Movement Range Limit

[Il Principe]

I also agree this should be implemented, with possibly an attrition system set in place for going too far away from your borders. It would make things like circumnavigation a la Magellan possible, if rather harrowing.

I just realized: The movement limit should make a huge jump ( maybe by an auto promotion) for ships after "Refrigeration" which definetly allowed for longer journeys without worryieng about spoiled foods.

Some ways to extend your reach could be either techs or buildings: A cannery or packed meat plant would ease up logistics and extend the reach of a city.
Or new ones, maybe wonders:
Sauerkraut
Gives a range extending promotion to all ships. Obsoletes with modern healthcare.
Pedia: Until the British Captain James cook packed Sauerkraut on his ships for long expeditions as a cheap and easy to sotre alternative to fresh fruits, scorbut took heavy toll among naval crews. Nevertheless about a century passed until his method was adopted for the Royal Navy in general.

Existing techs ( Logistics comes to mind, or for earlier times Catograophy ) could give a nation wide bonus.

 

[DRJ]

Also, lemons may help against scorbut for the more southern nations.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Also, lemons may help against scorbut for the more southern nations.

It should be fun to use lemons to fight off "scurvy" when the diseases are applied to the game.

 

[AIAndy]

Though, come to think of it, unless it increases load and decreases performance too much, why not use the Property System for something like this?
Each Nation would have it's own Property that spread from it's Cities (via buildings/wonders/culture level/technologies), Improvements (forts for instance), and Units (some, not all, Great Generals assuredly, and Nomads too).
To enter a plot a certain level of [own] Property is needed with long range units requiring a lower amount and some few (city guard/police units) requiring a higher amount. A very few select units might require no Property at all, think UU's.
And at either a certain Era or Technology the property is disabled or removed and no limits on units moving exist anymore.

Cheers

One option would be to have a supply property, that indirectly limits your movement capabilities.
Supply is generated by terrain, features, improvements and buildings.
It diffuses, but only within cultural borders. It diffuses faster along roads and not only within culture borders. It also diffuses along trade routes. Units can be given orders to block supply diffusion.
Units use up supply, depending on the unit. Units grab supply from the plot they are on, up to their storage limit. They also have an inward diffusion from other units on the same plot, up to their storage limit (averages supply among the units in a plot).
If your supply gets negative, you get malnutrition/malequipped promotions up to starving promotions that weaken you.
Supply train units can be built that apply an inward diffusion to the plot they are on. So if you set them in a chain from your territory, you can keep an army supplied.

Interesting points of such a system:

• You can starve city defenders by blocking trade and supplies from entering the city
• Small armies can be sustained from the land for longer, large armies need elaborate supply chains
• You might want to split up your stack of doom to make it easier to supply, at least you want to try to forage other plots with some units
• Destroy your own supplies and food improvements where the enemy army comes so it cannot sustain itself from your land
• Deserts are more draining to cross than lush, green land which produces at least some natural supplies

Of course it might be somewhat micro heavy and it will not be easy to teach the AI things like that.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Wow! An anti-stack of doom mechanic without enforcing X number of units per tile. This sounds promising!

 

[strategyonly]

Of course it might be somewhat micro heavy and it will not be easy to teach the AI things like that.

All of it sounds great,up to this POINT. Not a good point at all really.

 

[Il Principe]

Oooh Siege warfare... I so look forward to starving defenders and sending fast units to disrupt enemy suplylines..
If the AI can get it

 

[Koshling]

This all sounds interesting enough to justify the work IMO, but I think we need to plan to do it in a full release cycle, and expect it to take that long to get it properly operational. I'm up for doing the AI side if AIAndy is up for the mechanics side. Question is, where does this sit in the priorities relative to other big things like multi-map, nomadic start, possible chnages to religion mechanism, climate/weather, ...?

 

[DRJ]

Question is, where does this sit in the priorities relative to other big things like multi-map, nomadic start, possible chnages to religion mechanism, climate/weather, ...?

It's all equally cool perhaps we as long as we have more ideas than modders to realize them in relatively short periods of time we should have regular votings for priorities in the future?

All modders & lurkers could have the choices listed and have two votes alocating the five choices.

Of course people who like more content in the later ages would vote more easily for that as priority whereas other people trying to give as much layers and content to the earlier ages would vote for this stuff.
But overall, a non-binding vote might show where the C2C team&supporters stand in terms of numbers and wishes. Of course it would not to be binding as when you coders want to work on something, you do it and we lurkers are happy about everything you do^^
just see it as a sketch, a pattern of opinions.

I think inside C2C democracy is really great. If there's a good climate of basic democracy, that's another reason why the participation and possibilities of progress are so huge.

 

[AIAndy]

This all sounds interesting enough to justify the work IMO, but I think we need to plan to do it in a full release cycle, and expect it to take that long to get it properly operational. I'm up for doing the AI side if AIAndy is up for the mechanics side. Question is, where does this sit in the priorities relative to other big things like multi-map, nomadic start, possible chnages to religion mechanism, climate/weather, ...?

I would suggest making a vote and concentrating on one big thing per version.

In regards to the suppy property there are quite some parts of the mechanics in there already that mainly need XML work:
> Supply is generated by terrain, features, improvements and buildings.
All of those can have property supplies attached.

> It diffuses, but only within cultural borders. It diffuses faster along roads and not only within culture borders. It also diffuses along trade routes. Units can be given orders to block supply diffusion.
> They also have an inward diffusion from other units on the same plot, up to their storage limit (averages supply among the units in a plot).
> Supply train units can be built that apply an inward diffusion to the plot they are on. So if you set them in a chain from your territory, you can keep an army supplied.
Two things missing: The ability to have a blocked/not blocked condition on the target objects of a propagator or on the propagator itself (and the ability to apply that for the unit). And an inward diffusion propagator.

> Units use up supply, depending on the unit. Units grab supply from the plot they are on, up to their storage limit.
Only misses a limited gathering operator (there is only an unlimited right now).

> If your supply gets negative, you get malnutrition/malequipped promotions up to starving promotions that weaken you.
Already in, works similar to crime pseudo buildings but instead applies promotions depending on the property.

So in general I'd say most of the mechanics are in place with only some additions needed and then quite some XML work and balancing (and AI of course).

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

> If your supply gets negative, you get malnutrition/malequipped promotions up to starving promotions that weaken you.
Already in, works similar to crime pseudo buildings but instead applies promotions depending on the property.

Which can cause an outbreak of Typhus in your army and near by stacks. I really need to sit down and look at how the property system works - I have a feeling we may have called something different in "my day" and expect to have an "ah ha"moment when it all becomes clear.

 

[strategyonly]

This all sounds interesting enough to justify the work IMO, but I think we need to plan to do it in a full release cycle, and expect it to take that long to get it properly operational. I'm up for doing the AI side if AIAndy is up for the mechanics side. Question is, where does this sit in the priorities relative to other big things like multi-map, nomadic start, possible changes to religion mechanism, climate/weather, ...?

Right now i think its a toss-up between Multi-Mapping and Nomadic Start, i'd personally like to see the multi-mapping 1st though, IMHO.

 

[Il Principe]

Right now i think its a toss-up between Multi-Mapping and Nomadic Start, i'd personally like to see the multi-mapping 1st though, IMHO.

Same for me. And sicne normadic start is already worked on it will probably be rather sooner then later?

The supply lines exite me nearly as muc has the multi maps

 

[DRJ]

Why not set up a vote subforum where some of these and upcoming questions are discussed and there is a period of time (1 week?) before the vote is closed?

Like 'C2C-democracy' or something.

I was always fascinated by the democracy games in civfanatics, never heared of a democracy-mod though (or at least an experiment towards something like that).

Good thing would be that arguements could be transparent and for each decision thread
in the subforum people could have 1 post each to state reasons for their opinion towards the decision. The post should have a length of like 300 characters only or any other length you wish
(I liked more but less would befine with me, too).
People could also vote without statement.

Of course all of this would be unbinding but I guess people like Joseph for instance would like to have their voice heared by this and people like me who write too much anyhow would be a bit more limited in stating 'political' opinions...

The privilege of phrasing the voting questions would of course be the one of the founder of the mod!
Which would mean C2C would be much like a constitutional monarchy at this time.
But lol civics might change^^

 

[hotrodlincoln]

I think it was the Charlemagne mod that had a rudimentary form of the supply train mechanic. They used a "Supply Train" unit that you had to attach to armies marching outside of your territory. Something like that would probably be best to start with, then worry about making it more complex as other big projects get taken care of. As awesome as this is, personally, I would rather see the Nomad system functioning before this happens. That's just me, though.

 

[velosepappe]

Using this kind of supply mechanism you could make a prehistoric gatherer unit that dissipates a lot of the supply on a tile in exchange for food/hammers in the nearest city or nomadic unit.

EDIT: And make pillaging drain a huge amount or completely remove supply. Like scorched earth. Tile improvements could add a constant bonus to supply.

Also you could make it so that you need open borders so you could use supply in foreign lands, or require to be at war with them.

And goody huts to generate a small amount of supply, which would be a good reason not to pillage them.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

And goody huts to generate a small amount of supply, which would be a good reason not to pillage them.

Goody huts will be replaced by goody villages after you explore them. They will be a non-playing somewhat neutral village which you can do diplomacy with, perhaps even set up a terrorist training camp in one in someone else's territory. Other diplomacy options will allow you to assimulate them in some way into your nation if they are in your boarders. The BLWO mod has all sorts of things you can do with them sort of.

 

[Acularius]

I have a suggestion, could we add a coast/ocean terrain feature that represents an 'island' without giving up a tile to it?

The improvements built on it could be a port infrastucture, of sorts? Slowly upgrades like a cottage does. It does not cause terrain damage, and can contribute supply and acts like a fort?

That way, for a map like GEM, I can simulate the islands such as Venice, Malta, Teno(Aztec capital) in the middle of a lake, Prince Edward Islands and Fort Louis, the Sable Islands... all these places.

Just curious if this is a bad idea or not.

Since there is the water goody huts, maybe like the land goody huts, they can transform in 'island' terrain on discovery.

On that same note, unrelated to ports causing supply lines... could a 'natural harbour' for coastal terrain be implement, treat like a fort for movement, and have a port system, in order for island nations, and peninsular nations like England, Japan, and Italy to stay competitive with landlocked nations in terms of production, while also tacking in more commerce and a little bit of food?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have a suggestion, could we add a coast/ocean terrain feature that represents an 'island' without giving up a tile to it?

The improvements built on it could be a port infrastucture, of sorts? Slowly upgrades like a cottage does. It does not cause terrain damage, and can contribute supply and acts like a fort?

That way, for a map like GEM, I can simulate the islands such as Venice, Malta, Teno(Aztec capital) in the middle of a lake, Prince Edward Islands and Fort Louis, the Sable Islands... all these places.

Just curious if this is a bad idea or not.

Since there is the water goody huts, maybe like the land goody huts, they can transform in 'island' terrain on discovery.

On that same note, unrelated to ports causing supply lines... could a 'natural harbour' for coastal terrain be implement, treat like a fort for movement, and have a port system, in order for island nations, and peninsular nations like England, Japan, and Italy to stay competitive with landlocked nations in terms of production, while also tacking in more commerce and a little bit of food?

We would need graphics, always the problem. :sigh: There are mods out there with "natural harbours". I can't remember which and I have not seen how it was done.

I presume these "islands" are drawn on the "coast" plot as land with a strip of sea between it and the coastline. How do sea/land units interact with them? Can bot enter the plot and leave it in any direction?

 

[Acularius]

We would need graphics, always the problem. :sigh: There are mods out there with "natural harbours". I can't remember which and I have not seen how it was done.

I presume these "islands" are drawn on the "coast" plot as land with a strip of sea between it and the coastline. How do sea/land units interact with them? Can bot enter the plot and leave it in any direction?

Islands can be similar to the reefs in the way they treat water units, but to improve them with work boats, and cannot be landed on by land units.
It just kind of occured to me, when I was looking at the map.

The natural harbours, essentially treated like coast, with the port upgrade can be treated like a canal, which would make more sense than using a 'fort', and can get improved in cohesion with the harbour buildings.

I hadn't really thought it all through yet, I just wanted to see if the idea would be acceptable before I fleshed it out.