Most Important City in History?
- Thread starter Pangur Bán
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North King
blech
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I voted Chang'an, for its influence on the entire world during the 7th-9th centuries (Its goods influenced trade from Europe to Japan, and a huge trade with China existed throughout the old world), Jerusalem (much as I dislike religious conflicts, this one must rank highly because of them), Rome (Center of Western Civilization, Blah Blah Blah), and Constantinople (Center of Western and islamic civilization, Blah Blah Blah). Though if there had been an option for Mecca I would've added it.
Zenon_pt
Civing on the real world
Jerusalem! Holly for all!!!
Great to see you Calgacus!
Great to see you Calgacus!
i realize that rome was probably the cultural centerpoint of the world for a long time, but people have fought over jerusalem and continue to fight over it and will continue for centuries to come.
that must make it important to someone right?
that must make it important to someone right?
Point13
Like a ton of bricks!
Jerusalem, Holy to the Jews, Muslims, and Christians. Has been the objective of 3 Crusades, while Israelis and Palestinians continue to war over the land today.
philippe
FYI, I chase trains.
I chose rome and babylon
h4ppy
You sir, pineapple?
Rome, Babylon, Constantinople, in no particular order. Rome got in because it was the center of Rome, and of the Catholic Church/ Babylon because it was the rise of civilization and if you count the later incarnations it has basically been around from the begining to the present of human history. Lots of empire and people passed through it's many gates. Constantinople for the same reasons as Rome. I would vote for a Chinese city but they had a nasty habit of moving their capital around which prevented them from having a "supercity".
And I simply must disagree with the Jerusalem fans, really it wasn't until much later that the place became important. (Isreal was just one of many mediterranian civs at that time and I firmly believe that the Phoenicians were more important) It was not a super city when the Romans ruled it. (Antioch) It served as an importnat holy city during the middle ages, and to the present day but untill modern times most of the important decisions in Christianity and the jewish faith were made elsewhere. (can't coment on the Muslims since I really don't know)
And I simply must disagree with the Jerusalem fans, really it wasn't until much later that the place became important. (Isreal was just one of many mediterranian civs at that time and I firmly believe that the Phoenicians were more important) It was not a super city when the Romans ruled it. (Antioch) It served as an importnat holy city during the middle ages, and to the present day but untill modern times most of the important decisions in Christianity and the jewish faith were made elsewhere. (can't coment on the Muslims since I really don't know)
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
Chang'an was a Chinese "supercity"; it contained between 650, 000 and 2,000, 000 people in the Tang period, when it was the capital. It was also the capital in the time of the former Han. Tang Chang'an easily surpassed classical Rome at its height in terms of size, and it dwarfed Constantinople.
Here's a website on Chang'an:
http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/cities/china/xian/xian.html
Loyang, Nanking, Kaifeng, Hangchow and later Peking rivalled and surpassed the greatest cities in the world at various points.
h4ppy
You sir, pineapple?
I mean this throughout recorded history, if they wouldn't have switched the capital every other dynasty then I would have easily voted Chang'an.
Giotto
Eagle
I said Other.... specifically Florence.
Florence shaped the renaissance, the renaissance shaped the world today.
Florence shaped the renaissance, the renaissance shaped the world today.
Rome, not even a close second.
All other important Western cities in would not have existed as they are without Rome, how could they even be considered?
London, which started as a Roman outpost?
Athens would have been forgotten had the Romans not adapted and forcibly spread their ideas.
All other cities in the area had minor contributions, which likely would have been effectivley accomplished by another city anyhow. No doubt they were very important, but for one reason or another their contributions have not been carried to other times/civilizations intact.
Without Rome, no modern science/technology, which has controlled or been part of every significant event for hundreds of years (though I admit Romans themselves were not great scientists...)
No doubt Chinese cities were large and advanced, but they were too insular to go crusading around the world, they pretty much minded their own affairs (even to this day). Nor has China made any significant contributeions to science, except possibly for the last few years, but that has been Western-based.
Jerusalem has had a minor part in history, mostly it's notable for frequently having it's inhabitants randomly rearranged across several continents, an empty city doesn't have much impact, and anything under development is completely lost, no continuity. Nor have wars for Jerusalem significantly altered history, they have been wars that people fought only when there was nothing more urgent on their minds. Even the crusades only hastened the spread of preexisting ideas.
Nor would Christianity or Islam even have been started with out Rome, given its prominence in Biblical events, and Rome has been the center of Christianity during all of its significant periods.
If you were to remove one city (as with the "remove city" funtion in "Cheat" in Civ2) to make the world totally unrecognizable today, it would be Rome. China would be dominant, and everyone including them would be "pagans" in the dark ages.
All other important Western cities in would not have existed as they are without Rome, how could they even be considered?
London, which started as a Roman outpost?
Athens would have been forgotten had the Romans not adapted and forcibly spread their ideas.
All other cities in the area had minor contributions, which likely would have been effectivley accomplished by another city anyhow. No doubt they were very important, but for one reason or another their contributions have not been carried to other times/civilizations intact.
Without Rome, no modern science/technology, which has controlled or been part of every significant event for hundreds of years (though I admit Romans themselves were not great scientists...)
No doubt Chinese cities were large and advanced, but they were too insular to go crusading around the world, they pretty much minded their own affairs (even to this day). Nor has China made any significant contributeions to science, except possibly for the last few years, but that has been Western-based.
Jerusalem has had a minor part in history, mostly it's notable for frequently having it's inhabitants randomly rearranged across several continents, an empty city doesn't have much impact, and anything under development is completely lost, no continuity. Nor have wars for Jerusalem significantly altered history, they have been wars that people fought only when there was nothing more urgent on their minds. Even the crusades only hastened the spread of preexisting ideas.
Nor would Christianity or Islam even have been started with out Rome, given its prominence in Biblical events, and Rome has been the center of Christianity during all of its significant periods.
If you were to remove one city (as with the "remove city" funtion in "Cheat" in Civ2) to make the world totally unrecognizable today, it would be Rome. China would be dominant, and everyone including them would be "pagans" in the dark ages.
NewWaver
Special Agent
Jerusalem.
h4ppy
You sir, pineapple?
You sir have never read a book about ancient China.
Jerusalem was a very important city, very likely not the most important - but still, the religions sorrounding it, things that were buried in it... It had a very big significance in history and has a lot of significance today.
Some people say that one of the reasons Israel started its pre-emptive attack in 1967 was to control the rest of Jerusalem, and the Six Days War is one of the most important wars (if not the most important) in the last 60 years (not counting WWII).
I also think that if peace was to arrive in the middle east, Jerusalem would have a very significant role.
If a lasting and real peace would actually come to pass here, Jerusalem would probably one of the most toured places in the world.
As for my choices - Rome, London and Jerusalem. But I didn't notice it was multi-choice (strangely enough) until I read it here in the thread and I accidently only voted for Jerusalem.
Some people say that one of the reasons Israel started its pre-emptive attack in 1967 was to control the rest of Jerusalem, and the Six Days War is one of the most important wars (if not the most important) in the last 60 years (not counting WWII).
I also think that if peace was to arrive in the middle east, Jerusalem would have a very significant role.
If a lasting and real peace would actually come to pass here, Jerusalem would probably one of the most toured places in the world.
As for my choices - Rome, London and Jerusalem. But I didn't notice it was multi-choice (strangely enough) until I read it here in the thread and I accidently only voted for Jerusalem.
Not pure physical science perhaps but it's hard to see how well the West would do without the basic inventions of paper, gunpowder and the compass by the Chinese and transmitted westwards, amongst other things.
Oh, I doubt so. For one, Carthage would have survived and for another, the Greek cities wouldn't have been so devastated when the Romans fought their civil wars in her territory, perhaps enabling a new renaissance. Persia, Egypt too could have minded their own business and perhaps could withstand the Islamic onslaught when it came, out of Arabia.
To H4ppy:
I have read quite a bit about ancient China, though probably never a whole book. But you may be misinterpreting what I said.
To XIII:
Both very good points. What I meant by science was math, physics and industrialization, the things that have clearly changed the world from how it was in China or medeival Europe.
And as for the "dark age" reference, you are undoubtedly quite right that there were many others ready to take Romes place, (I was actually exaggerating quite a bit, especially about China), but in this case, Rome was the one that got lucky, and thus my vote.
I have read quite a bit about ancient China, though probably never a whole book. But you may be misinterpreting what I said.
To XIII:
Both very good points. What I meant by science was math, physics and industrialization, the things that have clearly changed the world from how it was in China or medeival Europe.
And as for the "dark age" reference, you are undoubtedly quite right that there were many others ready to take Romes place, (I was actually exaggerating quite a bit, especially about China), but in this case, Rome was the one that got lucky, and thus my vote.
If you drew a power graph for each city in the way civ3 does for each empire, London would be the clear leader.
I'm not gloating. In ancient history, Londinium was nothing and Rome (among others) were the centres of influence but their influence only stretched so far and none were influencial in a global context.
Prior to the industrial revolution, London slowly developed at a fair and anticipated pace for any capitol.
Then it bulges out to extreme proportions for a couple of hundred years.
In the modern era it retains much of that power. London still acts as a bridge between DC and the rest of the world, and most of DC successes are achieved with London's help.
Strong contacts in the Commonwealth, EU, NATO and seat on UN security council exceeds the reach of any other single city. Until just recently you could add "capitol of the middle east" to that list; a name acquired from the huge number of mid.east organisations and diplomats based in London.
London has inherited and remains at the centre of world diplomacy, sharing recognition with DC at the start of the 21st Century but by no means weilding less influence.
Recent examples: It was London that persuaded DC to accept the Libyan offer that resulted in a lifting of the UN sanctions, it was London that acquired UN seats on behalf of smaller commonwealth members, it was London that (stupidly) championed DC's position on Iraq.
What I mean is, London remains the best positioned for mediating between the large number of heads of states.
I don't know if influence equates to importance, but the most important events normally relly on an influencial city to find supporters.
I'm not gloating. In ancient history, Londinium was nothing and Rome (among others) were the centres of influence but their influence only stretched so far and none were influencial in a global context.
Prior to the industrial revolution, London slowly developed at a fair and anticipated pace for any capitol.
Then it bulges out to extreme proportions for a couple of hundred years.
In the modern era it retains much of that power. London still acts as a bridge between DC and the rest of the world, and most of DC successes are achieved with London's help.
Strong contacts in the Commonwealth, EU, NATO and seat on UN security council exceeds the reach of any other single city. Until just recently you could add "capitol of the middle east" to that list; a name acquired from the huge number of mid.east organisations and diplomats based in London.
London has inherited and remains at the centre of world diplomacy, sharing recognition with DC at the start of the 21st Century but by no means weilding less influence.
Recent examples: It was London that persuaded DC to accept the Libyan offer that resulted in a lifting of the UN sanctions, it was London that acquired UN seats on behalf of smaller commonwealth members, it was London that (stupidly) championed DC's position on Iraq.
What I mean is, London remains the best positioned for mediating between the large number of heads of states.
I don't know if influence equates to importance, but the most important events normally relly on an influencial city to find supporters.
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