Monty's depiction in Civ 6

[ehecatzin]

Chances are the Aztecs will be back in Civ 6, as Monty is a stapple of the series. And since we haven't seen anything in 6 this is purely speculation but it still worries me a little.

I'm hoping that this time Firaxis put some time into researching Aztec emperors, because honestly I'm sick and tired of Monty always being depicted in game as an angry downtown folkloric dancer.

By all means, make him over the top, give him anger managment issues, but make him look like an actual Aztec Emperor. At this point taking folkloric dancers as historical reference is akin to depicting Horned Vikings (all the worse when you add Apocalypto inspiration as well)

Folkloric dancer:

Spoiler :

Aztec Emperor:

Spoiler :

Most people doesn't notice I know, but once you know how the Aztec nobilty dressed, this depiction is like having Caesar dressed in renaissance carnival clothing.

So, would you like to see a diferent take on Monty? or do you think his look is also a stapple of the series that is not going to change.

 

[ldvhl]

Firaxis is learning and improving slowly. Hopefully they'll make it there someday.

 

[AriochIV]

Ed Beach specifically mentioned Montezuma in the PCGamesN article, so he's definitely in.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Firaxis is learning and improving slowly. Hopefully they'll make it there someday.

I don't think it's as much "education" as it is looking for interesting visuals for their art.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I don't think it's as much "education" as it is looking for interesting visuals for their art.

If by 'interesting' you mean Inaccurate, Inappropriate, Demeaning, Condescending, etc., etc., then they can stop looking...

 

[SammyKhalifa]

i didn't say they were right or wrong, just that that's what they were probably doing. Geez.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

And it's not as if they were basing it on nothing. Accounts and arifacts (possibly apocryphal) show him wearing similar.

http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/16445

Edit--tried finding a smaller image but instead just deleted it. You can see it in the link though.

 

[ehecatzin]

The thing is that, we don't know for sure Montezuma ever wore it, it was a gift from him to Cortez, most likely it had a ceremonial purpose (no way to know for sure) but what we know for sure is the crown the Aztec emperors wore is nothing like it:

Spoiler :

Even in they go with the Quetzal headgear (like in civ 5) even then I can give it a pass since the context is ceremonial but, why then do they feel the need to slap a freacking skull on it? (and give him Apocalypto tatoos), I'll tell you why, because that's what folkloric dancers use, precisely because "it looks cool", that's why I brought up the viking horns, they do look cool as well, but it has nothing to do with real vikings.

I think that the Firaxis art department is quite capable of creating a cool, badass Monty that is actually dressed as an actual Aztec, and not some modern flashy representation to attract tourists.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Yeah, reading the story my guess is that it was more of a ceremonial thing if it was ever worn at all. My assumption is that the artifact, like many things, had the story behind it changed as time passed.

Still, that's where they got the idea. I can understand your concern for not making it look like Mardi Gras though.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

By the way, thanks for leading me down the road to learning a bit about this artifact. Even if not genuine--or at least not what they think it is--it still has a long and pretty interesting story.

 

[Novu]

Here is a charcoal sketch of Montezuma made by the Spanish shortly before his death.

Spoiler :

Color portrait based on the above sketch. This is probably the most accurate representation of what Montezuma really looked like.

 

[ehecatzin]

Take that and give him the correct tunic design and we have an Aztec Monty. Emperors used a particular blue tunic:

Spoiler :

 

[SMcM]

If by 'interesting' you mean Inaccurate, Inappropriate, Demeaning, Condescending, etc., etc., then they can stop looking...

That tone is more than a bit unnecessary; you are just talking about a videogame ultimately.

 

[ldvhl]

That tone is more than a bit unnecessary; you are just talking about a videogame ultimately.

That's not an excuse.

 

[SMcM]

Here is a charcoal sketch of Montezuma made by the Spanish shortly before his death.

Spoiler :

Color portrait based on the above sketch. This is probably the most accurate representation of what Montezuma really looked like.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Yeah, one problem though. Those pictures are of Montezuma II. Isn't the Montezuma present throughout the civ games Montezuma I? I realise that the one in the game is based on those pictures of Montezuma II, but isn't that due to there being a lack of photos of Montezuma I?

 

[SMcM]

That's not an excuse.

I am not saying developers should be lazy, but the other comment was merely pointing out that the developers wanted the have a leader that looked visually engaging- you can agree or disagree with this design decision on the part of the developers, but I feel that it is not healthy to get too upset up about these things; the developers aren't deliberately trying to be 'condescending'. Anyway, I am not trying to be disagreeable, I just feel that it is worth keeping conversation here friendly.

 

[ehecatzin]

[/SPOILER]
Yeah, one problem though. Those pictures are of Montezuma II. Isn't the Montezuma present throughout the civ games Montezuma I? I realise that the one in the game is based on those pictures of Montezuma II, but isn't that due to there being a lack of photos of Montezuma I?

Only partially a problem. When the Aztecs got into central Mexico they were more "barbaric" as compared to the other Nahuatl peoples already settled in Mexico Valley, like for example the Acolhuas in Texcoco.But it was precisely under Moctezuma Ilhuicamina (the first Monty) that the Aztecs did everything they could to model themselves as Toltec as possible, burning old codex, rewriting their own history, forgeting about anything that was "chichimec" and embracing everything "Toltec". So the look of the following Emperors was actually set by Monty I.

So yeah, the "barbaric" look and attitude could have fitted early emperors, but not Monty I.

 

[SMcM]

Only partially a problem. When the Aztecs got into central Mexico they were more "barbaric" as compared to the other Nahuatl peoples already settled in Mexico Valley, like for example the Acolhuas in Texcoco.But it was precisely under Moctezuma Ilhuicamina (the first Monty) that the Aztecs did everything they could to model themselves as Toltec as possible, burning old codex, rewriting their own history, forgeting about anything that was "chichimec" and embracing everything "Toltec". So the look of the following Emperors was actually set by Monty I.

So yeah, the "barbaric" look and attitude could have fitted early emperors, but not Monty I.

The point I was making was that the pictures that were being displayed were not of Montezuma I, who is the Montezuma I though was being portrayed in the games. Are you saying this doesn't matter as Montezuma I would have been more like Montezuma II than he would have been like the earlier emperors, so him appearing with clothing based on that that of Montezuma II makes sense?

 

[ehecatzin]

The point I was making was that the pictures that were being displayed were not of Montezuma I, who is the Montezuma I though was being portrayed in the games. Are you saying this doesn't matter as Montezuma I would have been more like Montezuma II than he would have been like the earlier emperors, so him appearing with clothing based on that that of Montezuma II makes sense?

It would certainly be better than say this, for example:

Spoiler :

I'm saying that you've got to fill the blanks intelligently, due to the nature of prehispanic codex we know a lot about what each Aztec emperor did, and where, but descriptive details are really hard to come by. So we dont know exactly how he looked like, unlike Moctezuma II and Cuauhtemoc, which we do know due to Spanish contact.

If I had to guess I would take Moctezuma's II Spanish description and make him a more rugged battle hardened version of him.

Tho a quick search on Moctezuma Illuihcamina would yield you this:

Spoiler :

And thats nothing like any depiction of Monty in civ, ever, and thats just talking about the clothing.

Anyway, just to make myself clearer, Monty's depiction in civ is not only not close, its not even Aztec, "Aztec" folkloric dancers costumes are actually quite modern, and have got more in common with samba costumes than anything prehispanic, they are in no way a good reference. Are Spanish sanctioned codex and portraits done after the spanish conquest good? not completely but they are a better starting point, just got to do some research remove the european inspired elements and replace them with prehispanic ones and you'll get way closer and more authentic than the Monty's we've gotten so far.

So yeah, designing Monty I is a bit like solving a puzzle. Thats one of the reasons I'd love them to do other Aztec emperors that have got a clearer depiction on media, as in Nezahualcoyotl being the Philosopher poet, or Cuauhtemoc being the warrior emperor.

P.D: Paradox took that same depiction of Monty II for EU4, and it looks great, I'd love to see a civ Monty closer to that over yet another angry bombastic dude with a funny headress.

Spoiler :

 

[ToothedBomb]

I'm sure Firaxis knew what Montezuma actually looked like. They've more than likely seen those pictures while designing the previous models. They're probably aware their depiction isn't very accurate.

I get the feeling the devs are always struggling with balancing historical accuracy, game design and the players' expectations. Of course they want to depict leaders somewhat accurately, but they also want them to stand out from each other by giving them interesting looks. And well, you may be aware of the inaccuracies of his depictions in previous games, but most other people aren't. They see those depictions, and immediately recognize him as leader of the Aztecs. It's the image people are familiar with. If the "character" designs are too far removed from what players expect, it breaks their immersion. The pharaoh must wear one of those Egyptian crowns, Gandhi doesn't wear many clothes, and native Americans have feathers in their hair. Most people think that way, I suppose.

It would be cool though if they gave him a different look than what we've seen before, but I don't think it has to be 100% accurate.