Most useless UB other than Dun

[RockTheCazbah87]

On the heels of my last game...I'd like to nominate the Mausoleum. How many play Indian civs as warmongers? How often are you going to build Jails in the first place? How valuable is a little more espionage? Ehhh.

Asoka hasn't got too bad warmongering traits. Spiritual gives you quick civic changes without Anarchy, and Organized can cut costs in a REX'ing campaign.

 

[jray]

I understand that the Dun has its uses, but the gleeful LACK of synergy with the Celtic UU just rubs me the wrong way. Every time I build a Gallic Warrior from a city with a Dun I can hear Sid laughing at me.

Well, since melee units do NOT otherwise get the free Guerilla I from the Dun (despite the description of the Dun saying all land units get the bonus), I wouldn't say there's a synergy problem here. Or is this just a bug with the Dun? Even Boudica, who gets free Combat I from Aggressive, thus satisfying the prerequisite for Guerilla I, does not get the free Guerilla I from the Dun from melee units. Now that just seems wrong and must be a bug! Anyone know?

 

[DigitalBoy]

and that Odeon and Hippodrome should switch the building they substitute for exceptionally evident reasons (Odeon = Theatre and Hippodrome = Coliseum, not the other way around).

I hope not. I rather like Construction with its combined growth (odeon) and military (catapault) implications.

 

[Inky]

The Dun isn't entirely useless, but it does force you to play its way in order to get value from it.

Melee units don't get Guerilla. The Gallic Warrior is a special exception, but unfortunately for synergy, it doesn't get any benefit from the Dun. If it got promoted to Guerilla-2 (afaik it doesn't) from it, that would be excellent, and make the combo pretty useful.

As it is, archery and gunpowder units only get the benefit. Now archers with hill bonuses are excellent for dealing with barbarians, and crossbows (and to some degree longbows) are fairly decent attackers with guerrilla-3. Build all cities on hills, and your defending archers can easily have guerilla-2 and a fine defense bonus early in the game.

It isn't amazing, just decent. Promote them all to later gunpowder units and the hill bonus can be quite nice. 50% withdrawalmech infantry are cool too.

I figure a marginal UB is the price you pay for powerful leader traits.

 

[Hawe Hawe]

Asoka hasn't got too bad warmongering traits. Spiritual gives you quick civic changes without Anarchy, and Organized can cut costs in a REX'ing campaign.

Absolutely, Ashoka is one of the best war mongers at all. He is able to afford an early police state via pyramids, very strong.
I haven't tried him since BtS, but since Jails generally got better with their espionage bonus, the Mausoleum to me seems rather overpowered than useless.

For me the ethiopian Stele is useless. Ok, when you decide to go for a cultural victory from the start it is like going down a level. But in a normal game a creative Civ doesn't need extra +25%(?) culture on a culture producing building. I even consider it to be dangerous because you are giving cultural pressure on neighbor cities very early. You might earn more neagtive relation points with those neighbors too.

 

[snipafist]

For me the ethiopian Stele is useless. Ok, when you decide to go for a cultural victory from the start it is like going down a level. But in a normal game a creative Civ doesn't need extra +25%(?) culture on a culture producing building. I even consider it to be dangerous because you are giving cultural pressure on neighbor cities very early. You might earn more neagtive relation points with those neighbors too.

Disagreed. It means you take large, large chunks of land easily in the beginning, giving you plenty of room to expand (Organized, hooray!) and keeping your enemies at a healthy distance. In the early game, the +25% culture generated from a stele with a creative civ is +3.75/turn all on its own. Throw in monastaries and temples and the like, and you easily become a cultural juggernaut.

 

[weregamer]

In contrast to this, the ger is probably one of the worst buildings to have.
It does not confer any more upgrades that a normal stables would (alone and with barracks) since you go either from
2 -> 4 xp (from 1 to 2 upgrades with no barracks)
or
5 -> 7 xp (2 upgrades with barracks)
in comparison with a stable.

+2 xp is nice, but another promotion would have made this useful.
The difference in combat effectiveness between a 2 and a 4 XP keshik is the same as a 5 and a 7 XP Keshik, zero.
Therefor i deem the Ger the most useless UB next to the Dun.

I guess you've never heard of Theocracy, Vassalage, or Charismatic leaders then. The combination of the Keshik for extremely early conquests and the Ger all the way to Cavalry makes the Mongols excellent warmongers.

Barracks + Stable + Vassalage + Theocracy = 9 xp, still short of the third promotion unless you are Charismatic. Ger makes that 11, an extra promotion. If your leader is Charismatic, 8 is the third promotion and 13 is the fourth, so the first Great General you get will have you getting four promotions on each brand-new mounted unit at your main troop factory city, and until then you can switch out one of the civics for a more productive one and still have 3 promotions at all your production cities.

With the addition of espionage, I'd rate the Citadel as the worst UB; Jails are no longer gravy, but Castles still suck. Castles just come at the wrong time, and I pretty much never build them. Replacing defensive units with better ones, or building economic buildings, or building something for culture for defense that won't go obsolete, are a better use of hammers than a building that will go obsolete so fast. My games break down into three categories:

* I plan and start an early war. By the time I can build Castles it's over, and I have switched to growth mode to get to gunpowder first.

* I get stuck with an early war I don't want in a game where I was planning to expand first. I've already lost, Castles might delay it, but while I'm holding off the horde in that city with the castle the uninvolved civs are springing ahead in tech and economy.

* I don't get stuck with an early war, and achieve economic dominance on plan. Castles will be obsolete before I start conquering.

 

[HiroHito]

castles give +1 traderoute, +25% EP, maybe you forgot to factor that in ?

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

castles give +1 traderoute, +25% EP, maybe you forgot to factor that in ?

It's still bad though, because it goes obsolete so soon.

 

[slobberinbear]

Dislike: Citadel. Castles sound good in theory, but by the time they're enabled, the obsoleting tech is just around the corner.

Love: Sacrificial Altar! Whipping every 5 turns, with a good food city and granary, is like doubling your production.

 

[kniteowl]

I reckon Castles should lose the Trade route bonus and receive a +2XP bonus to Siege units... I reckon people would more likely to build them because it harder to receive XP to Siege units in battle now since they can't kill and since they obsolete with economics, you could delay it for some nice +5XP cannons.

 

[Nay]

I guess you've never heard of Theocracy, Vassalage, or Charismatic leaders then. The combination of the Keshik for extremely early conquests and the Ger all the way to Cavalry makes the Mongols excellent warmongers.

Barracks + Stable + Vassalage + Theocracy = 9 xp, still short of the third promotion unless you are Charismatic. Ger makes that 11, an extra promotion. If your leader is Charismatic, 8 is the third promotion and 13 is the fourth, so the first Great General you get will have you getting four promotions on each brand-new mounted unit at your main troop factory city, and until then you can switch out one of the civics for a more productive one and still have 3 promotions at all your production cities.

With the addition of espionage, I'd rate the Citadel as the worst UB; Jails are no longer gravy, but Castles still suck. Castles just come at the wrong time, and I pretty much never build them. Replacing defensive units with better ones, or building economic buildings, or building something for culture for defense that won't go obsolete, are a better use of hammers than a building that will go obsolete so fast. My games break down into three categories:

* I plan and start an early war. By the time I can build Castles it's over, and I have switched to growth mode to get to gunpowder first.

* I get stuck with an early war I don't want in a game where I was planning to expand first. I've already lost, Castles might delay it, but while I'm holding off the horde in that city with the castle the uninvolved civs are springing ahead in tech and economy.

* I don't get stuck with an early war, and achieve economic dominance on plan. Castles will be obsolete before I start conquering.

So in order to gain benefit from the Mongol UB, you only need 2 additional civics, one of which (theocracy) i would never willingly take because the alternatives at that time (basically anything, but for me it is organized religion) are way better?
Sounds really good to me then

Mongols tend to not be Charismatic, unless you factor in unrestricted leaders, which kind of obsoletes any discussions about effectiveness of buildings, units or civilizations on their own.

So my point is still valid, since withoutout vassalage AND theocracy, the ger is no better than a normal stable.

 

[kniteowl]

Ger??? Well it last until Flight and Genghi is Imperialistic, If you don't get at least 1 GG by the time that building obsoletes you're seriously playing him wrong.

That GG should be able to push you over the threshold to level 4 Mounted units, and if you combine it with Westpoint you'll get some deadly Mounted Units there, level 5 in fact and if you can time it with Military Science that's blitz Cavalry and everything before then would either be combat 4 or march Cavalry.

Not to mention level 5 Agg (Combat 1) Gunpoewder units although you need at least a couple more GGs for that but still it shouldn't be hard with an Imp leader.

 

[Sephlock]

Well if nothing else they'll promote to that next level faster than if you had just a normal stable, no?

 

[Peter Harris]

IIRC You can research the tech which obsoletes the Castle/Citadel before you research the tech which allows you to build them!

 

[Dennis_Moore]

I figured out how to make use of the Obelisk:
*Regenerate map until flood plain start (for early growth and excess personell).
*Build Stonehenge for multiple Obelisks.
*Build Pyramids for Representation.
*Steal a couple of neighbouring cities with your war chariots.
*Bulid a few more wonders, found a couple of religions, kill Shaka , something about Boudicia's jugs....and so on....

 

[KaytieKat]

IIRC You can research the tech which obsoletes the Castle/Citadel before you research the tech which allows you to build them!

Hi

what's even funnier is you can research rifling before you get to economics so you will have a civ that knows how to build a castle but NO idea how to build a wall anymore hehe

Kaytie

 

[Blackluck]

Mausoleum.
I have never built a jail in any Civ IV (Warlords, Bts) game I've played.

 

[onedreamer]

Dislike: Citadel. Castles sound good in theory, but by the time they're enabled, the obsoleting tech is just around the corner.

uh ? It is at least 3 techs away, provided that you beeline for it.

 

[onedreamer]

On the heels of my last game...I'd like to nominate the Mausoleum. How many play Indian civs as warmongers? How often are you going to build Jails in the first place? How valuable is a little more espionage? Ehhh.

Mausoleum.
I have never built a jail in any Civ IV (Warlords, Bts) game I've played.

No wonder people complain that they are overwhelmed by AI espionage missions in BtS. The biggest bonus of Jails now (in BtS) is the espionage one. +4 ep and +50%, that generally doubles the EP generated by cities at that period in the game. The Jail passed from a super-low priority in my book pre-BtS, to one of the top-priority ones with BtS.