 less yellow, so 1 more total. But I still usually stay in republic until I get theocracy or merchant republic becuase... what am I going to do with 3 red slots? Plus, classical republic's great person boost and amenities boost seems far more useful than a few extra envoy points and a bit of housing

 

[Stilgar08]

In probably 95% of my games, the only red cards I use are "-x maintanence" and "+production to walls". And sometimes the general "+production to melee/anticav/ranged" so I can get some archers out to garrison. I mean, I hate warmongering so I'm not expecting to be doing that much militarism, but even in my zerg rush games, I tend to use yellow cards more

Oh, me too. Quite often I even go economic in my wildcard slots. But that doesn't mean I couldn't find handy ways to use the red slots as well. Being no min maxer generally I build different stuff in different cities at the same time and when monarchy comes up I simply up my defences and units quite a bit or build my first encampment... Being no warmonger there's always better stuff to build so I'm lacking in that department often.

Compared to classical republic, monarchy has 2 more reds and 1 less yellow, so 1 more total. But I still usually stay in republic until I get theocracy or merchant republic becuase... what am I going to do with 3 red slots? Plus, classical republic's great person boost and amenities boost seems far more useful than a few extra envoy points and a bit of housing

The GP boost of classical Republic is indeed a reason to sit there and wait for Theo or Merchant Gov. But your districts/GP farms should be up and running by then so dependency on that boost isn't as vital anymore. And +1 housing per wall level isn't much (usually ancient walls are always enough to build) but help if peaceful expansion is more or less done (most of the time) - and fits thematically. To me monarch time is often about consolidating what you have and if I'm in the mood or have the neighbours prepare for or go to war...

 

[Sostratus]

Oh, me too. Quite often I even go economic in my wildcard slots. But that doesn't mean I couldn't find handy ways to use the red slots as well.

But this here is the exact issue.
Monarchy is locked into 3 red slots. Merchant Republic can run 3 red cards if they want. So can theocracy. So the only real advantage Monarchy has here is that it can run 4 red slots. But the value of the 4th red slot is usually quite low, since the most valuable 3 red cards have already been slotted.
But, Monarchy can only run 2 eco cards, but Theo can run 3 and Merchant Republic, 4. So unless you need 4 red slots all the time you're better off switching or skipping. Theocracy is one civic away.

I really really hate that tier 2 gov't are the only governments that don't come all at the same time - I feel it's just unbalancing. Also, merchant republic is just too good with 2 eco and 2 wildcards.

 

[Stilgar08]

But this here is the exact issue.
Monarchy is locked into 3 red slots. Merchant Republic can run 3 red cards if they want. So can theocracy. So the only real advantage Monarchy has here is that it can run 4 red slots. But the value of the 4th red slot is usually quite low, since the most valuable 3 red cards have already been slotted.
But, Monarchy can only run 2 eco cards, but Theo can run 3 and Merchant Republic, 4. So unless you need 4 red slots all the time you're better off switching or skipping. Theocracy is one civic away.

I really really hate that tier 2 gov't are the only governments that don't come all at the same time - I feel it's just unbalancing. Also, merchant republic is just too good with 2 eco and 2 wildcards.

You have less variability on monarch, right. Whatever. If it fits it fits, otherwise: Nope. You play Germany often. Why, if there are civs around that give you a wildcard slot instead of Military? There are other aspects right? (pls, don't answer - I'm just teasing you).
And I don't think it's necessary at all to have governments pop up at the same time... I wouldn't mind t2,5 our t3,5 governments as well giving you more choices and pains to decide...
Merchant Republic is strong but you could argue its because its too strong and not that monarchy is too weak... And it just gets you more gold. Again. Nothing special...

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

There needed to be Renaissance Era Government systems. While Monarchy can be accessible in Middle Ages, Merchant Republic and Theocracy appears much later (i.e. in Renaissance) while both systems sprung up in the mediterranean early in Middle Ages (or maybe by the time Roman Empire is gone). There needed to be Seven Slot systems in Renaissance, which are
- Absolute Monarchy (Military oriented, not sure which civics needed to unlock)
- Constitutional Monarchy (Available with The Enlightenment, or Rationalism)), Balanced
- The Commonwealth (Also Rationalism, Least violent) Economical oriented

 

[RealHuhn]

Early Monarchy means an early Tier 2 government building which can lead to either an early spy or (for even more synergy) to an early war with a big army bought with faith. I'd say it's the reason why Monarchy as a government needs to be less powerful than the alternatives and is just fine where it is now. As Victoria said, Logistics and pillaging cards are very useful as well. The only thing I would change are the Medieval Walls. They are still too expensive.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Early Monarchy means an early Tier 2 government building which can lead to either an early spy or (for even more synergy) to an early war with a big army bought with faith. I'd say it's the reason why Monarchy as a government needs to be less powerful than the alternatives and is just fine where it is now. As Victoria said, Logistics and pillaging cards are very useful as well. The only thing I would change are the Medieval Walls. They are still too expensive.

It should be renamed 'Classical Walls' and should be cheaper.
Graphic representations of 'Renaissance Walls' are actually ones of Medieval Era., and also needs to be cheaper.
Renaissance Walls are actually Star Forts. and should be VERY expensive (Sienna went bankrupt only because of their walls upgrading projects)

 

[bengalryan9]

Compared to classical republic, monarchy has 2 more reds and 1 less yellow, so 1 more total. But I still usually stay in republic until I get theocracy or merchant republic becuase... what am I going to do with 3 red slots? Plus, classical republic's great person boost and amenities boost seems far more useful than a few extra envoy points and a bit of housing

Monarchy has 3 more reds than classical republic does. It has 2 more slots overall than classical republic, and while I certainly value yellow cards more than red, I think trading 1 yellow for 3 reds is all right. There's definitely value in things like Logistics, Professional Army/Retinues, Retainers (I always have a garrison in my cities), Limitanei, Limes, and Equestrian Orders so I think it's a fair trade off.

Switching to monarchy also grants the eureka for castles earlier, which might not be the most useful tech in the world but I find myself without iron in a lot of games and coursers are nice to have in that case.

 

[Abaxial]

Historically, monarchy comes a lot earlier - it is a very early, primitive form of government.

 

[kaspergm]

Monarchy has 3 more reds than classical republic does. It has 2 more slots overall than classical republic, and while I certainly value yellow cards more than red, I think trading 1 yellow for 3 reds is all right. There's definitely value in things like Logistics, Professional Army/Retinues, Retainers (I always have a garrison in my cities), Limitanei, Limes, and Equestrian Orders so I think it's a fair trade off.

Switching to monarchy also grants the eureka for castles earlier, which might not be the most useful tech in the world but I find myself without iron in a lot of games and coursers are nice to have in that case.

While I don't disagree with your points, your post also strongly emphasizes the problem with Monarchy: The choice between Monarchy and Classical Republic is sort of a toss of a coin. And this is a problem, because Classical Republic is a tier 1 government while Monarchy is tier 2. Compared to Merchant Republic, Monarchy loses hands down, and same when compared to Theocracy.

Sure, there are games where I switch to Monarchy (it's the minority, but it happens occasionally), but I only do so as a stopover on my way towards either Merchant Republic or Theocracy. And I even use a mod that converts one of the red slots into a green one. So bottomline is: Yeah, I definitely think Monarchy needs tweaking. The other tier 2 governements are pretty ok - Merchant Republic may be the better after the Theocracy nerf in R&F, but I still think Theocracy has enough appeal when playing a religion to justify its existance in the current form.

When all that's said, I also agree strongly that (red) cards need a general balance overhaul. Particularly, the universal "50 % discount on upgrades" card needs to be looked into. This card was already too strong, and it only got stronger with the increase of upgrade cost. Meanwhile, not a lot of the other red cards are really appealing to run, which obviously makes these slots very low value.

 

[Kurnn]

None of the goverments needs to change. They are not supposed to be "equal".
And there are so many different playstyles now, which all goverents has something to offer.

 

[Vincent_lacruz]

None of the goverments needs to change. They are not supposed to be "equal".
And there are so many different playstyles now, which all goverents has something to offer.

They are not supposed to be equal, but they should at least be usefull... Having 3 red cards slots is too much and the housing is not really something vital.

Monarchy should at least have a boost toward walls construction (+25-50%), in addition to lime, to be able to use that bonus effectively...

 

[Kurnn]

Having 3 red cards slots can be very useful SIR.
Why should there be a boost towards building walls?

Monarchy is also a buckload better then the 3 first goverments. I understand that you dont think Monarchy is as useful as others. But there are tons of situations and playstyles, where this goverment is highly valuable.

And even if it isnt, so what? Its the first goverment you get that gives more slots for cards and more envoys.
Also, having this goverment at least once, gives you a wilcard regarding walls, that you can use in any goverment from now on.

I hear ye, you think this isnt good enough.
But the game isnt designed for everything to be equal. True, yes?

 

[kaspergm]

I hear ye, you think this isnt good enough.
But the game isnt designed for everything to be equal. True, yes?

Sorry, but I also don't agree with you on this. Game is not designed for everything to be equal, true, but like said above, game should be designed for everything to be useful under some circumstances.

While arguable there is an element of interpretation of intent in this, I think it's fair to say that Monarchy is intended to be watched as a parallel to, rather than a precursor to the other T2 Governments. Yet as argued above by for instance Sostratus, Monarchy is almost strictly worse than the other two T2 Governements, because they offer basically everything you want from Monarchy apart from the marginal case where you really need to run 4 red cards (and how often exactly is that?).

I acknowledge that you may claim that Monarchy does what it does because it's actually intended to be more like a T1.5 government, which indeed would explain the somewhat odd fact that it comes before the other T2 governments - but personally I don't believe it was intended that way.

 

[darkace77450]

I mean, the legacy bonuses for the other T2 governments aren't huge either. A little bonus gold in cities with a governor is worse than the envoy points bonus

Perhaps I'm mis-remembering things, but I thought Monarchy's legacy card was housing from walls. I'd be far more inclined to dip into it for a bit (only a bit, it's a rather bad government compared to its contemporaries) to grab the legacy card if it was increased influence.

 

[Stilgar08]

Sorry, but I also don't agree with you on this. Game is not designed for everything to be equal, true, but like said above, game should be designed for everything to be useful under some circumstances.

While arguable there is an element of interpretation of intent in this, I think it's fair to say that Monarchy is intended to be watched as a parallel to, rather than a precursor to the other T2 Governments. Yet as argued above by for instance Sostratus, Monarchy is almost strictly worse than the other two T2 Governements, because they offer basically everything you want from Monarchy apart from the marginal case where you really need to run 4 red cards (and how often exactly is that?).

I acknowledge that you may claim that Monarchy does what it does because it's actually intended to be more like a T1.5 government, which indeed would explain the somewhat odd fact that it comes before the other T2 governments - but personally I don't believe it was intended that way.

At least we can agree to disagree...
Monarchy IS useful under certain circumstances due to different reasons that have been pointed out several times in this thread. That you disagree won't make it false.

 

[Thibaulthc]

After reading all those opinions, I think that nerfing MR would be a better option than buffing Monarchy ;
I'd change a wild card slot by an economic slot

 

[Vincent_lacruz]

After reading all those opinions, I think that nerfing MR would be a better option than buffing Monarchy ;
I'd change a wild card slot by an economic slot

The "nerf" you are looking for already exist: MR arrives last in the tree. No need to reduce its efficacity.