more religions?

[VGL]

The title says it all.I think we need a Islam split and ancient religions and Judaism

 

[Shadow Merc]

From past discussions, I think the consensus was that Judaism would be a minor religion if it came back and Islam would stay whole, but the split could be represented by either wonders or some diplomatic malus (the only civ in the mod who would be following Shia Islam is Iran, unless we want to model the Shia Fatimid Caliphate as well).

But since we're on the topic, I kinda feel that Zoroastrianism should be demoted to a minor religion. Sure, it's great to represent ancient Persia and it's a nice buffer to keep the eastern religions from spreading to Europe, but it gets eradicated by Islam in 3000 BC and is always confined to Shiraz in 600 and 1700, so it feels like a waste of a major religion slot.

 

[VGL]

Well,If someone makes a baylyon respawn,then they can be Shia.and I will refuse to play if they demote Zoroastrianism to a minor religion

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

Raight auun brother! Zoroastrianism should get the Shanahmeh wonder from SoI

 

[Sanguivorant]

The thing is that Sunni and Shi'a Islam are just two different doctrines of the same religion.

There is not enough difference between the two to make it comparable to the split between Catholicism and Protestantism for example. A major war did not occur between Sunni and Shi'a of the scale that happened between the two Christian denominations.

Most conflict between the two in the past can be accredited to political issues between kingdoms/sultanates. This is best represented by diplomatic modifiers between Iran and other Muslim nations.

Don't let the current conflict in Iraq confuse you. This ISIS movement hold similar, if not identical ideas to the Kharijites, where they believe that accusing other Muslims of being disbelievers is okay and that any sinner should be put to death, regardless of their sin or origin or even awareness of the religion. Ironically, the Kharijites originated in South Iraq.

So anyhow, please do not have the idea that there is a difference between the two.

 

[VGL]

Actually, there is differences between shia and sunni.I'm surprised you do not know that considering you're interested in Islam.the big difference is Imamas.realy holy people that follow Muhammad and have abilities that normall people do not have.Sunnis and Shia's say different things about it.Sunnis say that immams must be selected by the people while shia's believe that is picked and sended by god and not picked by the people.diffrent sects of Shia's believe that there is between 12 till 14 immam till I know.I do not know how many Sunnis have.and the reason that there wasn't any war between them was that there was only one Islamic nation at a time and the only country that supported shia was fatamids before 16th century.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

I'm not Muslim but I've lived in a few muslim countries and whateveryou may think, people don't see the differences as minor.
It's not just a matter of succesion, the whole world outlook is radically different between the two.
But anyway I think it's best represented as a mechanic..

 

[VGL]

Were do you live?

 

[Sanguivorant]

Actually, there is differences between shia and sunni.I'm surprised you do not know that considering you're interested in Islam.the big difference is Imamas.realy holy people that follow Muhammad and have abilities that normall people do not have.Sunnis and Shia's say different things about it.Sunnis say that immams must be selected by the people while shia's believe that is picked and sended by god and not picked by the people.diffrent sects of Shia's believe that there is between 12 till 14 immam till I know.I do not know how many Sunnis have.and the reason that there wasn't any war between them was that there was only one Islamic nation at a time and the only country that supported shia was fatamids before 16th century.

Right, the main difference is the power structure.

But other than that, we both still believe in one God and the Last Day, and that Muhammad was a messenger.

 

[ezzlar]

Zoroastrianism and judaism as minor religions. Make some wonders for them so they arent just persecutor items.

Hellenism as a major religion with the classical wonders. Christianity replaces it like the mechanism in RFCCW.

Islam fits better as one religion in the scope of this mod.

 

[Shadow Merc]

Zoroastrianism and judaism as minor religions. Make some wonders for them so they arent just persecutor items.

Hellenism as a major religion with the classical wonders. Christianity replaces it like the mechanism in RFCCW.

Islam fits better as one religion in the scope of this mod.

Hellenism and the other polytheistic religions of mesopotamia and the mediterranean are already represented by Pantheon, and I can't see Hellenism being major since, whereas Zoroastrianism is still around today, Hellenism is more or less dead and will be wiped out by Christianity.

 

[ezzlar]

I have heard the pantheon argument a couple of times. It still enables China to build the Pyramids. So, not good enough.

But zoro as major religion has always been odd.

 

[baseballpie]

It still enables China to build the Pyramids

The Egyptian entity that built the Pyramids was not Hellenist, though. It was still worshiping the Egyptian pantheon, not the Greek.

 

[ezzlar]

True. Still not comfortable that zoro gets a full slot...

Otoh, Pyramids could be left out. Egyptians usually still build it first.

 

[Theodorick]

VGL, I am curious on why you never put a space after your punctuation? I find it distracting and sloppy, but I am nitpicky about things like that.

As for splitting Islam, I wonder how much of an impact it would have on the game. Really only two civs might be Shia, those being Egypt (It was at a few points even if it's Sunni now) and Persia, without player involvement. That's nowhere near as varied as the Christian splits, especially Protestantism and Christianity. Orthodox sometimes has only 2, but it regularly goes over that with Poland, Greece, and occasionally the Ottomons and Vikings. Even splitting Buddhism would involve more civilizations.

 

[JiimBV]

Zoroastrianism makes sense in the global perspective of the mod. 20% of the world's population was controlled by a Zoroastrian nation, and if the player (or AI) can survive and maintain control of the Middle East/India, Zoroastrianism is more than sensible as a major religion.

 

[Shadow Merc]

I'm not opposed to Zoro staying as a major religion, but my main issue is that for the latter half of the game it only stays in one city due to the Arab and Seljuks' powers of removing anything that isn't their state religion. Even Taoism, which no one adopts except for rare occasions with China, is in more cities than Zoroastrianism in the middle ages onward. Either Arabia and the Seljuks shouldn't automatically remove religions with city conquest and just handle it via persecution or Zoroastrianism should be able to passively spread to other cities.

 

[Theodorick]

I'm not opposed to Zoro staying as a major religion, but my main issue is that for the latter half of the game it only stays in one city due to the Arab and Seljuks' powers of removing anything that isn't their state religion. Even Taoism, which no one adopts except for rare occasions with China, is in more cities than Zoroastrianism in the middle ages onward. Either Arabia and the Seljuks shouldn't automatically remove religions with city conquest and just handle it via persecution or Zoroastrianism should be able to passively spread to other cities.

Historically that's what happened so I assume that is why Leoreth made it that way. Zoroastrianism basically vanished save for a few scattered remnants that still practiced it. That's why there's only about 2 million practicing it today. The religion was historically wiped out.

You can change history with Persia if you'd like, or even India, and fight for your religion and spread it all over the world. But in AI terms that is simply not going to happen, since it's not supposed to happen.

 

[Sanguivorant]

Is Judaism was a minor religion, how would it affect the game? What new content would that bring?

 

[VGL]

Right, the main difference is the power structure.

But other than that, we both still believe in one God and the Last Day, and that Muhammad was a messenger.

Well,Protestants,Catholic and Orthodox all believe in Jesus,the seven sins and virtues,one god and last day.so they should be represented as single religion. and only differences in wonders and relations. And you can make shia the dominate religion.that's what made DOC and many other games and mods great is the alternate history.