More Terrains / Terrain Features / Bonus Ressources [IMPLEMENTED]

[raystuttgart]

Short Info:

As side effect of this discussion (suggested by @devolution and also already requested a couple of times),
it is now possible to colour "Wool Cloth" and thus produce "Coloured Cloth" as well.

So to summarize:

• (Cotton) Cloth + Indio = Coloured Cloth (old)
  
• Wool Cloth + Indigo = Coloured Cloth (added / new)

There has no new Yield, no new Building and no new Expert been added.
It is just 2 Professions available in the Dyer's House: Cloth Dyer / Wool Dyer

The Dyer thus simply gets a bit more versatile.
(And it is possible to start a "Coloured Cloth" industry even if you do not have "Cotton" to produce "Cloth".)

Spoiler :

 

[raystuttgart]

The the discussion might have been a bit confusing.
(And a lot of it ran in our internal modders forum in parallel.)

So to make it easier, I repeat the summary here:

• We want to introduce Marsh (Low value "Grasland" that however gives "Herbs" on Hills)
  
• We want to introduce Plains (Food and Breeding Paradise, with less Cash Yields)
  
• We will not have more Yields (we will just rebalance "Barley" by removing it from Grasland and Prarie but putting it on Plains)
• We will thus also not have more Experts, Buildings, ...
  
• We will rename "Coca" to "Herbs" to use it for "Health" (and "Coca Planter" to "Herb Collector")
  
• By doing so we get rid of balancing issues of "Coca" / "Coca Planter" (low value because not common enough and no strategic meaning)
• We regain a bit of nostalgica from Original Colonization by finally bringing all its Terrains back to Civ4Col by WTP !
• We get more eyecandy by more beautiful Terrains from Schmiddie
• Draining Feature finally gets more useful (becaue we can now Drain "Marsh" and "Swamp")
  
• I will have to redo the Maps anyways for "Large Rivers"
• We will also have to adjust the MapScripts anyways

So it comes down to these aspects:

• Nostalgica and atmospere, by nicer looking and more varied Terrains
• Improving balancing of Terrains / Yields (e.g. Barley)
  
• Improving a few features as side effects (e.g. Health and Draining)

The things we have not yet clarified:

• Terrain Features (Forrests) on Plains and Marsh
  
• Bonus Ressources on Plains and Marsh

We can of course simply use the existing ones and match them to the new Terrains.
If @Schmiddie however has great new graphics, we would of course add them to have more eyecandy.

 

[Raubwuerger]

Short Info:

As side effect of this discussion (suggested by @devolution and also already requested a couple of times),
it is now possible to colour "Wool Cloth" and thus produce "Coloured Cloth" as well.

So to summarize:

• (Cotton) Cloth + Indio = Coloured Cloth (old)
  
• Wool Cloth + Indigo = Coloured Cloth (added / new)

Spoiler :

Very good. That was one thing that confused me ...

 

[Sarin]

The the discussion might have been a bit confusing.
(And a lot of it ran in our internal modders forum in parallel.)

So to make it easier, I repeat the summary here:

• We want to introduce Marsh (Low value "Grasland" that however gives "Herbs" on Hills)
  
• We want to introduce Plains (Food and Breeding Paradise, with less Cash Yields)
  
• We will not have more Yields (we will just rebalance "Barley" by removing it from Grasland and Prarie but putting it on Plains)
• We will thus also not have more Experts, Buildings, ...
  
• We will rename "Coca" to "Herbs" to use it for "Health" (and "Coca Planter" to "Herb Collector")
  
• By doing so we get rid of balancing issues of "Coca" / "Coca Planter" (low value because not common enough and no strategic meaning)
• We regain a bit of nostalgica from Original Colonization by finally bringing all its Terrains back to Civ4Col by WTP !
• We get more eyecandy by more beautiful Terrains from Schmiddie
• Draining Feature finally gets more useful (becaue we can now Drain "Marsh" and "Swamp")
  
• I will have to redo the Maps anyways for "Large Rivers"
• We will also have to adjust the MapScripts anyways

So it comes down to these aspects:

• Nostalgica and atmospere, by nicer looking and more varied Terrains
• Improving balancing of Terrains / Yields (e.g. Barley)
  
• Improving a few features as side effects (e.g. Health and Draining)

The things we have not yet clarified:

• Terrain Features (Forrests) on Plains and Marsh
  
• Bonus Ressources on Plains and Marsh

We can of course simply use the existing ones and match them to the new Terrains.
If @Schmiddie however has great new graphics, we would of course add them to have more eyecandy.

I'm not really sold on the idea of herbs. Medicinal herbs grow in all climates, making them exclusive to one terrain and tying them to the health system doesn't strike me as good thing.

WtP does in fact already have yields that should serve a health purpose. Beer, wine, rum. Not kidding, alcohol was a necessity in those days. Urbanization inherently contaminates nearby water sources, and alcohol is the one of the oldest, and until 20th century most common ways of making drinks safe.

So what would I do is to get rid of coca altogether, and either move or add coffee to its place. It is, after all, originally a highland plant, and it does just as well in hilly areas as in lowlands. And in order to achieve even number of goods again, I'd merge cloth and wool cloth. They're now effectively the same as you're allowing both to be dyed.

Just be careful about balancing. You are making cotton a subpar yield with this change, as it doesn't have the same food yield as sheep, so the practical wool production per tile should be about half of what you can get from cotton.

 

[raystuttgart]

... making them exclusive to one terrain and tying them to the health system doesn't strike me as good thing.

They are not exclusive to one Terrain - there are 2.
"Herbs" will appear on both "Marsh" and "Swamp" which can usually be found quite nicely distributed.
(Both in South America and North America.)

Also, the "Old Medic Profession" will not disappear.
There will just be a second one which is more efficient if it gets "Medicine".
(The thresholds for "negative health" might be lowered though.)

Just be careful about balancing.

Have a little trust in our game designs and balancing.
We are not beginners with this.

You are making cotton a subpar yield with this change, ...

"Sheep" need to be brought to the New World, bred and slaughered. (And then you also still have to produce "Wool Cloth" first from "Wool".)
There is more effort involved compared to "Cotton". (There you directly produce "Cloth" from "Cotton".)

In Most games you will simply end up producing "Coloured Coloth" from both ("Wool Cloth" and "Cloth".)
And both still need "Indigo", which can only be found in "Prairie".

And you will still produce "Wool Cloth" without colouring it, because it is highly demanded on the "Doemstic Market".
(It has a higher demand on the "Domestic Market" than "Cloth" - because it is used by "normal workers".)

If you have enough food, the "Cloth from Cotton" is in fact be more interesting than "Wool Cloth from Wool" since it binds less work force.
The change mentioned above does not really change this, just because you can now make "Coloured Cloth" of both.

Also with a similar same argument, we could say that "Tobacco" is a "subpar Yield".
(Because it directly stops after "Cigars" and "Coloured Cloth" is more valuable.)

The balancing in WTP (as it was in RaR) is asymetric by purpose.
Not every Yield behaves the same and has the same advantages / benefits.

Wait and see how you like it ingame.

 

[raystuttgart]

@Schmiddie

Do you think it is possible that we integrate "Mangroves" from "Tortuga"?
(To be placed in "Tropical Regions" on "Swamps")

It would also be nice to have a specific "Terrain Feature" for "Marsh".
(But I am currently missing a good idea.)

I have a nice idea for "Mangroves":

Basically I want to separate "Valuable Wood" from "Cocoa" in "Tropical Regions" - which are currently both on "Jungle".
(I would put "Valuable Wood" / "Giant Trees" on "Mangroves" / "Swamps".)

In exchange I currently think about allowing "normal Furs" / "Hunting" in "Jungles".
Thus making "Fur / Coat Production" available in "Tropical Regions" as well.
(Still need to think about it properly though considering impact on Terrain balancing ...)

 

[Sarin]

So far, it sounds like it'll limit the amount of viable colony spots. There should be alternative ways to gain health bonuses, especially if you settle more north...as of 2.8, the best first colony spot was definitely around the border of grassland and savanna regions.

Have you considered the alcohol for that purpose? There's a good reason why Mayflower carried extensive supply of beer, and establishing beer production was one of earliest priorities in the colonies....

 

[raystuttgart]

So far, it sounds like it'll limit the amount of viable colony spots.

Have a little trust and let me first implement something.
People have been scared of my feature concepts so many times and in the end they usually like them.

There should be alternative ways to gain health bonuses, ...

There is as I said.

1. The "old" Healer Profession (without Herbs) will still be available.
2. The "new" Healer Profession (with Herbs) will simply be more efficient.
3. "Marsh" + "Swamp" together are not as sparse as you fear.
4. The "Herbs" can be transported.

Have you considered the alcohol for that purpose?

Not for the "Healer" Profession, but we want to further enhance / overhaul the "Health System".
However "Health System Overhaul" is a completely different feature of its own and it will be done at a later point of time.

"Health System" however is not the focus of this thread / this concept.
There is just a side effect of this concept, that "Herbs" are prepared / made available to be used in "Health".

For "Health Overhaul" we have a separate thread.
(It is currently pretty low on my priority list, because so many bigger projects are in work right now.)

 

[Sarin]

Okay. It's funny though...wetlands were never healthiest spots to settle down, with all those mosquitoes, gnats or other bugs spreading diseases around and so on. Now you'll make them prime spa locations

 

[raystuttgart]

Now you'll make them prime spa locations

No, not at all, it just allows to collect herbs there.
(And only on the "Hills" to be precise.)

Again - this is just the "preparation" for the later following "Health Overhaul".
The "Health Overhaul" is simply also using "Herbs".

"Herbs" will not be the only thing that "Health Overhaul" will consider though - it might / will have a lot of other factors.
(The concept "Health Overhaul" is much more complex than that. "Herbs" are just a tiny puzzle piece.)

Please check this thread:

For "Health Overhaul" we have a separate thread.

 

[raystuttgart]

Guys, please understand that not every single feature / concept may be implemented simultaneously.
Concepts have dependencies and we need to discuss and implement them step by step - according to those dependencies.

• Every feature concept we implement adds a small puzzle piece - by giving new possibilities.
  
• Then other feature concepts can be connected to that puzzle piece.

The complete "vision" / "game architecture" that has all these dependencies considered is hard to imagine, I know.
And I also fully understand that you might get lost and confused with all the threads and discussions.

But when doing game design, we need to think 3 steps ahead - and I promise that we do.
(And it is impossible to do that, without knowing the "vision" / "game architecture" - which is also evolving.)

Right now, "Coca" is just renamed to "Herbs" so it may later on be used by the "Health Overhaul" (together with other effects).
(That is already it for now - most likely I will not even touch the "Medics Profession" at all until the implementation of "Health Overhaul" starts.)

We can only ask for a bit of trust and patience.

 

[Schmiddie]

@Schmiddie

Do you think it is possible that we integrate "Mangroves" from "Tortuga"?
(To be placed in "Tropical Regions" on "Swamps")

It would also be nice to have a specific "Terrain Feature" for "Marsh".
(But I am currently missing a good idea.)

I have a nice idea for "Mangroves":

Basically I want to separate "Valuable Wood" from "Cocoa" in "Tropical Regions" - which are currently both on "Jungle".
(I would put "Valuable Wood" / "Giant Trees" on "Mangroves" / "Swamps".)

In exchange I currently think about allowing "normal Furs" / "Hunting" in "Jungles".
Thus making "Fur / Coat Production" available in "Tropical Regions" as well.
(Still need to think about it properly though considering impact on Terrain balancing ...)

Of course, should be possible. However, as far as I remember the implementation of new terrain features is complicated and for a proper implementation and in particular the nice looking arrangement on the map needs to be done carefully... To be honest..I would not be interested to do that and all the other stuff to integrate and arrange boni, other terrain features nearby etc....

 

[Schmiddie]

I have an idea and a nice graphic for a bonus ressource for marsh and swamp: Reed ("Schilf" in German). Maybe we can use it as a bonus ressource like potatoes, corn etc., it looks very nice.

 

[raystuttgart]

Of course, should be possible.

Great.

However, as far as I remember the implementation of new terrain features is complicated ....

Do not worry, I will take care of all that, once I have the graphics.
(All the rest of the XML setup incl. balancing, adjusting existing Maps, ...)

All I need is the Terrain Graphics and maybe the ArtDef in XML.
(Especially if the ArtDef has FeatureVarieties it would really be great if you could prepare the ArtDef.)

I have an idea and a nice graphic for a bonus ressource for marsh and swamp: Reed ("Schilf" in German).

Would it not be better as "Terrain Feature"?
(Still using the same graphics.)

• Swamp: Terrain Feature "Mangroves"
• Marsh: Terrain Feature "Reed"

Logically and considering immersion it would fit perfecly.

 

[Schmiddie]

No, that would look ugly. Trust me, it is nothing that should be spread all over the map.

 

[raystuttgart]

No, that would look ugly. Trust me, it is nothing that should be spread all over the map.

Ok, I have of course not yet seen the graphic and I fully trust your judgement.

What did you consider to do with it as "Bonus Ressource" though?
Maybe we might use it to e.g. give "Herbs" (as well).

 

[Schmiddie]

Yes, maybe. Sounds reasonable to me. I have no idea so far.

 

[Tugboatspotter]

I like all the current concepts here

I have a nice idea for "Mangroves":

Basically I want to separate "Valuable Wood" from "Cocoa" in "Tropical Regions" - which are currently both on "Jungle".
(I would put "Valuable Wood" / "Giant Trees" on "Mangroves" / "Swamps".)

In exchange I currently think about allowing "normal Furs" / "Hunting" in "Jungles".
Thus making "Fur / Coat Production" available in "Tropical Regions" as well.
(Still need to think about it properly though considering impact on Terrain balancing ...)

My only problem with this is fur coat production in tropical regions sounds very wrong.

 

[Schmiddie]

Yes, this sounds strange.

 

[devolution]

It would be nice to have an alternative yield for tropical forests!
IMHO tropical regions are so fertile anyway, that removing/reducing a yield could be appropriate.
How about reintroducing the tropical forest (from the original coloniation) and then setting the fur yield to be rather low (and then perhaps another yield, how about parrots ?)