More Traits

[majaczek]

+1/+2/+3 what exactly?

Starting population.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That's... I'm going to have to side with Faustmouse here. The traits are far too powerful as designed, and sometimes, such as with these kinds of choices, perhaps even to a penalizing degree for the ai. You start off a city at that kind of size and it won't have the infrastructure to handle the terrain around it not being developed and the property controls not having been built up - it would starve out and end up in a worse position than it would've if it had started off as a size 1! A player could probably contain it if they preplanned a lot... like bringing 6+ Law Enforcement and 6+ Healers and some educators and lots of workers but if the AI were starting cities with that kind of population it would collapse the city.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Current plans for population in new cities based on technology are 1 to start, 2 at Colonization and 3 at Steam Power. Then back to 1 when off world with the start of Space growing to 2 and 3 later.

The Great Bath currently gives a +1 population boost for the nation that builds it but goes obsolete before Colonization. This is being reviewed and may move to a different wonder. This is a very powerful boost.

For the traits I would have gone with at most

expansive +1/0/+1 city starting population, settler speed +1/ignore terrain cost/0
imperialistic 0/+1/0, settler speed +1/0/+1
​

As TB says perhaps infrastructure is the go, so have these traits have some auto build that provides some of the basic infrastructure instead.

edit We already give some basic buildings free to new cities and there is a list from RoM days that gives buildings free when the city is built, so this is possible.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Current plans for population in new cities based on technology are 1 to start, 2 at Colonization and 3 at Steam Power. Then back to 1 when off world with the start of Space growing to 2 and 3 later.

The Great Bath currently gives a +1 population boost for the nation that builds it but goes obsolete before Colonization. This is being reviewed and may move to a different wonder. This is a very powerful boost.

For the traits I would have gone with at most

expansive +1/0/+1 city starting population, settler speed +1/ignore terrain cost/0
imperialistic 0/+1/0, settler speed +1/0/+1
​

As TB says perhaps infrastructure is the go, so have these traits have some auto build that provides some of the basic infrastructure instead.

edit We already give some basic buildings free to new cities and there is a list from RoM days that gives buildings free when the city is built, so this is possible.

The question is can we assign free buildings by traits? That could be an interesting way to go with traits in general, particularly in tiered trait setups. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't do it through the traits infos but by the building infos, which is against the design method I wanted to be using for traits BUT do you know if it can be done already somehow?

RE the great bath... yeah it is! I've managed to get the bath in both MP games and it does help a lot. The game that was further behind benefited more from it because I planned better to have it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The Expression System has GOM_TRAIT so I would think so.

It would be in the canconstruct tag. In this case there would be no problem with building for the ai if it was just trait as it would be on/off. The problem would be in the ai for choosing what trait to level up.

 

[majaczek]

humm... I may nerf it a bit more but hmm...
actually town won't be starving because I use iYieldChange for food.
I thought all traits should be powerfull, but then I understood they would be hard to balance.

currently first town which has player expansive/imperialistic has size 4 and two annoyed citizens and not starve.

I may also penalize more Imeprialistic2 and Expansive2 if you wish

imperialistic is 2/3/5 and expansive is 1/2/3, so if you wish I may change it to:
2/2/3 and 1/1/2, but then I need something nice for expansive line so it won't be much worse than Imperialistic (and yeah Imperialistic affects citizen "specialists" so it gives negative yield maybe it's enough punishment)

Both Expansive an Imperialist gives

<iHappiness>-1</iHappiness>
<iLargestCityHappiness>1</iLargestCityHappiness>

and a malus to YieldModifier

EDIT: what is ignore terrain cost ? we don't seem to have it in schema...
also we don't seem to have ability to base traits on dificulty, or do you mean settler unit?

EDIT: I also give Starting culture for Imperialist and Expansive (expansive gets more)

 

[majaczek]

Current plans for population in new cities based on technology are 1 to start, 2 at Colonization and 3 at Steam Power. Then back to 1 when off world with the start of Space growing to 2 and 3 later.

The Great Bath currently gives a +1 population boost for the nation that builds it but goes obsolete before Colonization. This is being reviewed and may move to a different wonder. This is a very powerful boost.

For the traits I would have gone with at most

expansive +1/0/+1 city starting population, settler speed +1/ignore terrain cost/0
imperialistic 0/+1/0, settler speed +1/0/+1
​

As TB says perhaps infrastructure is the go, so have these traits have some auto build that provides some of the basic infrastructure instead.

edit We already give some basic buildings free to new cities and there is a list from RoM days that gives buildings free when the city is built, so this is possible.

Could anybody give the speed or promotion for all Settler PromotionLine or all Worker PromotionLine?
if so it would be good to have +1/+1/+2 speed for workers line for expansive, and +1/+1/+2 speed for imperialist. Also additional +1/+0/+0 worker speed for imperialist and +1/+0/+0 for Settler speed for expansive.

I read original traits and it seems Expansive is more about workers, and Imperialist is more about Settlers.

 

[majaczek]

Okay, it's possible

I am working on it...
How to use GOM-Option for traits?

EDIT: Maybe I should just use bTraitOnly ?

EDIT: Done. Needed a few tricks. here it is or here

table xlsx or table csv

one of tricks I used is marking all new worker/settler promos as <bLeader>

 

[majaczek]

Current plans for population in new cities based on technology are 1 to start, 2 at Colonization and 3 at Steam Power. Then back to 1 when off world with the start of Space growing to 2 and 3 later.

could you change it from 1/2/3 to 1/3/5 ? I mean the plans?

 

[Thunderbrd]

The Expression System has GOM_TRAIT so I would think so.

It would be in the canconstruct tag. In this case there would be no problem with building for the ai if it was just trait as it would be on/off. The problem would be in the ai for choosing what trait to level up.

canconstruct can't determine whether a building is given to a city for free when the city is founded does it?

As far as trait AI, it's based on the flavors of the traits matching to the flavors of the leaders and if the designer of the traits understands that the trait flavors are what will guide the decision and how that math works then it's irrelevant to try and break down individual benefits of given traits like you would for civics. You'd just rate the trait a little stronger under its pertinent flavors.

humm... I may nerf it a bit more but hmm...
actually town won't be starving because I use iYieldChange for food.
I thought all traits should be powerfull, but then I understood they would be hard to balance.

Understand that +1 population at city founding is considered a huge bonus that a world wonder can provide for a temporary period and still be considered to be one of the best wonders in the game for doing so. Just one extra pop at city start is huge. Even starting with three population in many cases I find starves off many cities, not all and it does depend on the food available to that city in the starting plots. A city could handle 8 or more starting population if every starting tile can produce 4 food or more without being improved. But put a city in an area where most tiles are 1 or 2 starting food without being improved and you'll starve out a city starting with more than 1.

currently first town which has player expansive/imperialistic has size 4 and two annoyed citizens and not starve.

And once those cities compensate for the unhappiness they are 4 times as ahead as other players in the game. I think the jump start they would get would be too much but I don't know for sure.

I personally would go with DH's plan and I worry that it's too strong what he proposed. But it would be at least a little moderate to start with.

what is ignore terrain cost ? we don't seem to have it in schema...

Where did this come up?

also we don't seem to have ability to base traits on dificulty, or do you mean settler unit?

Probably meant settler unit but where did this come up?

Could anybody give the speed or promotion for all Settler PromotionLine or all Worker PromotionLine?

I don't understand.

if so it would be good to have +1/+1/+2 speed for workers line for expansive, and +1/+1/+2 speed for imperialist. Also additional +1/+0/+0 worker speed for imperialist and +1/+0/+0 for Settler speed for expansive.

By speed do you mean travel speed or production speed? Travel speed would be modified by promotions wouldn't it or is there a tag for this specifically that I've forgotten about?

I read original traits and it seems Expansive is more about workers, and Imperialist is more about Settlers.

By some interpretations that's true.

How to use GOM-Option for traits?

He was talking about using it on the building autobuild tag which I think is one of our complex GOM boolean tags. These tags can use a special form of programming that declares a condition for when the tag is 'true', and the condition can be made to be whether the nation's leader has a particular trait or not. So the programming for a free building on founding a city based on a trait would be included in the xml for the building itself.

EDIT: Maybe I should just use bTraitOnly ?

On what?

one of tricks I used is marking all new worker/settler promos as <bLeader>

bLeader doesn't mean that. I always have to remind myself how it works when used but I think it means its specifically for units that are 'led' by a general or some other attached unit that has the leader ability. If this does get you around some kind of hang up then it will have unforseen consequences elsewhere.

could you change it from 1/2/3 to 1/3/5 ? I mean the plans?

If there becomes cause to perhaps we could consider that.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I was suggesting that a trait could give a promotion to settlers or workers that improved their movement rather than having increased population in new cities.

You can use a test on trait in the FreeNewCity tag on buildings.

 

[majaczek]

Oh yes instead... I already added the movement bonus from traits.
I know bLeader means units are lead by warlord or noble, but I cannot find how to make promotionline which cannot be advanced outside of traits. So I put bLeader as a hack - as meaning the unit cannot advance by itself the line.

I already limited the population bonus so imperialistic is 2/2/3 and expansive 1/1/2.

Expansive gives unit speed: Settler 1/0/0 Worker 1/1/2
Imperialist gives unit speed: Settler 1/1/2 Worker 1/0/0

Do you insist to decrease further population limit?
I would prefer adding malus (I am adding negative yield modifier), or increase good things for other traits.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I know bLeader means units are lead by warlord or noble, but I cannot find how to make promotionline which cannot be advanced outside of traits. So I put bLeader as a hack - as meaning the unit cannot advance by itself the line.

The trick is to give the promotions the proxy tech other 'only free' promotions get. I think it was renamed recently so I can't say exactly what it's supposed to be but you can see it in use on some other promos like Aggressive.

I already limited the population bonus so imperialistic is 2/2/3 and expansive 1/1/2.

Wow... that's still a hell of a lot. +1/+1/+1 would be the absolute limit I would expect to see for traits. What you have for imperialistic would be roughly equivalent to +50% production in all cities for each level of industrial in my opinion.

Do you insist to decrease further population limit?
I would prefer adding malus (I am adding negative yield modifier), or increase good things for other traits.

I don't insist on anything for a modmod but there's a certain degree of restraint and balance that will be necessary if the traits are to become core.

 

[majaczek]

What I meant about "insisting", is if that my view on "balancing" is in your opinion enough "balanced" to integrate into trunk later. In my design 3rd tier of Trait is acknowledgable better than 1st or 2nd, so if you "insist" i may make Imperialistic +1/+1/+2, but then what with expansive?

Could you explain the proxy tech? Is it already ingame (so please tell me which is it) or I should add one?

Hmm I may add some other promos for expansive. Currently working speed is +64/+64/+64 and I believe it's a percent.

And if I finish the traits, I would need, please, some fix on flavours from your site, because I don't seem to change it well.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I suppose I could see +1/+1/+2 being reasonable. A trait with a lesser focus on that tag could go: +0/+1/+1.

The tech for promos that are only supposed to be given for free is:
<TechPrereq>TECH_DUMMY</TechPrereq>

The flavors are tough to do. I had been creating a tally system so that each tag value would add or subtract an amount of a flavor type and I was using that to keep all traits in balance, ensuring that each trait had the same overall amount of total flavor values. For what you're doing, you'll probably have to just 'feel it out'.

 

[majaczek]

new version https://www.dropbox.com/s/hbt3bbotujm2ypf/majaczek_C2C_149_beta.7z?dl=0 - changed city starting size, and added TechPrereq

EDIT: New version - changed some free promotions https://www.dropbox.com/s/x5lxdhtj8ms8seb/majaczek_C2C_151_beta.7z?dl=0

New Table - https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B86cxlMj84asSDE4REpoemxnOTg

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Worker Speed itself is not a percent. Many techs and some bonuses improve all workers Work Speed by a percent. I do not know what the tag is on traits.

Workers have a "Work Speed" and improvements have a "Work Cost". The time it takes for a worker to complete an improvement is "Work Cost"/"Work Speed"

 

[majaczek]

okay... so what are reasonable values for iWorkerSpeed? I made it 64/96/128 on Expansive line. It seems I may given too much...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Most changes are in increments of 5-10. Giving a worker +5% at the start of the game will put those workers ahead by 5% throughout the game. I would think 5/5/5, as they are cumulative also, may be enough.

 

[Faustmouse]

Workers get so much speed enhancements through the tech tree. Last time I've looked it was about 50% with each of these techs. Then 15% doesn't seem that much.

Is the 5% additive with other bonuses?

Or is the 5% added afterwards, on the already modified value?