More Israel Soldiers Kidnapped, Israel enters Lebanon

[Truronian]

Pals aren't really "indigenous".
Jews are!

1300 years living in a place is enough to call it your own. Anyway, Israel has been created now, so talk of relocating Jews is impractical and wrong. Whats so difficult with formimg a Palestinian state including East Jerusalem?

 

[civ2]

Truronian
Pals are not the only ones that lived there - Jews lived in Palestine/Israel ever since.
And there always was a Jewish community - which makes Jews more indigenous than Arabs who appeared there much later.
Also - any proof that these NOWADAYS Pals really lived there before 1000 years?
Provide any proof that they are DIRECT descendants of those that lived here 1000-2000 years ago.
Jews ARE the descendants of the "ancient" Jews - this is proved by the very (Jewish) definition of who's a Jew - born to a Jewess.
I don't think you can suppose that ALL nowadays Jews are "proselytes".
It would sound quite stupid.

 

[Truronian]

Truronian
Pals are not the only ones that lived there - Jews lived in Palestine/Israel ever since.
And there always was a Jewish community - which makes Jews more indigenous than Arabs who appeared there much later.
Also - any proof that these NOWADAYS Pals really lived there before 1000 years?
Provide any proof that they are DIRECT descendants of those that lived here 1000-2000 years ago.
Jews ARE the descendants of the "ancient" Jews - this is proved by the very (Jewish) definition of who's a Jew - born to a Jewess.
I don't think you can suppose that ALL nowadays Jews are "proselytes".
It would sound quite stupid.

To be honest I think its irrelevent. The palestinians have lived there for at least 1000 years. The Jews also lay claim to the land, and now live there aswell. The logical solution is to divide the land.

 

[nivi]

To be honest I think its irrelevent. The palestinians have lived there for at least 1000 years. The Jews also lay claim to the land, and now live there aswell. The logical solution is to divide the land.

Of course it is, no sane person disputes this.


The problem that many fail to realise:

The arab world doesn't want 1967 borders, or it wouldn't have started the war.
The arab world doesn't want even 1948 borders, or it wouldn't have started the war.

The arab world wants Israel and its jews GONE. Like pub owners have said many times: You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.

 

[civ2]

Truronian
WHERE is the proof that Pals lived there so long ago?
Can anyone of them prove his family tree???
Jews have such proofs as religious works written in Israel in those years etc.
What proof Arabs have?
It's obvious someone lived there - the question is WHO exactly?
Provide a proof on the Pals if you say they lived there 1000 years ago.
And prove those Arabs are the direct ancestors of Arafat or his neighbours!
We'll have what to talk about only after you do this.
Otherwise it's a baseless claim.

 

[Winner]

Winner, you remind me of those German propagandists in ww1 who were spreading rumours about belgian atrocities against woonded german soldiers passing Belgium

More trolling?

It also reminds me of the assasination of the austrian Grand Duke in Sarajevo, by a serbian 'terrorist' group. Austria did not declare war on Serbia due to that though, but due to its thirst for more land and expansion.

Please, next time think before making such ridiculous comparison. If Israel was "thirsty for more land", it would never have pulled back of the southern Lebanon. Or do you think they withdrawed because they wanted Hezbollah to shell their border towns in order to give them a pretext to invade again?

Nowhere is it written that a country can go to war with another one if a militant group inside that other country has kidnapped/killed someone.

Article 51, Charter of the United Nations

Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defense shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.

Anyway, this is not an isolated incident, it is just a continuation of a long-running campaign of terror waged by Hezbollah against Israel. You seem to be completely ignoring this fact.

The new campaigns in Lebanon will only provoke more attacks in the future, i mean how many more times do you have to see the same thing so as to finally realise that it will happen again. Pavlov's dog only needed to observe it twice

Well, the most sad thing is that you're so convinced you're right and standing on the moral highground, that you don't even notice how ridiculous your arguments became.

For you, I'll make it as simple as I can, hoping you will finally see what is obvious:

1. Attacks were carried out by the OOP against northern Israel.
2. Israel invaded Lebanon and destroyed OOP. It has kept the southern Lebanon as a buffer zone.
3. With buffer zone in place, there were no attacks on the northern Israel.
4. Israel withdrew its troops from southern Lebanon in 2000.
5. Since then, numerous attacks have been carried out against northern Israel.

Can you explain one thing to me? Why is Hezbollah still attacking Israel, when Israel pulled back from Lebanon and left it alone? Why they didn't stop their attacks, when their country was "liberated"?

 

[Winner]

How is this crystal clear? Look at this map (and the other maps as well). It's like saying I want Prague because it has beautiful music and cool building so I want it. How about I give you Schaumburg for Prague. OK? Never mind I'll just take it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/key_maps/3.stm

What, pray tell, does this map has to do with Hezbollah's attacks in northern Israel?

That is apparently a common disease among the Israel-haters: whenever you're faced with a clear and irrefutable argument proving that Israeli military action is legal and justified, you bring up a completely different issue, usually concerning the very right of Israel to exist in its internationally recognized borders.

From this day forward, I won't respond to such "arguments" and I'll save my time for people who are able to argue rationally and on track.

 

[Winner]

To you it is, but then you fail to see anything but your own side of the argument, which makes it black not white in a grey situation, unfortunately this is about as convincing as me saying that God is Christian.

If the truth isn't good enough for you, I can't serve you, sorry. What I said is a fact, you can read it on BBC, CNN, Reuters etc. It is clear, and I mean really cler, that Hezbollah attacked Israel. Do you want to dispute it, or not?

Also, as I said in one of my previous posts, every nation has a right to defend itself from an agression and this right is granted by the UN charter. Moreover, under the international law, a government is responsible for its territory. Again, this is a fact, not because I say so, but because it is a common international sense.

Therefore, if you stick to the facts, you can come only to one conclusion, which is that the State of Israel was attacked and as such, it has an inalienable right to defend itself by military means.

I can't understand how you justify actions against Palestinian refugees, you blatantly confuse the actions of minority terrorists with the right to kill innocents, this to me is pure one sided hatred.

I, on the other hand, don't see why you call them "minority terrorists", when the majority of Palestinians voted for clearly terrorist movement, which is responsible for countless suicide attempts.

Or do you want to dispute, that Hamas is responsible for suicide bombing it has taken responsibility for?

Utterly unconscienable, thank God that the thousands of Israelis who protested the action of their own forces weren't in such a mire of immorallity. As always your arguments come across as rantings which will lead anyone liberal to side against you.

That will not happen, simply because every true liberal must support Israel, because all facts lead to only one right conclusion, as I explained above.

Unfortunately, the word liberal was hijacked by a group of socialists, who are distorting the facts in order to support their warped world view.

My suggestion is you actually take note of all the posts that were about the more Palestinian links and ignore the Israeli links. I've been reading the links supplied by Civ2 you no doubt could care less about anything that disagrees with your conceit. I genuinely feel sorry for people who are this polarised, you really need to get some sort of perspective here.

I have no idea why are you connecting me with civ2. The only thing we have in common is that we support Israel in this thread.

But the most amusing thing is, that about 2 or 3 years ago, I was a staunch supporter of Palestinians and I often used similar "arguments". Then, I've studied whis problem in depth and I still do as a part of my studies at the university. I can only hope that you'll also change your mind in the future.

 

[Kyriakos]

Keep up this way of talking, Winner. In the end you will only have the occasional fellow flamer to discuss with. I wish you good luck, since i will not bother again.

 

[Winner]

Keep up this way of talking, Winner. In the end you will only have the occasional fellow flamer to discuss with. I wish you good luck, since i will not bother again.

In other words, you're not able to refute my points, formulated in a clear, simple and understandable way with very little or no flamming, bashing or whatever else.

You dissappointed me very much. I thought you're a person who can discuss things and admit defeat. Unfortunately, it appears I was wrong.

 

[Truronian]

Truronian
WHERE is the proof that Pals lived there so long ago?
Can anyone of them prove his family tree???
Jews have such proofs as religious works written in Israel in those years etc.
What proof Arabs have?
It's obvious someone lived there - the question is WHO exactly?
Provide a proof on the Pals if you say they lived there 1000 years ago.
And prove those Arabs are the direct ancestors of Arafat or his neighbours!
We'll have what to talk about only after you do this.
Otherwise it's a baseless claim.

And can you prove you are decended from those Jews who wrote the scriptures? Your "mwah, we were here first" attidute is immature and unrealistic, if its even verifiable. The fact is that Israelis and Palestinians both live there now, and are gonna have to learn to get along. This means both sides need to make concessions.

The problem that many fail to realise:

The arab world doesn't want 1967 borders, or it wouldn't have started the war.
The arab world doesn't want even 1948 borders, or it wouldn't have started the war.

The arab world wants Israel and its jews GONE. Like pub owners have said many times: You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.

That was then, this is now. Many Palestinians realise that claiming all of the region is unrealistic and unfair, as do many Israelis. It just so happens the ball is currently in Israel's court.

 

[civ2]

Truronian
I asked you to provide a proof FOR PALS - not to ask me to provide anything.
BTW I'm not Israeli (yet?) so your question is irrelevant.
But I'm absolutely sure that at least some of the Jews that lived there before 1948 WERE the descendants of those who lived there say 1000 years ago.
Any proof on Pals?

That was then, this is now. Many Palestinians realise that claiming all of the region is unrealistic and unfair, as do many Israelis.

Aha - by electing Hamas to government.

 

[Truronian]

Truronian
I asked you to provide a proof FOR PALS - not to ask me to provide anything.
BTW I'm not Israeli (yet?) so your question is irrelevant.

If you're so keen on having 'proof' why don't you present yours first?

But I'm absolutely sure that at least some of the Jews that lived there before 1948 WERE the descendants of those who lived there say 1000 years ago.
Any proof on Pals?

No, but I'm absolutely sure

Aha - by electing Hamas to government.

According tohere, only 32-33% of Palestinians support Hamas, and this is after Hamas softened their goals.

Meanwhile, 85% want a Palestinian state formed in the occupied territories of 1967.

 

[BasketCase]

Again if you were forced off land you'd owned for nearly 1700 years would you not feel a little agrieved

Seeing as how we were never blowing up British buildings with suicide belts or hijacked airplanes--I would answer that question with a:

HELL, NO!

England was our homeland. Probably for more than 1700 years. We gave up and walked away. Two hundred years later, we hold dominion over the entire planet.

There's a point where trying to hold onto something you cherish is a bad thing to do. When trying to keep that thing is getting loved ones killed, sometimes you just have to move on.