more religions?

[Leoreth]

So what exactly is the problem with how it is now?

 

[Shadow Merc]

Well, now that we've fleshed everything out, my issue i think is more with Arab's UP than with Zoro being major/minor.

I don't think the Arabs should be removing religion from cities on conquest, since as history shows they didn't kill nonbelievers but rather enforced a tax unless they converted, so they convinced people to convert on their own. And they didn't wipe out whole religious populations either, since there are still Chrisitans, Jews, Zoroastrians, and other minor religious groups throughout the Middle East.

It'd be more appropriate if the AI would just use persecution to get rid of those groups over time if they really needed to, but Arabia's UP should be just limited to spreading Islam to the city and then founding a temple.

 

[citis]

Zoroastrianism works well. The only fix I can see is that it should spread in central Asia or Manichaeism should spread in central Asia instead of zoroastrianism if added. (In 600AD scenario Merv, Samarquand and kasgar should be manichaean or if Manichaeism is absent zoroastrian).

I agree about a weakened arabian UP. Spread of state religion in conquered cities is enough. Arabia should be encouraged to use the persecution project to remove other religions. I remember the AI knows to use it very well, so Arabia can transform its multireligional empire into solely islamic gradually and historically well. This UP was added by Rhye, because there wasn't any procecution project in his mod.

The removal power can be kept for seljuks, whose role is transforming middle east in sole Islam.

 

[Fresol]

The persecution project is very inconvenient to use. It can only be built in one city at a time, takes a lot of hammers, and totally screws the city the turn it's finished(shrinks cultural border and you may lose connection to resources as well). I can't think of a reason to put it into real use. Inquisition units are way better.

 

[Sanguivorant]

I've never been in a situation where having a non-state religion was worse than the effects of persecution.

 

[Fresol]

Inquisitors should be cheap(same as missionary), and shouldn't cause city revolt. Instead it should cause a small happiness penalty(1 or 2) which fades over time. And the ability to produce and use them should be limited to Organized Religion and/or Fanaticism and/or Theocracy. Divine Right is required as well.

 

[Theodorick]

Inquisitors should be cheap(same as missionary), and shouldn't cause city revolt. Instead it should cause a small happiness penalty(1 or 2) which fades over time. And the ability to produce and use them should be limited to Organized Religion and/or Fanaticism and/or Theocracy. Divine Right is required as well.

That's how it is in SoI, and it works out just fine. I never liked the system in DoC.

 

[Fresol]

Then Arabia could have half cost inquisitor as part of their UP, instead of removing nonstate religion on city acquisition.

 

[Theodorick]

Then Arabia could have half cost inquisitor as part of their UP, instead of removing nonstate religion on city acquisition.

One large reason other religions fell out of favor, is because many Islamic nations, such as the Abbasids, allowed other religions to exist in most cases, but put strict limitations on those who practiced other religions than Islam, as well as making them pay higher taxes.

They were called 'People of the Book', which meant they were free to practice their religion. Religions in this exemption where Christianity, Judaism, Sabianism, and Zoroastrianism. But they were not exempt from restrictions on everything from where they could go and what they could do for a living in the extreme end of things. They also had to pay a poll tax known as Jizya, which was sometimes very high in times of need. It seriously went as high as 80% of assets in a few cases.

Due to the tax and restrictions, there was a steady conversion to Islam. Also some people saw Islam as the new true faith due to the Muslim conquests being so spectacular. It really did look like they were being led by God to some people. Later on the pressure of the Islamic culture, and the great gains and science, art, and technology, made Islam look even more attractive.

The conversions happened steadily in some places. Zoroastrianism didn't just collapse when Persia was taken. It just slowly faded out in favor of Islam.

There were of course a few inquisition like activities, but it wasn't the dominant drive behind the growth of Islam.

Right now Leoreth presents this by having the religions simply vanish, when if he were to try and do it historically the religions should slowly fade away. If you truly want to simulate the way Islam spreads early on, then a civic of some sort should be implemented to show the Jizya tax, which would generate extra income per other religions in a city, yet cause unhappiness based on the religion there, while slowly fading out other religions. But that is probably not doable. Even SoI had nothing related to this and just stuck to inquisitions.

Historically for Islam getting rid of other religions with inquisitions simply doesn't fit.

 

[Leoreth]

Currently no general mechanic for disappearing religions exists at all, though.

 

[VGL]

Well,the Arabs didn't accept all kinds of Islam. They prosecuted all other Islam types (mostly Shia's)so if you converted from Christian to Shia,then you would get killed.so they tolerated heathens but not heretics

 

[Theodorick]

Currently no general mechanic for disappearing religions exists at all, though.

Yeah, just having religions vanish is kind of the best way to go if no mechanic letting them slowly disappear exists.

Of course you could add this later on...

 

[Leoreth]

Well,the Arabs didn't accept all kinds of Islam. They prosecuted all other Islam types (mostly Shia's)so if you converted from Christian to Shia,then you would get killed.so they tolerated heathens but not heretics

That is undifferentiated to the point of being wrong.

Most obviously, the Egyptian Fatimids were both Arab and Shi'a.

Of course you could add this later on...

Why do you think I don't engage in discussions about more immediate changes?

 

[Theodorick]

Aren't you thinking of making a huge mechanic change to the mod as a whole? This could be put into the to do list. Though I am not sure how significant it would be. It might even cause problems, with the player or AI.

 

[VGL]

That is undifferentiated to the point of being wrong.

Most obviously, the Egyptian Fatimids were both Arab and Shi'a.

i meant Abbasid and not Egyptians

 

[Leoreth]

Aren't you thinking of making a huge mechanic change to the mod as a whole? This could be put into the to do list.

The to do pile doesn't stop from keep getting taller.

i meant Abbasid and not Egyptians

Who are just one Arab dynasty. And their prosecution of Shi'ites had a very obvious political dimension because the theological differences directly threatened the legitimacy of the caliphate.

 

[VGL]

so they prosecuted them and didn't accept them as a branch of islam

 

[Leoreth]

So your original point was narrowed down to a very circumstantial example that does not adequately describe the big picture.

 

[VGL]

Umm...yeah?

 

[Leoreth]

This is a game about the big picture.