More Pantheons

[Barathor]

Removed from Workshop and Retired.

The last version of it can be downloaded here, if needed:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=21953

Note: it hasn't been updated with the new patch. It "should" work, but you'll just see multiple representation of the resources associated with Sun God and Earth Mother. Not too big of a deal, I suppose, since Oral Tradition kind of did that already.

With the latest patch, and the inclusion of the cool new pantheon beliefs, the original goal of this mod has already been fulfilled -- for all resources to gain some form of a belief bonus. Hence, I personally feel there's really no need to continue development on this version.

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More Pantheons Mod

Spoiler Spreadsheet Images :

DESCRIPTION:

This mod adds 5 brand new pantheon beliefs to the game and renames 3 of the existing ones.

Now, all luxury resources are granted some kind of bonus via a pantheon belief. Not only that, but all bonus resources are also covered as well as the early strategic resources, horse and iron (in the default game, only horse was included, but now that iron is revealed earlier and easier, it deserves inclusion.)

Also, when possible, I tried to differentiate the combinations of yield bonuses while still maintaining some flavorful representation of the belief. I also tried to represent and group each resource with flavorful and accurate names for each belief. If anybody has any other suggestions, please share them, along with your reasoning!


FEATURES:

• New - Purification Rituals: +2 Faith from Salt and Incense
  
  Both of these were historically used for many forms of purification rituals and warding away evil spirits. Also, dyes have replaced incense for Goddess of Festivals.
  
  
• New - Religious Holidays: +1 Culture and +1 Food from Sugar and Spices
  
  A great majority of the creation, purchasing, and consumption of sweets, baked goods, and other desserts are around and during the holidays where we all celebrate and indulge with each other.
  
  
• New - Sacred Groves: +1 Faith and +1 Food from Citrus and +1 Faith from Banana
  
  Not much to this one. Resources with groves of trees. They’re sacred. For better balance, since banana is a bonus luxury, it only receives a single yield bonus.
  
  
• New - Ceremonial Robes: +1 Faith and +1 Culture from Silk and Cotton
  
  Again, not much to this one. These represent the materials used for the making of sacred garments. Furs could even be lumped here too to represent other cultures, even dyes, but I’ve chosen to only include all resource types once among the beliefs.
  
  
• New - God of Fire: +1 Culture and +1 Production from Copper and Iron
  
  This one is one of my favorites! Historically, this represents Hephaestus, the blacksmith of the gods, and the god of fire, volcanoes, metalworking, craftsman, and such. (Because of this, I renamed the existing belief, God of Craftsman, to Devotion to the Gods) I personally thought craftsman sounded too much like carpentry and other things, and not metalworking. Plus, Fire is nice and simple, and sounds much cooler. Also, iron is now revealed earlier and more easily through teching, so I thought it deserved a place within the beliefs. It pairs well with copper, which represents classical copper and bronze working.
  
  
• Updated - Goddess of the Harvest: +1 Food from Wheat and +10 percent Faster Growth Rate
  
  In the default game, this was Fertility Rites. In ancient Greece, fertility rites are associated with Demeter, the goddess of the harvest and fertility. Though, she’s mostly known simply as the goddess of the harvest. The reason I updated the title was because I was looking for a place to put wheat. When I looked up information on fertility rites, and the goddess of the harvest showed up - bingo! I initially briefly planned to include wheat with God of the Open Sky, but it would just be too powerful, as the belief already includes two types of bonus resources, along with a strategic resource found throughout the map; a third bonus resource would’ve been way too much. I also believe Goddess of the Harvest still remains fairly balanced since the wheat resource is placed on plains tiles much less frequently and is spaced out more with higher ripple values than usual. Within desert, wheat is a little more frequent and can clump closer, but that’s good since deserts areas have very low food.
  
  
• Updated - God of the Sea: +1 Production from Fish, Crab, and Whales
  
  In the default game, this was simply applied to all fishing boats, so it included pearls. When everything was done, I noticed that the only resource which was receiving double representation was pearls, so it was an easy fix. Also, balance-wise, it was an easy fix since it doesn’t hurt the belief much. Fish are still very plentiful and found throughout all coasts, having whales and crab on top is just extra gravy. Perhaps, it actually needed to be cut back a bit with the removal of pearls!
  
  
• Updated - God of Festivals: +2 Culture from Wine and Dyes
  
  This was formerly Goddess of Festivals. I updated it so that it’s a little more historically accurate. It was probably intentionally fudged to make an even 4 Gods and 4 Goddesses within the default game. Anyway, this represents Dionysus, the ancient Greek god of wine, festivals, merry making, theatre, and such. I removed incense since I felt it was more fitting alongside salt in Purification Rituals, and replaced it with Dyes. When I think of festivals, I envision lots of different vibrant colors and I felt dyes fit here nicely. Also, to differentiate the bonus yields, I decided to take advantage of this belief’s flavor and changed it to +2 culture instead of +1 culture / + 1 faith, which could be applied elsewhere.
  
  
• Updated - Tears of the Gods: +1 Faith and +1 Gold from Gems and Pearls
  
  In the default game, this belief granted +2 faith from each luxury. I changed it to differentiate the yield bonuses more.
  
  
• Updated - Stone Circles: +1 Faith and +1 Production from Quarries
  
  In the default game, this belief granted +2 faith from each quarry. I changed it to differentiate the yield bonuses more.
  
  
• Updated - Religious Idols: +1 Culture and +1 Gold from Silver and Gold
  
  In the default game, this belief granted +1 faith and +1 culture from each luxury. I changed it to differentiate the yield bonuses more.
  
  
• Renamed - Devotion to the Gods: +1 Production in cities with a population of 3+.
  
  This was formerly God of Craftsman, but it conflicts with the new God of Fire. I also didn’t want to remove this belief, as it caters nicely to wide empires and fast expansion. I was tossing around a lot of different names. Originally, I wanted to call this Divine Inspiration, but I realized that already exists in the game! I had other ones like Virtuous Diligence and Zealous Labor. I initially called it Religious Zeal, but upon looking up information for it to double check things, that term usually applies to zealotry and something different from what I wanted to represent. Plus, a Religious Fervor already exists too.

Also, coming soon, is a More Pantheons Addon to "More Luxuries" with similar beliefs, plus a couple more!

 

[Galgus]

Looks like a great mod, though to nitpick I'm a bit concerned that the Wheat belief would trump the Hunt one, though I love the flavor of the change.

I may just be overestimating how often Wheat spawns relative to the four resources the Hunt belief uses.


I don't view the Devotion belief to be very useful, but that may be my preference as a tall player.

The Fire belief for Copper/ Iron is very cool, but would a civ ever have enough of those tiles to get a comparable benefit from it?

I think the Sacred Groves belief would be balanced with a bonus on Bananas, considering that it would be competing with Sacred Path given where Citrus and Bananas spawn.


All that said, this is going to be a must-have mod for me.

Its kind of silly that they didn't tie every resource to a belief in the first place.

 

[lockstep]

It seems you designed the +2 yield bonuses so that at least one item must be either Faith or Culture (no double Food, Production, or Gold). If you want to diversify further, there are still two unused combos (+1 Production/+1 Culture; +1 Gold/+1 Culture). Also, two +2 bonuses are used twice (+2 Faith; +1 Faith/+1 Culture). So one could apply the following changes:

Stone Circles: +1 Production/+1 Faith
God of Fire: +1 Production/+1 Culture
Religious Idols: +1 Gold/+1 Culture

(I didn't change Stone Circles to 1+ Production/+1 Culture because I wanted to leave at least one yield bonus of existing beliefs untouched.)

Looking foward to the Pantheons/Luxuries Addon!

 

[Barathor]

lockstep, once again, some great feedback.

I actually have the production/culture (Goddess of Rejuvenation) and gold/culture (Splendor of the Gods) covered in the initial addon mod I was creating.

I overlooked differentiating them for the default game's list. Your suggestions are solid, and probably the route I would've taken if I noticed this! I'll include them in the next update.

 

[lockstep]

Glad you like it.

Regarding the upcoming addon that supposedly features pantheon beliefs for the eight new luxury resources: Perhaps some of the existing/already added Pantheon beliefs can encompass a third luxury, and so you have to create another set of new beliefs only where thematically compelling.

BTW, up to now you have really succeeded in creating flavorful names!

 

[Barathor]

Okay, the mod was updated!

New chart:

 

[Barathor]

Glad you like it.

Regarding the upcoming addon that supposedly features pantheon beliefs for the eight new luxury resources: Perhaps some of the existing/already added Pantheon beliefs can encompass a third luxury, and so you have to create another set of new beliefs only where thematically compelling.

BTW, up to now you have really succeeded in creating flavorful names!

Here's a preview of the addon for More Luxuries, it may still need more polishing:

Also, I figured a third luxury type for many of them wouldn't be too much since the pool of luxuries has been increased by 40% is much more diluted.

The ones with double representation are:

Copper
Furs
Ivory
Pearls
Cocoa
Olives

These resource types have a nicely diverse set of terrain requirements: primary hills, primary coast, primary jungle, primary forest, or primary plains.

Theodora can create some nice combos with these.

 

[lockstep]

I'd maintain as much consistency as possible between the basic version and the "more luxuries" addon. Therefore, I suggest the following:

- Apply the changes in v 110 of the basic version to Stone Circles and God of Fire also to the addon.
- Religious Idols in the addon is effectively a different belief than in the standard version (different bonus, aplies to different luxuries), whereas the standard version is "reborn" in Splendor of the God. The addon names seem fitting. So why not rename "Religious Idols" to "Splendor of the Gods" *in the basic version*?

The assignment of the new luxuries to beliefs seems solid.

 

[Galgus]

All the names are very fitting, though I agree with lockstep that it may be best to keep consistency between the mods.

 

[cleaner]

I already started a game with the first version of the mod. Is it possible to update it and continue with the new version?

 

[GutFeeling]

Very flavorful names. Great work on that front. Both versions of the mod seem like very thoughtful updates. I haven't played with this mod yet so I can't compare how it feels -- actually I haven't played much Civ at all after the semester started -- but I'm personally sad to see +2 faith go away! I liked that boost. When I've played I always felt like faith came so slowly, I jumped at the chance to get a boost that felt bigger. I have no idea what the balance of this would be like -- what about a belief that added +1 faith in every city that reached a certain population? For the faith-hoarders.

 

[lockstep]

I'm personally sad to see +2 faith go away! I liked that boost.

The new "Purification Rituals" belief grants +2 faith from Salt and Incense.

 

[GutFeeling]

The new "Purification Rituals" belief grants +2 faith from Salt and Incense.

Nevermind then, I wasn't reading closely enough.

 

[Gilgamesch]

Nice work you are doing.
Created a tons of beliefs for CCTP so if you need any help let me now.

 

[Barathor]

Okay, thanks!

 

[Barathor]

Does anybody have any feedback they'd like to share on Goddess of the Harvest?

Do you believe it's "fairly" balanced still and not overpowered?

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My initial thoughts were that the food bonus from wheat would help support the belief early in the game when growth rates are small to begin with -- gaining 10% of that small number becomes even smaller; even relative to the food stores required to increase population +1 early in the game.

Then, later on, growth rates can be so high and the amount of food storage to increase high population cities is also very high, that I thought the bonus food from wheat would become relatively smaller and less of an impact on things.

Also, wheat tends not to cluster too often and isn't placed that frequently on plains, where it's found. On desert, it can cluster a little more, and is found a bit more frequently, but those areas are already lower on food. So, if a city even gets to settle near wheat, it'll most often be able to work 1, sometimes 2, of them. If near desert, it can be a little easier to have access to 2 or 3.

The exception are start locations, where during normalization methods, additional wheat resources can be forced onto the map with disregard for the surrounding tiles and impact values, in order to buff the food yields of the start area. Then, you can often see more wheat tiles than normal if you're starting in the plains or other lower food areas which can allow wheat to be placed.

The high wheat areas could be borderline overpowered, but I think that can be said for a lot of the beliefs, and other things in the game. A lot of things have extremes. For example, a city in the tundra with furs as a regional luxury and Goddess of the Hunt, could gain a really significant amount of food from the luxuries and all the deer bonuses usually applied there. That, and possibly, high food fish bonuses in the water, since coastal cities are a little more common in the tundra too. Or, you could just be on the edge of the tundra to grab those resources and the rest of your workable tiles are fertile grass/plains.

Also, in the Workshop, others have brought up scenarios including Hanging Gardens, Temple of Artemis, shuttling food to a city via trade routes, the Tradition tree, etc. I'm aware of those things, but I see those as constants, and things available whether or not wheat receives a bonus. The variable here is the inclusion of a +1 food bonus to wheat tiles and its impact; comparing that to data where it isn't present. Does it push the original belief too far, especially under common circumstances?

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If it is a bit too much, possible solutions could be:

1) Lower the % growth boost.

Though, I'm not sure that I'd really like to touch that as it would affect the use of the ability for tall empires without wheat. Also, aesthetically, I dislike "ugly" numbers and much prefer whole numbers or multiples of 5 (or a nice multiple within the context of the item).

2) Separate the abilities into two different ones. One could be Goddess of Fertility (or something based around fertility) or God of Medicine. The other would be Goddess of the Harvest, even though the Fertility and Harvest are somewhat similar.

For Goddess of the Harvest, since it'll be applied to a single resource, perhaps the bonus could be 2 food?

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Also, looking back #1, and keeping it together as one ability, what if the boost was lowered down to only 5% and the food bonus to wheat becomes 2 food? Again, this may hurt tall empire strategies without access to wheat, but now that I'm thinking about it again, I did introduce a couple more beliefs which grant a food yield boost already.

This would shift the focus a bit more towards the wheat bonus with less on the growth boost for every city in your empire. But then, would the % boost be significant enough to keep on the ability anyway? Also, is 2 food applied to wheat already more than enough?

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As you can see through all this babbling, things are up in the air and I'm undecided. Those are just some of my thoughts.

 

[Galgus]

It seems like an odd and unclear decision to choose between a belief with one with a % bonus unless that % is small enough to be negligable.

Players in some scenarios could be confused on whether goddess of the Hunt would help them grow their population more in the long-term than god of the Harvest, since it is hard to compare a flat yield with a percent bonus.


I'm not sure this would make enough sense, but maybe god of the Harvest could also give +1 to sources of Bananas to make it less reliant on a % bonus.

Would it be too complicated or just superfluous to make it a larger % bonus, but only apply to Golden Ages?

Such a change would add in a game-play decision for players so that they wouldn't feel that they always needed to grab the % bonus to play tall.

(Though it would feel a bit mandatory for players wanting high excess happiness.)


Is the logic behind bonus resource Pantheon yields being lower because they are supposed to be found more commonly than Luxury resources?

If so, is that still true in this mod?


Just throwing ideas and concerns around.

 

[kaspergm]

Hmm, really like the Ceremonial Robes one, I think I'm going to borrow that one for my own mod if that's ok, I always seem to get a Cotton start which leaves me feeling somewhat robbed!

 

[Barathor]

Hmm, really like the Ceremonial Robes one, I think I'm going to borrow that one for my own mod if that's ok, I always seem to get a Cotton start which leaves me feeling somewhat robbed!

Sure, no problem.

I'm not sure this would make enough sense, but maybe god of the Harvest could also give +1 food to sources of Bananas to make it less reliant on a % bonus.

I think that would conflict, flavor-wise, with the belief as it pertains more to grains. Also, then Sacred Groves would be left without a secondary resource, and would need to be changed; perhaps even the title too if it was just citrus alone because then it becomes too specific (Forbidden Fruit, haha).

Would it be too complicated or just superfluous to make it a larger % bonus, but only apply to Golden Ages?

I don't think I'd like to go in that direction for this. Maybe if this was something like, God of Knowledge/Music/Art (Apollo!), it would tie in more nicely with an association to golden ages and some boost during them.

Is the logic behind bonus resource Pantheon yields being lower because they are supposed to be found more commonly than Luxury resources?

If so, is that still true in this mod?

Ooh, am I about to fall into a trap? haha... Yeah, that's what I tried to do and recognize. That's also why I added a slight bit of color to the resource cells in the spreadsheet to make it easier to recognize the different types. A strong example of this is Sacred Groves, where the banana only receives half the bonus since it can be more numerous and is found throughout the map's equatorial area.

Plus, in the jungle, chances are very likely that you're going to have banana nearby if you already have citrus, so the belief is even slightly stronger than others.

But, hey, one could also look at jungle areas as less ideal than some other areas found on the map, regarding improving them and the additional amount of time to clear them for things. They're weaker early on until you can start gaining science from them. So, maybe that makes up for it. Also, larger marshes are prevalent in jungle areas too, due to the amount of grass surrounding jungle.

One of them that I'm watching is God of Fire. If it proves to be too much I may drop the iron bonus to a single faith. I just have to observe some more maps and see how much and often iron may cluster.

 

[Barathor]

I also have another idea that I'll throw out here, and see what you guys think.

Update:

Ancestor Worship: +1 Faith from Shrines

New:

Whispers of the Muses: +1 Culture from Libraries

A muse may have whispered to me while I was looking up some info on Apollo, haha. (older Magic the Gathering fans may also recognize the title) Apollo is partly known as the patron god of poetry and literature, and is the leader of the nine muses, who are the goddesses of literature, science, and art and inspire mortals.

I thought it very simple and fitting to represent all those by adding a culture yield to libraries (The writer's guild just comes slightly too late). I didn't want to go too high on a per-city bonus, especially culture, as it would easily combat early expansion policy cost rises. Even at one yield, though, I think it's nice for wide empire strategies, similar to the old Ancestor Worship. And, usually, you build libraries everywhere anyway.

Then, Ancestor Worship can be changed to a faith bonus (which in a way, seems more fitting). A faith-per-city bonus doesn't exist within the existing beliefs. This would add that and be a strong belief for wide religious empires, or civs that just want to accumulate faith and don't have any faith bonus luxury types nearby, natural wonders, etc. Or, if the belief they needed was already taken by another.

I don't know, what do you guys think? Is it balanced enough? Does it make sense?

EDIT: Actually, perhaps Goddesses of Inspiration would be more appropriate and generic, instead of being too specific.