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Mongolia

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Der_Zorn_gottes, Feb 29, 2016.

  1. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Warlord

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    If I'm reading the proposed UA correctly, the Mongols will get extra yields even when they capture a CS through the usual conquest way, right?
     
  2. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Is it really that difficult to move annexing ability to Medieval?

    This would please those warmongers that want to bully in Ancient, and also make Mongolia a terror in this time. No cooldown is needed when city states can be protected by other civs.
     
    ElliotS likes this.
  3. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I agree with this idea.
     
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    So a cooldown is gamey, but artificially limiting the UA to the 'medieval' period is...not?

    I don't like it.

    G
     
  5. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    I don't like it either... With the exception of Maya, UA's aren't era-locked like that. It's too weird...

    I still think that +2 of every yield in your capital ( :c5food:/:c5gold:/:c5production:/:c5science:/:c5culture:/:c5goldenage:/:tourism:/:c5faith:), every turn for every intimidated city State, scaling with Era, would be an interesting idea. Straightforward, and you wouldn't feel limited if you wanted to get an immediate tribute bonus.

    Maybe it's too much like Morocco though
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2018
  6. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Again, see above - it fails to capture the fact that the Mongol Empire, at heart, was a plunder-based economy. Sure it 'protected trade' for a generation or two with the Yam system, but it was ultimately a system of benign neglect mixed with military presence. In reality, the empire grew out of rapid, unstoppable conquest and intimidation.

    Nothing says rapid, unstoppable conquest like yields per turn in your capital, eh? :)

    I want the Mongols to get big boosts of power when they successfully intimidate a CS.

    G
     
    crdvis16 likes this.
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    You can get like 200 culture if you bully a cultural CS first. That's some serious snowballing. How fast can you build three spears?

    With that said, if you intimidate a mercantile CS you will probably waste most of the hammers and then you then have to wait 50 turns, during which any other warmonger can be getting fat culture and faith bonuses while you get gold instead.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2018
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    You get 250% of the bullying yields and a free city (with all buildings remaining and no unrest) for bullying with the nuMongols. Plus any unique resources around the CS, and you deny anyone else ever being able to bully that CS again (or get votes, or yields, or whatever).

    G
     
  9. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Warlord

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    What about splitting yields? Like instead of getting 250% of Tribute, you get 50 Food, Production, Culture, Science and Faith (and Tribute bonuses from Authority). That would reduce the variance and reduces the pain of "I got 200 Food and now I can't get anything else".

    Swagolo above mentioned that Ger should have no maintenance. I agree with that.
     
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    It shouldn't have maintenance, if it does that's a typo...I'll fix.

    G
     
  11. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Warlord

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    Bump
     
    pineappledan and CrazyG like this.
  12. neo_arcadia

    neo_arcadia Chieftain

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    What about cities conquered by city state? How does Mongol's UA interact with those cities?
     
  13. CppMaster

    CppMaster Chieftain

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    I think he meant Medieval era AND and eras later. Vassalage comes with Medieval era, which is kind of similar mechanic. Don't you like that too?
     
  14. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Vassalage is enabled at Medieval, which means that it doesn't feel arbitrary or as gamey imo.
    Nothing says rapid expansion like a 50 turn cooldown.

    What about this:
    "Mongol Terror: Mounted ranged units get +2 :c5moves: and ignore ZoC. +25% :c5strength: vs city state units and +50% :c5strength: against city state cities. Whenever you conquer a city state for the first time, receive 50 :c5culture:/:c5science:/:c5production:/:c5gold:/:c5food: in your capital, scaling with era, and it doesn't lose buildings or :c5citizen: population."

    The only thing you 'lose' is the ability to capture a CS through intimidation alone, but heavy tribute is already a fairly good model for that. I mean heavy tribute if often better than having the city on your own. Additionally it's kinda kept with the 'and it doesn't lose buildings or population.' clause.

    I think this is the best of both worlds and removes the cool-down naturally while reducing variance.
     
    CppMaster likes this.
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Won’t work, taking a city with a unit is automatically not a gift in netcode. Gift is required for logic here. Anyways, I prefer the UA I posted earlier.

    Also comparing to vassalage is apples and oranges. Vassalage is a political theory tied to a specific period in history, surrendering to a horde...not so much.

    G
     
  16. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    How about this?

    "Mongol Terror: Mounted ranged units get +2 :c5moves: and ignore ZoC. +25% :c5strength: vs city state units and +50% :c5strength: against city state cities. Whenever you conquer a city state for the first time, receive 50 :c5culture:/:c5science:/:c5production:/:c5gold:/:c5food: in your capital, scaling with era."

    I don't know if they even need the "keeping buildings" part. If this is too weak we could go:

    "Mongol Terror: Mounted ranged units get +2 :c5moves: and ignore ZoC. +25% :c5strength: vs city state units and +50% :c5strength: against city state cities. Whenever you conquer a city state for the first time, receive 50 :c5culture:/:c5science:/:c5production:/:c5gold:/:c5food: in your capital, scaling with era, and gain a Mongol [Embassy/Office] (+15% :c5production: Production) in the city."

    I'm pushing this a bit because the results of the poll are very one-sided. The sample size isn't huge, but it's literally unanimous so far. Want me to post the poll and some context in it's own thread for more visibility?

    Feel free to vote on the poll if you haven't.

    As far as I can tell people very much want a solution without a cooldown, even if you personally don't see it as an issue. It's your mod and call, but that's where my and some other people's opinions rest.
     
  17. Grabbl

    Grabbl Chieftain

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    I really like the Gazebo proposal of yields on annexing (and capturing, preferably) alongside with no population and building loss, that seems to fix the issue of no heavy tribute as a downside.

    And I seem to be quite lonely with that opinion, but the cooldown is fine for me. It's artificial, sure, but it's a clean solution, and the other option would be to build in some kind of "flexible" effective cooldown based on the game state somehow which would make things more complicated probably. I fear that it ends up as with the tech improvements for all tile improvements being tied to fresh-water/ non-fresh water: An idea that is good in principle but ultimately just made an easy thing more complicated without any real gain for gameplay. Furthermore, I don't like the proposal of starting in medieval (admittedly not a more complicated solution) - it's also artificial, and Mongolia is a civ that has a strong early-rush compatibility, and I'd like to keep that.
     
  18. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Chieftain

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    I'm happy with G's current proposal as well. I'm especially excited to see the new Mongol and Huns in action.
     
  19. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Except it doesn't. Even if it's good, you can't demand any heavy tribute from any other CSs for 50 turns IIRC. It's actually detrimental in some cases to have this UA.

    If you could always demand heavy tribute and every 50 turns the city state gave more yields and joined you it would be less of an issue, but this is pretty glaring.

    Also it's got extremely high variance. Tributing a culture CS gets you an absurd amount of culture that can throw you super far in the lead. Tributing a food or production CS without a wonder (because most of the overflow production is lost) isn't even close to as good, and science is in the middle. Faith might take you from last to first to found on it's own.

    The type of city state and timing of it is huge with this ability, far moreso than I'm comfortable with.
     
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  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    A majority of 4 isn’t ‘very much.’ Changing things to your idea would be a major rework of the Mongols, especially the AI. It’s just not feasible at this stage. The UA stays. If the duration of the cooldown is too long we could drop it to 25. Cooldowns for tribute are already a thing, so this is not a novel or arbitrarily gamey thing.

    G
     

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