Moving onto Emperor, help wanted

chumbosity · Feb 28, 2016

Thank you all for the responses. Played up to turn 14, made some pretty important discoveries. First, I moved first warrior onto the gold; nothing else of importance was revealed, so I sent him off eastward. The second warrior I sent off to the southwest to poke at the goodie hut, and I'm hoping that won't end with him getting poked with a bunch of clubs instead.

Over the next couple of turns, we finally found our neighbors, or rather they found me: Isabella and Alexander, the former having founded Buddhism. The last Monarch game I played was with Asoka and featured the Spanish as my closest neighbors, and from the looks of things that is once again the case:

Definitely glad to see we actually have a neighbor we can get to, and by get to I mean consider rushing down. Grabbing the Buddhist holy city would be a boon as well. The screenshot also reveals that, for the most part, the land to the east is pretty crappy too. If we'll want to expand that direction beyond a city or two, we'll have to get through Spain anyway.

Anyways, now onto where the second city should go. I'm still thinking probably 1SE of those pigs, but I've included a few potential dotmaps for where we could place it.

Point A grabs both the pigs and gold before a border pop and gets us on the coast, but grabs five desert tiles that are effectively useless. Point B also picks up the sugar and has fewer useless tiles, but needs a border pop to get any of the resources, which is not really what we want. The sugar is also on a jungle tile so it wouldn't be useful until later. Point C is mostly a consideration for after, and if, we take out Isabella. It grabs both the sugar and a dry corn meaning it has pretty good food, it has a bunch of grassland tiles, and it's on the coast. Again, due to the overlap with the Spanish capital it's not really an option for our second city, but I felt it was worth pointing out.

Overall, of A and B I'd personally go with A. Though it does have more annoying desert tiles, it grabs the important food and commerce resources without a border pop, and leaves C open for a potential city down the line, whereas I feel if we went with B the two sites would have too much overlap. I would like some more thoughts from you guys before I go forward, though.

Also, some pretty bad news: second warrior got mauled by a Lion two tiles off the goodie hut. That area was already revealed by a goodie hut map, so that's eight turns of production completely wasted :sad:

EDIT: Responding to the posts I missed as I was typing this up.

@Pangaea: Okay, I'll accept now that the fishing start probably wasn't the best idea. Thanks for the point about building warriors as well; I imagine that would come in handy if we have copper in the BFC.
@sampsa: We could consider trading the copper away, but I'm not particularly interested in giving the AI a strategic resource like copper just so we won't have it either. If they already have iron then sure I guess, but eh.

Rusten · Feb 28, 2016

Before you commit to rushing down anyone remember that continents is usually a 3/4 player split and you might be on the 3 player one. If you take out one of the AIs without a way of making the other one friendly you will be unable to tech trade until optics. For that reason I'd be very reluctant to rush down Spain. You can get Isabella to friendly with religion, but Alex is more difficult.

chumbosity · Feb 28, 2016

@Rusten: Definitely a good point. If I recall neither of them are that good for tech trading, but Isabella is at least significantly easier to get along with. I'm pretty sure she's also much less of an overall threat than Alexander is.

sampsa · Feb 28, 2016

Some comments:

Capital is mismanaged. You are growing working unimproved tiles to work even more unimproved tiles. You should have used max tiles to get that boat out asap to get at least one good tile. Due to mistakes you are off to a very slow start.
You ignored my advice to prevent jungle growth. Pray that it doesn't happen.
City sites like your suggested B shouldn't even cross your mind. It doesn't have a single good tile on first ring and you are not creative.
Like Rusten pointed out, rushing Isabella is strategically a poor choice. She is very easy to get friendly via religion. After you've made contact to the other continent, she probably has a shrine and is a much juicier target. Or if you find a 3rd AI on this landmass.
On copper trade - obviously the time frame when you consider it is post-monarchy. At that point everyone has IW, and iron is quite common. You can also trade it for just 10 turns. Just a tactic to keep in mind anyway.

dutchfire · Feb 28, 2016

Move A one west to grab the better city tile? Coastal access is not crucial here.

ConfusedCounsel · Feb 28, 2016

Pangaea said:
Just a small point on this. It won't work here if copper pops south of the capital, since it's river and auto-connected, but one way to get around the "can't build warriors any more" issue is to improve the copper (or iron), but not connect it with a road. That way you get the much improved tile yield, but can still build cheap warriors for MP, or HR happiness.

True. You can also trade it away. However, in both circumstances you will be unable to build axeman. Warriors can fogbust, but occasionally you need something a bit firmer to take on stray barbs, especially on a barby map like this and a couple of axeman can be nice.

dutchfire said:
Move A one west to grab the better city tile? Coastal access is not crucial here.

If you are planning on building GLH it is.

I agree with sampsa on the capital part and spot A is the one I would go for.

Rushing Isabella: eh, it is a consideration. She is a religious nutty, so you can easily be friends by being Budhist Buds, but she is a meh trading partner and good land isn't plentiful. I might have a go at it with horse archers if they horse prove to be close.

Pangaea · Feb 28, 2016

Played a shadow for 38 turns, to see how non-Fishing start would work out. 2nd settler out now. Don't read if you want to stay blind, until you've played equally far, as some land is explored, and resources shown.

Spoiler :

I started with worker and Agri, and after a think, continued with BW so I can chop into settlers (or workboats) and improve the forested green hills. Two dead worker turns, but no huge deal. I then chopped into a settler, and then two-popped it, and settled the gold site. As dutchfire mentions above, I was greatly tempted to settle on the PH for a 2-hammer city tile, but eventually settled 1E for coast access, just in case we're going for the GLH. Not sure it was the best choice, but it is what it is.

Initial warrior explored a bit differently to yours, because I spotted ivory up north and wanted to check it out. The warrior then turned SE, while the 2nd warrior went further north and found Alex. Spotted a settler party leaving his crib, and a worker in the outer ring. Since his archer moved towards the soon-to-be 2nd city, I snagged the worker and checked out Athens. Damn!!! Future dream NE site, if you go down the war path (but keep in mind Rusten's wise words about tech trading, which admittedly is a lot easier to get going with Isabella if you just adopt her religion).

Lots of copper around, but none shown in this picture. Another thing, however...

Spoiler :

Of course, this gives us some options :mischief:

As you can see, I'm yet to research Fishing. Simply felt more important to tech AH after BW, since we need it for the gold spot. Now, maybe The Wheel...?

Unfortunately the land around the capital is kinda gunk. Maybe this is just selective memory, but I have often found that when the capital is bulging over with food, the land around it is starved. Desert all over the place in the south (though the coast SE isn't terrible). As mentioned I have a 2nd settler out now, but am not sure where to place the guy.

Have popped 3 huts and all yielded gold (the capital one auto-popped a map), so maybe going so far out won't be as terrible as it usually is, as all that gold will help us with 100% research for a good while.

Spoiler :

Putting it one off coast may not be great, especially if we go for the GLH, but I'm not at all a fan of all those desert hills. There are some other options, but due to that huuuuuge stretch of desert, all decent sites are a bit far out for so early cities. And then jungle to the north and east (and Issy over there). With such a fine resource in our capital, I must admit it's very tempting to get some horsies and pay Alex a visit. He has a great capital, it's not that far away, and there is another horse up in that region that I'd like to deny him. Plus jumbos down the line.

Not met any one else yet, so we're probably alone on the continent with Isabella and Alex. Once you get writing and OB, Isabella's religion should spread one way or another, so getting her to friendly with some "fair" tech trades should be fairly easy in the medium term, allowing tech trades. She's not a fan of Alex, so killing off him shouldn't be an issue in terms of "you waged war on our friend" negative diplo hits.

Hopefully I didn't make too many strange decisions above, and I do think it shows that starting with worker and Agri first would have been better.

Pangaea · Feb 28, 2016

Oh, and just on the point of jungle growth... I was afraid of it as well, especially when jungle spread to the NW of pig, so I parked a warrior on top of the pig to make sure it didn't spread further.

chumbosity · Feb 28, 2016

@sampsa:

I'll fully admit that's definitely a mistake; exactly how I should be managing what tiles a city is working in the early stages isn't something I'm very good with.
I did not ignore your advice, I simply didn't read hard enough and missed it. Whoops!
Alright.
Agreed.
Definitely makes sense to me.

@dutchfire: As others have said, since I'm planning on going for GLH it would be best to make the city coastal.

So current plans: park my warrior down on those pigs and pray jungle doesn't grow on them before I get there, properly manage the capital to get the work boat out faster. Probably go with BW->AH->Sailing->Masonry for tech path? BW is a given since I'm already researching it, AH would be good for the second city we'll be getting out fairly soon, Sailing and Masonry are required for GLH, and Sailing before Masonry so we can get the normal lighthouse early for GLH.

ConfusedCounsel · Feb 28, 2016

Pangaea said:
Played a shadow for 38 turns, to see how non-Fishing start would work out. 2nd settler out now. Don't read if you want to stay blind, until you've played equally far, as some land is explored, and resources shown.

Spoiler :

I started with worker and Agri, and after a think, continued with BW so I can chop into settlers (or workboats) and improve the forested green hills. Two dead worker turns, but no huge deal. I then chopped into a settler, and then two-popped it, and settled the gold site. As dutchfire mentions above, I was greatly tempted to settle on the PH for a 2-hammer city tile, but eventually settled 1E for coast access, just in case we're going for the GLH. Not sure it was the best choice, but it is what it is.

Initial warrior explored a bit differently to yours, because I spotted ivory up north and wanted to check it out. The warrior then turned SE, while the 2nd warrior went further north and found Alex. Spotted a settler party leaving his crib, and a worker in the outer ring. Since his archer moved towards the soon-to-be 2nd city, I snagged the worker and checked out Athens. Damn!!! Future dream NE site, if you go down the war path (but keep in mind Rusten's wise words about tech trading, which admittedly is a lot easier to get going with Isabella if you just adopt her religion).

Lots of copper around, but none shown in this picture. Another thing, however...

Spoiler :

Of course, this gives us some options

As you can see, I'm yet to research Fishing. Simply felt more important to tech AH after BW, since we need it for the gold spot. Now, maybe The Wheel...?

Unfortunately the land around the capital is kinda gunk. Maybe this is just selective memory, but I have often found that when the capital is bulging over with food, the land around it is starved. Desert all over the place in the south (though the coast SE isn't terrible). As mentioned I have a 2nd settler out now, but am not sure where to place the guy.

Have popped 3 huts and all yielded gold (the capital one auto-popped a map), so maybe going so far out won't be as terrible as it usually is, as all that gold will help us with 100% research for a good while.

Spoiler :

Putting it one off coast may not be great, especially if we go for the GLH, but I'm not at all a fan of all those desert hills. There are some other options, but due to that huuuuuge stretch of desert, all decent sites are a bit far out for so early cities. And then jungle to the north and east (and Issy over there). With such a fine resource in our capital, I must admit it's very tempting to get some horsies and pay Alex a visit. He has a great capital, it's not that far away, and there is another horse up in that region that I'd like to deny him. Plus jumbos down the line.

Not met any one else yet, so we're probably alone on the continent with Isabella and Alex. Once you get writing and OB, Isabella's religion should spread one way or another, so getting her to friendly with some "fair" tech trades should be fairly easy in the medium term, allowing tech trades. She's not a fan of Alex, so killing off him shouldn't be an issue in terms of "you waged war on our friend" negative diplo hits.

Hopefully I didn't make too many strange decisions above, and I do think it shows that starting with worker and Agri first would have been better.

Good guy Pangaea shadowing so I won't have too.

Spoiler :

So current plans: park my warrior down on those pigs and pray jungle doesn't grow on them before I get there, properly manage the capital to get the work boat out faster. Probably go with BW->AH->Sailing->Masonry for tech path? BW is a given since I'm already researching it, AH would be good for the second city we'll be getting out fairly soon, Sailing and Masonry are required for GLH, and Sailing before Masonry so we can get the normal lighthouse early for GLH.

Seems reasonable. Get a worker out first so you can chop the settler and improve some tiles.

sampsa · Feb 28, 2016

Nearly always you should get the work boat out as quickly as possible. Sometimes it means whipping, often it means working max amount of :hammers:

possible. Now you should whip a worker @size4, then whip a settler @size4. Probably with the help of 2 chops. Put :hammers:

into a 2nd boat while growing.

Pangaea · Feb 29, 2016

ConfusedCounsel said:
Good guy Pangaea shadowing so I won't have too.

Spoiler :

I think you played it well thus far. I would probably have gone for oracle in stead of glh, so my order would have been different, but this looks good and tight. Also, stealing from a warmonger I can't easily choke is something I can't pull off well, but if you can...

@ConfusedCounsel

Spoiler :

sampsa · Feb 29, 2016

Damn you, Pangaea, you are forcing me to shadow it.

I have played with a calm strategy but sloppy technique up to 1AD. Might report later.

Major Tom · Feb 29, 2016

Just want to reinforce what other says about target. Alex will be a pain in the ass rather soon. Isabella is easy to get friendly. Sharing her religion and perhaps if you can bribe her to go to war with Alex along with you. Her shrine can be captured with curassiers when due. Before that, having her as an ally is a very strong card.

chumbosity · Feb 29, 2016

@samspa: Quick question before I make my move: do you mean WB -> Worker -> WB -> Settler or WB -> WB -> Worker -> ??? -> Settler?

sampsa · Feb 29, 2016

You need to make some queue swapping. I think you should switch to a worker immediately when you reach size 4, whip it next turn. Same with settler. Also the chops should go to settler. You need to invest 40 :hammers:

into it and be size 4 to be able to whip. Hope it's not too confusing.

ConfusedCounsel · Feb 29, 2016

sampsa said:
You need to make some queue swapping. I think you should switch to a worker immediately when you reach size 4, whip it next turn. Same with settler. Also the chops should go to settler. You need to invest 40 into it and be size 4 to be able to whip. Hope it's not too confusing.

I highly recommend this line. In the early turns, once you have slavery, you usually want to grow on warriors/wb and other such stuff, and whip/chop the settlers/workers.

Lexicus · Feb 29, 2016

Drakon136, if you are not aware, 'queue swapping' means adding things to the building queue to invest some hammers, and then adding something else (or more than one other thing) before the first item is finished. Because you don't necessarily add things to the queue in the same order you finish them it can be difficult to articulate this by typing X-->Y-->Z. This is often better than simply building everything sequentially because of the way the whip, overflow, and settler/worker production mechanics work.

ConfusedCounsel said:
I highly recommend this line. In the early turns, once you have slavery, you usually want to grow on warriors/wb and other such stuff, and whip/chop the settlers/workers.

Yup. I'd say the exception is if you've really backed yourself into a corner viz. happiness and need some down-time to let the whip unhappiness expire.

chumbosity · Feb 29, 2016

Thank you for the advice. I finished the first work boat and improved the ocean fish and went to work on the second boat. Once I hit 4 population (same turn BW finished) I paused the boat and went with a worker. I also moved the warrior back onto the pigs near second city spot to prevent jungle growth as I should have done a little while ago.

This is where I'm at right now. As you can probably tell, I'm currently unsure of the tech path. At first I was going to go AH->Sailing->Masonry now that BW is done, but seeing as we unfortunately do not have copper I'm thinking of going AGR->Sailing->Masonry->AH, or perhaps AGR->AH->Sailing->Masonry. This is because, without any copper or the wheel, there's nothing for our worker to do once we get it out. I really don't like training workers if they can't do anything, and I suppose now if I had gone with AGR start I would not be having this issue right now. Any thoughts?

Also, a question: if I recall, leaving something unfinished with hammers still in it causes the hammers to decay after a certain number of turns. If I'm right about this, anyone know when it starts to decay?

sampsa · Feb 29, 2016

start to decay once you haven't put any production towards the item for 10 turns. So nothing to worry.

You are forgetting that the worker can chop, that was the whole point of going BW. You need AH fast to improve pigs. Cap will soon be working both seafood, so maybe corns can wait. Connecting your cities with a road would give you 2 :commerce:

. You also want to connect gold to improve

-cap. There is no hurry with GLH and you should settle 3-4 cities before finishing it.

I guess I'd suggest AH-wheel-agri-sailing-masonry.

Cseanny is the one who should be helping you, he got you into this mess with this delirious idea of going fishing first.

Moving onto Emperor, help wanted

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