Most Epic Screwups in History?

[Antilogic]

The Athenians had lost the war with their fiasco in Sicily, if I recall correctly. They still managed to drag out the conflict for years afterwards...but losing that many troops and ships to a single Spartan general with Sicilian troops...embarassing, no? Don Kagan's book was quite good --that was my intro to the period.

I remember Nero being more concerned with poetry and music than anything else. He participated in the Greek poetry and theatre competitions, again if I recall correctly, and the Greeks lauded him, and they built statues of Nero and littered them around Greece. Earlier posters may be thinking of Caligula, who became cruel, paranoid, and perverse by the end of his short reign. Or any number of later dictators like Commodus, of which little good can be said.

The thing is, monarchies are "official"--as in, the hereditary head of state is officially recognized as the head of the government. Although Augustus is often recognized as Rome's first emperor, he never held the official title. He was "just" a senator, and everybody obeyed him. Same thing during Rome's Golden Age (5 Good Emperors). I can recall very few occasions when the Roman people rose against a dictator...maybe Maxentius in the Imperial Crisis period counts. I remember several engagements between generals trying to take the empire after the last military dictator died.


EDIT: How dare I forget the original reason why I posted? One of my friends from my undergrad days called Sparta the North Korea of its day...basket case economy, huge army...it's not a perfect analogy, but it's still funny.

 

[Dachs]

The Athenians had lost the war with their fiasco in Sicily, if I recall correctly. They still managed to drag out the conflict for years afterwards...but losing that many troops and ships to a single Spartan general with Sicilian troops...embarassing, no?

Embarrassing, yeah. But even if he ultimately was the reason for the failure of the expedition, Nikias was right: there really was no gain to be had from conquering Syrakousai. It was populous, and far away, and therefore difficult to control. Judging from the inability of the Karchedonians to hold the city against Timoleon, the Athenians, even had their conquered the place, would have lost it relatively quickly, and gained nothing with which to tip the balance in the Aigion. So yes: quite an epic screwup, from start to finish, which even when it was going well would have been a disaster in the end. I feel kinda bad that Lamachos and Demosthenes had to get themselves dragged into the whole fiasco, they were both quite able leaders. Would've been nice to have Demosthenes in particular around later...he and Thrasyboulos would've made a fantastic team.

But if you want to find the actual turning point of the war, I usually go for Mantineia in 418 BC(E).

Don Kagan's book was quite good --that was my intro to the period.

Yeah, I liked it too. Since I didn't have a copy of the Hellenika for the longest time, it was pretty handy for the latter part of the war, which ultimately interests me the most.

I remember Nero being more concerned with poetry and music than anything else. He participated in the Greek poetry and theatre competitions, again if I recall correctly, and the Greeks lauded him, and they built statues of Nero and littered them around Greece.

He did some other minor stuff too, like carry out a legislative war with the Senate over the urban poor, and have a little tea party with the Parthian army.

EDIT: How dare I forget the original reason why I posted? One of my friends from my undergrad days called Sparta the North Korea of its day...basket case economy, huge army...it's not a perfect analogy, but it's still funny.

It's not half-bad, except the Spartan economy wasn't that terrible until they lost the battles of Leuktra and Mantineia (the other Mantineia), while their army was a lot higher quality and comparatively smaller than the North Koreans. I'd liken it more to the rebellious states during the American Civil War (down to the slave economy ), though the analogy breaks down quite a bit there too. But yeah, Sparta: not a way to run a country. Don't do it, kids.

 

[Antilogic]

What I found interesting was the Spartan demographics: their population shrunk since they instituted the Lycurgan system.

Their 100%-male-citizen-in-army policy led to their troops being in barracks rather than with women during their prime years. Their phalanx shrank from 10,000 in the 5th century to only 700 when the Romans came through. Calling it a slave economy isn't far from the truth--didn't they declare war on their helot slaves every year, beat them, and have their teenagers spy on them and kill them if they so chose?

There's just nothing close to the level of brutal awesomeness of Sparta around these days. Probably because the system was so utterly self-destructive.

 

[Dachs]

What I found interesting was the Spartan demographics: their population shrunk since they instituted the Lycurgan system.

Yep, which is why this happened.

Calling it a slave economy isn't far from the truth--didn't they declare war on their helot slaves every year, beat them, and have their teenagers spy on them and kill them if they so chose?

Bit of a simplification of the krypteia system, but yeah, something like that.

There's just nothing close to the level of brutal awesomeness of Sparta around these days. Probably because the system was so utterly self-destructive.

I myself range towards the ambivalent to disgusted view of Spartan history.

 

[Ondskan]

He was referring to all the 'good' tyrants out there. And there were many. Tyrant simply means one who gains power through unconventional means, there's nothing perjorative about it, though it has come to be seen that way. Probably due to the fact that those "unconventional means" usually involved betrayal and murder. But this was not always the case. The legendary Oedipus was a tyrant, for example, and he became king by slaying a monster - the Sphinx - that was terrorising Thebes.

As for the rest of your comments, well, Dachs has quite thoroughly schooled you, and it was great to watch. And please stop saying "common." It's "come on," or "c'mon." Or, if you're Joe Pesci, "C'maaaaaaaaarn." One must also beckon a person with their fingertips, preferably while brandishing a switchblade, for that last one.

No he hasn't.
And no, he was speaking of a specific group called "the thirty tyrants" which were all evil bastards put there by Sparta against whom the population revolted. So they can't be counted, feel free to give examples of other tyrants in Athenian democracy. Now go and do something I can't write here.

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[Dachs]

And no, he was speaking of a specific group called "the thirty tyrants" which were all evil bastards put there by Sparta against whom the population revolted.

I was giving them as an example of bad tyrants, dude. Learn how to read in the English language, it's helpful. I even clarified that I was using them as examples of such, and you conveniently ignored me.

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So they can't be counted, feel free to give examples of other tyrants in Athenian democracy.

Easy: Peisistratos, who was already mentioned. I win. I got another one: Demetrios Phalereus. And those are just Athenian good tyrannoi...

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

That Demetrius of Phaleron is considered a good tyrannoi should be a measure of how futile your position is, Ondskan.

 

[Dachs]

That Demetrius of Phaleron is considered a good tyrannoi should be a measure of how futile your position is, Ondskan.

Well, he wasn't all that bad. I think that the sumptuary laws are balanced by the legal reforms, which were mostly positive. Green, IMHO, has a bit of a bone to pick with Demetrios, and doesn't show much of the good side of him, while constantly harping on the fact that his reforms were motivated by his philosophical background and painting him as nothing better than a puppet of Kassandros (if Green has any faults, they are ideological ones...). Probably was a bit of hyperbole to call him good, but he certainly can't be called bad.

 

[Antilogic]

I myself range towards the ambivalent to disgusted view of Spartan history.

I figured I would get a "stop hailing Sparta!" post.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Well, he wasn't all that bad. I think that the sumptuary laws are balanced by the legal reforms, which were mostly positive. Green, IMHO, has a bit of a bone to pick with Demetrios, and doesn't show much of the good side of him, while constantly harping on the fact that his reforms were motivated by his philosophical background and painting him as nothing better than a puppet of Kassandros (if Green has any faults, they are ideological ones...). Probably was a bit of hyperbole to call him good, but he certainly can't be called bad.

Yeah, that and the whole "butchering everyone I don't agree with" deal, but then that's rather par for the course in Athens, even during the Democracy.

 

[Dachs]

Yeah, that and the whole "butchering everyone I don't agree with" deal, but then that's rather par for the course in Athens, even during the Democracy.

Exactly. Context, context.

 

[Ondskan]

I was giving them as an example of bad tyrants, dude. Learn how to read in the English language, it's helpful. I even clarified that I was using them as examples of such, and you conveniently ignored me.

Why the hell do you write so many stupid things among the your otherwise great posts. Your example was of no importance, it had no value, it was like a light breeze trying to propell a modern destroyer.

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If it was the spartans that put the dictators called "the thirty tyrants" there and did so not through democratic process but through force then how is that in any way relevant to the debate we were having about Athenian DEMOCRACY? And how are they examples of athenian leaders who were bad as the athenians had nothing to do in their leader election. There were no examples of what we were discussing.



Your other example is also formed of peopel who more or less overthrew the Athenian democracy. As such they cannot be counter to the democracy. Neither in positive nor negative regard and as such shouldn't even have been mentioned in the discussion.


Then again it can be interesting and fun to add cool facts surrounding the Greek peninsula overall. If that was the intention then I beg my pardon. But if the intention was to use them as an argument against the Athenian democracy then that does not make sense and is a logical fallacy.

 

[philippe]

Why the hell do you write so many stupid things among the your otherwise great posts. Your example was of no importance, it had no value, it was like a light breeze trying to propell a modern destroyer.

If it was the spartans that put the dictators called "the thirty tyrants" there and did so not through democratic process but through force then how is that in any way relevant to the debate we were having about Athenian DEMOCRACY? And how are they examples of athenian leaders who were bad as the athenians had nothing to do in their leader election. There were no examples of what we were discussing.



Your other example is also formed of peopel who more or less overthrew the Athenian democracy. As such they cannot be counter to the democracy. Neither in positive nor negative regard and as such shouldn't even have been mentioned in the discussion.


Then again it can be interesting and fun to add cool facts surrounding the Greek peninsula overall. If that was the intention then I beg my pardon. But if the intention was to use them as an argument against the Athenian democracy then that does not make sense and is a logical fallacy.

this post didn't make any sense. This must be a fallacy.

 

[jeps]

this post didn't make any sense. This must be a fallacy.

also he spelled 'people' wrong, so his entire post is more meaningless than it already was.

 

[Ondskan]

also he spelled 'people' wrong, so his entire post is more meaningless than it already was.

Ever heard of a typo jackass?
Right, I'll explain it in a way even you lesser beings can understand.
Is Franco an authoritarian and quite brutal example of Spanish democracy?

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[philippe]

Ever heard of a typo jackass?
Right, I'll explain it in a way even you lesser beings can understand.
Is Franco an authoritarian and quite brutal example of Spanish democracy?

dear, before you even try and make a point, make sure what your point is, and that you take up a basic course in linguistics, before making one.

Moderator Action: No personal attk pls. - KD
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

for example: did you know that revolution was used for centuries without having the meaning it has today? try looking it up, in an historic dictionary.

now, try looking up dictator, read the entry, re-read yours and Dachs posts, and post a small apology.

 

[Ondskan]

dear, before you even try and make a point, make sure what your point is, and that you take up a basic course in linguistics, before making one.

for example: did you know that revolution was used for centuries without having the meaning it has today? try looking it up, in an historic dictionary.

now, try looking up dictator, read the entry, re-read yours and Dachs posts, and post a small apology.

Alright, explain to the unenlightened what the hell revolution now has to do with anything?

 

[philippe]

Alright, explain to the unenlightened what the hell revolution now has to do with anything?

I was referring to etymology and i gave an example. I don't think my last post was that hard to understand.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Locked.

This thread is not worth moderating anymore.