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Most useless UB other than Dun

CR3 trebs crunch grens. CR3 cannons (you can get steel without economics) crunch everything. Also, you can upgrade CR3 trebs to cannons. I like to do both. If you need to upgrade them to arty, you didn't build enough in the first place.

CR3 = -75% (total) to opponent base str. A gren becomes a 3. A rifle becomes a 3.5. They are not even the equivalent of longbows against CR3. An infantry becomes a 5.

You can see how 8s and 12s crunch them. You can use archers to get the kills.

IF you are spain and finish engineering, the only thing you should build for a few hundred years are cits and trebs and cannons.

As a quickspeed 3-city conquest player (MP except for strat generation), I find little use for + trade routes.

Unfortunately, the 75% does not come out of base strength, rather it is subtracted from the bonuses the defender has and whatever is left applies to the base strength.

Based on this fact, you've forgotten the 25% bonus that all these defenders have for fortification. Plus, if the city is on a hill (which many AI cities are) that's another 25%. Also, for even an AI to have no upgrades by the time grenadiers are around is almost impossible. Let's take in the most likely situation.

Grenadier (12) + 25% Fortify + 25% On hill + 45%(City defender I & II) - 75% for city raider I/II/III is Grenadier (12) + 20% still left from bonuses = 14.4 vs. a cannon 12.

even worse for Rifleman, and nearly impossible for infantry (16.8 and 24 respectively & after bonuses)

Artillery with CRIII will trump most, but still fall to it's knees at the hands of a city defender marine (as marines receive a +50% bonus vs. artillery)
 
Grenadier (12) + 25% Fortify + 25% On hill + 45%(City defender I & II) - 75% for city raider I/II/III is Grenadier (12) + 20% still left from bonuses = 14.4 vs. a cannon 12.

For the first cannon, yes.
The second one will be at least equal, the third has good chances of winning, and the fourth mows them down.

Never send a single siege unit.
 
of course not, but the post i was responding to stated completely unrealistic statistics taking nothing into effect (IE Cannon with CRIII ends up having 12 vs. 3 against a grenadier!)
 
of course not, but the post i was responding to stated completely unrealistic statistics taking nothing into effect (IE Cannon with CRIII ends up having 12 vs. 3 against a grenadier!)

I wondered why the numbers look strange... You should've just asked him to read Combat Explained over at the War Academy.

The lowest a defending Grenadier's str could go assuming there's absolutely zero defensive bonuses (no culture, no fortify, no hill and promotions) would be...

12/(1+0.75) = 6.86 str vs 12 str... which is Highly unlikely, I dunno why anyone would defend with Grenadiers though, Riflemen make better defenders and possibly a Sleeping Cavalry just in case you're attacked by a Grenadier. lol
 
I personally rate the Ziggurat as one of the most powerful buildings precisely because you get to do something different than any one else.... you get a rein on your economy from considerably earlier - obviously as I play Marathon games this makes a HUGE difference.

I also like Duns for Highland maps, but in a normal game they're nothing special.

Citadels have most proved to be useless in my games, but I like the idea of +exp for artillery! :D

Gardens seem pointless.

Another thing about ziggurats is that like courthouses they generate espionage points. So getting courthouses quite a bit earlier than everyone else also gives a significant head start in esp point generation. Not too shabby.
 
Riflemen make better defenders and possibly a Sleeping Cavalry just in case you're attacked by a Grenadier. lol

The AI will develop grenadiers first unless they are tech leaders. If then invade with grenadiers/rifles and you have rifles guarding cities, you're pretty screwed since grenades get +50% vs rifles.

Also, if you tech straight to cavalry and use them as city defender (which, I believe is a couple techs after rifling) but the AI attacks with that same grenade/rifle stack, you're still screwed since rifles get innate bonus vs. cavalry.
 
I wondered why the numbers look strange... You should've just asked him to read Combat Explained over at the War Academy.

The lowest a defending Grenadier's str could go assuming there's absolutely zero defensive bonuses (no culture, no fortify, no hill and promotions) would be...

12/(1+0.75) = 6.86 str vs 12 str... which is Highly unlikely, I dunno why anyone would defend with Grenadiers though, Riflemen make better defenders and possibly a Sleeping Cavalry just in case you're attacked by a Grenadier. lol

Lack of rifling?
 
Hey... The Dun is an ok UB. It's the synergy with the gaelic warrior that sucks :)
I mean... to get melee units with guerilla promotions can be very good on hill-dominated countryside, and the promotion for free on archers can be very good too.
couple that with Boudica and you get an army of Chuck Norris's
 
Hey... The Dun is an ok UB. It's the synergy with the gaelic warrior that sucks :)
I mean... to get melee units with guerilla promotions can be very good on hill-dominated countryside, and the promotion for free on archers can be very good too.
couple that with Boudica and you get an army of Chuck Norris's


The fact is that it doesn't give the promotion. The building doesn't work like it should.
 
The AI will develop grenadiers first unless they are tech leaders. If then invade with grenadiers/rifles and you have rifles guarding cities, you're pretty screwed since grenades get +50% vs rifles.

Also, if you tech straight to cavalry and use them as city defender (which, I believe is a couple techs after rifling) but the AI attacks with that same grenade/rifle stack, you're still screwed since rifles get innate bonus vs. cavalry.

But doesn't the Computer usually pick the best defender when a unit attacks?

So If the AI attacks with Rifles Then I will defend with Rifles, if the AI attacks with Grenadiers then I Will defend with Cavalry, and my cavalry generally have Combat 1 and Pinch so even a City Raider 2 Grenadier will have problems.

16.5/1.2 = 13.75 str vs 12 str

Pinch should cancel out CR2.

CR3 are quite rare but even then

16.5/1.5= 11 str vs 12 str

I'm at a disadvantage but it better then defending with Rifles, especially when CR3 has a 2nd bonus which is 10% vs Gunpowder the total bonus with an attacking Grenadier vs a Rifle is 135%. Even CG3 Rifles would have problems against them.

14/1.35 = 10.37 str vs 12 str

the CG Promotions and Fortify should cancel out 100% of the Grenadier bonuses against me.

Note I'm making the assumption that my city's culture defense is zero and I'm not on a hill.
 
But doesn't the Computer usually pick the best defender when a unit attacks?

So If the AI attacks with Rifles Then I will defend with Rifles, if the AI attacks with Grenadiers then I Will defend with Cavalry, and my cavalry generally have Combat 1 and Pinch so even a City Raider 2 Grenadier will have problems.

16.5/1.2 = 13.75 str vs 12 str

Pinch should cancel out CR2.

CR3 are quite rare but even then

16.5/1.5= 11 str vs 12 str

I'm at a disadvantage but it better then defending with Rifles, especially when CR3 has a 2nd bonus which is 10% vs Gunpowder the total bonus with an attacking Grenadier vs a Rifle is 135%. Even CG3 Rifles would have problems against them.

14/1.35 = 10.37 str vs 12 str

the CG Promotions and Fortify should cancel out 100% of the Grenadier bonuses against me.

Note I'm making the assumption that my city's culture defense is zero and I'm not on a hill.

I suppose, if you have a decent defense stack IE 2 grenadiers, 2 rifles, 2 cavalry. But considering the fact that the AI always attacks with loads of left over catapults and city raider trebuchet, your defenders will usually be injured to start anyway.

But really, the best defense against any of these units is the machine gun. I love machine guns. I beeline to railroad every game to get these amazing stack/city defenders. They are perfect for invading stacks all the way until industrialization (tanks/marines). Without machine guns, defending rifles are easily defeated by an invader with the same tech level troops.
 
I suppose, if you have a decent defense stack IE 2 grenadiers, 2 rifles, 2 cavalry. But considering the fact that the AI always attacks with loads of left over catapults and city raider trebuchet, your defenders will usually be injured to start anyway.

But really, the best defense against any of these units is the machine gun. I love machine guns. I beeline to railroad every game to get these amazing stack/city defenders. They are perfect for invading stacks all the way until industrialization (tanks/marines). Without machine guns, defending rifles are easily defeated by an invader with the same tech level troops.

lol very true I guess it depends who attacks who 1st, although it easier to fight in my own territory because my units can move easier, if I can cause enough flanking and Collateral Damage I should be able to clean them up... or just beeline to Machine guns like you do. I guess it really depends...
 
MGs will defend your city but not your towns.

Always have hard hitting shock troops (the purpose, not the promotion) at hand.
2 Cavs with combat upgrades in each city should help.
alternatively Cav with +movement.
 
The fact is that it doesn't give the promotion. The building doesn't work like it should.

This has been discussed about in many places, and the fact is that Dun only gives the promotion to units that are eligible to get it through experience. It works just like it should work.
 
:agree: And it's fine for me :)

It's fine for me too!

I don't know if this is the right thread, but I've been thinking about Machine Gun defence strategy as Sitting Bull, which needs avoiding Astronomy and Rifling.

1) Build Barracks and Totem Pole (or use Stonehenge bonus) into cities you want to construct your Machine Guns.

2) Switch to Vassalage and Theocracy and if needed, spread your state religion into your military cities.

3) Now you have 10XP for Archery units as well as Protective trait, so start making Crossbowmen (Longbowmen only upgrade to Riflemen). After a Crossbowman is built, promote it to Drill II and City Garrison III. Then upgrade it with gold to Machine Gun using the Crossbowman -> Grenadier -> Machine Gun upgrade line.

That allows you to have City Garrison -promoted Machine Guns. Without using the strategy your Machine Guns would start with 7XP and no extra promotions, so they could maximally reach two promotions, while the strategy allows five.
 
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