MRG's Random Game of Randomness

[Lanzelot]

Speedy recovery!

I guess I'm up then. But we need consensus on what to do next, before I can continue.
The war against Korea is canceled, I guess we agree on that?
Our troops are costing too much money to sit idle, so I will concentrate our galleys somewhere and do a seaborne invasion. But where?

• Spain and Sumer have saltpeter and know Gunpowder --> We'll meet muskets there.
• Byzantium knows Gunpowder, but we can't see, whether they have saltpeter. They'll have a handful of Crusaders.
  On the other hand, they are currently fighting a war with America, which could help us.

All three have at least two luxuries, horses, iron and saltpeter.

And the other important decision: do we break our gpt reputation now and get as many techs as possible towards the industrial age, or keep a clean rep?

 

[Lanzelot]

I don't recall ever seeing an AI settle at CxC spacing from another AI. Do you?

If Portugal founds a town in the desert S-3SE of Sao Mamede, and Sao Mamede gets a culture expansion (which can be expected soon), then all three coastal tiles are in Portuguese territory, and we can no longer settle there. If we want to grab those furs, we need to hurry and shouldn't take any risks. (We have been "too late" for many things in this game already... )

If you're ready to mobilize, then a 17 shield capital using 12 tiles produces 30 shields per turn! That's one turn to get shields into a box, short-rush a granary, and then complete a cavalry on the next turn for 2 turn cavalry!

How do I use a granary for short-rushing, when I'm in mobilization?

 

[Spoonwood]

If Portugal founds a town in the desert S-3SE of Sao Mamede, and Sao Mamede gets a culture expansion (which can be expected soon)

Isn't that location at CxC spacing from a Spanish city?

How do I use a granary for short-rushing, when I'm in mobilization?

Of course, that's impossible, and I wasn't correct on such as a possibility. Definitely a mistake on my part.

20 shields though is easily conceivable without having repaired the mines with rails on other tiles. And also, I think you'd repair the mines and irrigation eventually.

The probability of two scientific friends not getting steam power as their free tech is [(2 / 3) * (2 / 3)] = (4 / 9). So, the probability of at least one of them getting steam power is (5 / 9).

 

[Elephantium]

lurker's comment:

I disagree with this. At least this early. It's 30 turns for a settler at one shield. That's no big deal. There's also a hidden benefit. Playing an AWE pangea 60% map, I've played almost entirely raze and replace. I didn't have settlers to cover territory immediately. So, the AIs would send settlers with some unit protecting it. This has two benefit effects, no make that three.

Nobody expects the Spanish AInquisition! The chief benefit is dividing up their military...and using their population. The two benefits are dividing up their military, using their population...and capturing their settlers. The three benefits are dividing up their military, using their population, and capturing their settlers...and getting gold from capturing rich AI cities. Our four...no...I'll come in again.

 

[Spoonwood]

Nobody expects the Spanish AInquisition! The chief benefit is dividing up their military...and using their population. The two benefits are dividing up their military, using their population...and capturing their settlers. The three benefits are dividing up their military, using their population, and capturing their settlers...and getting gold from capturing rich AI cities. Our four...no...I'll come in again.

Amusing!

Some of the benefits don't come from razing. But, rather from there existing open territory which the AI then tries to settle. Capture and disband can divide their population and military just as well. I guess such division of their military is one thing that has helped low city conquest games get won.

 

[MrRandomGuy]

Keep a clean rep until we have at least secured a few luxuries and one strategic resource we need.

War with Sumer would be complicated. Land troops and they will throw everything the have at us. And it could be a lot of units they have because they haven't been in a war yet and are on their own little slice of land.

Strategically it would make the most sense to go to war with Byzantium. The Americans have already asked us for an alliance against them, but I declined because they didn't have anything of value they were willing to part with. Perhaps America will attempt to get Korea into the war. Or we could even attempt to get Korea in the war. Korea will keep a bare minimum units on our border in that case and throw most of theirs against Byzantium. With Korea on board we won't have to worry about their territory canceling out harbor trades if we were to nab the horse resource.

 

[Lanzelot]

Yep sounds like a good plan.

BTW: does anybody know, whether a war that gets automatically triggered because of a defense pact, destroys the reputation? What I mean by this: suppose I buy techs from Byzantium for gpt. Then I sign a mutual protection pact with America. Byzantium attacks an American unit and that way triggers our DoW on them. Would our rep be broken in that case?
If not, that might be a way to get a few techs for cheap, while at the same time keeping our clean reputation...

I will also look into Spoonwood's suggestion of using the "break the import trade route and blame the other guy" mechanism. I have never used it in my games so far, so would be a nice new tool to add to my arsenal. (In fact, I know it is regularly used in Sid level HOF games, but I'm not quite sure at the moment, whether it counts as an exploit in the GOTM competition. It is pretty similar to Emsworth Agreements, and Emsworth Agreements got banned for the GOTM competition already in 2007: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/explotive-gpt-trade-with-ai.253550/ As I have mainly played GOTM games for the last 15 years, I don't have much experience with these tactics.)

 

[Lanzelot]

Isn't that location at CxC spacing from a Spanish city?

I'm not completely sure about the AI settling patterns, but something like this looks possible to me:

If Sao Mamede then gets its first culture expansion, the remaining two open tiles would then also be blocked.

 

[Spoonwood]

I see now. I think they could settle there.

 

[tjs282]

does anybody know, whether a war that gets automatically triggered because of a defense pact, destroys the reputation? What I mean by this: suppose I buy techs from Byzantium for gpt. Then I sign a mutual protection pact with America. Byzantium attacks an American unit and that way triggers our DoW on them. Would our rep be broken in that case?

Yes.

 

[choxorn]

I like the "ally with america against the Byzantines" plan but don't think we want to break our trade reputation... yet.

If we're temporarily friendly with Korea, we could also sign an ROP with them to scout their territory for future conquest uh... get our troops to the Byzantines by land faster.

 

[MrRandomGuy]

For sure scout Korean territory while we go to war with Byz. We'll need to know where all the cities/lux/resources are

 

[Lanzelot]

Preflight: rearrange some citizens. (Why isn't Erdenet using the Whale? Could be 10spt.) Ta-Tu starts Palace. Wake up most galleys and move them towards northern shore. Switch most military builds to Collosseum as pre-builds for Universities. A few libraries, where more sea tiles would be nice. Kill the damaged Portuguese Longbow at Ch'onfu.

Spoiler Turnlog :

T191, 760AD
America does not want to continue our ROP. For world map and 8g I can sign a new one.
Sign ROP with Korea for world map and 2gpt.
Chemistry is finished. Sell it + 10gpt for Education and incense to Sumeria. Our first luxury, hurray!

Ring up Portugal and make peace + Astronomy for 46gpt. Three techs in one interturn.
As the WH is gone now, I need to increase lux to 40%.

I switch the Harbor in Ch'ongfu to Tempel. This will allow us to steal Korea's saltpeter peacefully...

With a few selected entertainers, I can lower lux to 30% (until food runs out in a few cities). Set science to 0% to collect enough cash for rushing the temple and perhaps upgrade a few Caravels.

Our Armies now scout Korea, while at the same time going towards Byzantium by land, while the rest of the troops will be packed up in landing crafts...
Move some troops and all free workers towards Karakorum for some free techs "Spoonwood style". The Byzantines have a spare iron resource they are willing to sell...

T192, 770AD
Surprise, surprise: Korea offers a mutual protection pact for 5gpt.
It's very nice to have the super power as our friend, but I think we don't want to be dragged into wars that don't fit to our current strategy. And as tjs282 confirmed that wars triggered by an MPP do break our trade rep, I kindly decline...

Disband 2 units in Ch'ongfu and then rush the temple.

Korea does indeed have Cavs:

And the second saltpeter is already connected.

Lux needs to be raised to 40% again.

T193, 780AD


T194, 790AD
Our colonist sets sail towards the furs hunting grounds. The Caravel cannot yet quite get there, but the missing techs will come in while they are on their way.

Everything is ready for our big scam. So I lower lux to 0%, ring up Theodora and offer this deal:

Pillage all tiles around the capital, repair one tile and check, whether she wants to do it again...

Two free techs in one turn... Wish I had more workers at hand...

Unfortunately Byzantium doesn't yet know Magnetism. But as we can get stuff for free, I might as well "buy" Navigation, then we can also ship those furs home.

And unfortunately, this also broke our incense deal with Sumer...

Let's check, whether I can renew that as well. But they no longer want to?!

For 22gpt they would now be willing to sell. Or I could give them a tech, but if we pull the same scam with Theodora again next turn, I will just have gifted Sumer a free tech...

The Pentagon gets delayed by a turn, but other than that, the damage is indeed not that bad. I skip repairing the roads on the other tiles, then it's easier to do the same trick again next turn.

T195, 800AD
This time I buy Navigation and Banking. They have Military Tradition, but are not willing to sell it for all our gpt, even if I hire lots of taxmen in the corrupt towns

TBC...

 

[MrRandomGuy]

Library has 3 cpt whereas temple has 2. A library would have been a better choice to nab the salt even though it's more expensive.

 

[Spoonwood]

Let's check, whether I can renew that as well. But they no longer want to?!

Above you wrote:

Chemistry is finished. Sell it + 10gpt for Education and incense to Sumeria.

So, Chemistry had a value of at least 12 gpt to Sumeria I suppose.

They have Military Tradition, but are not willing to sell it for all our gpt, even if I hire lots of taxmen in the corrupt towns

Do they have an gpt? Or does Sumeria still have any gpt?

For a somewhat similar example I found a recent save of mine (on Sid), and I can't get Invention currently from the Ottomans:

Spoiler :

Maybe I could fiddle with tax collectors, but still it seems unlikely that would help in this case.

But at least Korea has some gpt:

Spoiler :

9 gpt is the best I can get:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

and the best deal is:

Spoiler :

I don't think I'd take Korea's gpt in this instance without luxury access (and it's still kind of early).

And I would guess that you have an AI aggression level which makes the exchange rate different for your game. But, if one of your trading partners gets gpt, then that gpt can likely help obtain a technology. In your game, if Sumeria had a few banks, they probably would have more gpt. I feel a bit surprised that Sumeria even had gpt being so far behind, though I guess the date is late enough that they could at this level, and Sumeria isn't a civ that focuses on unit building, and is agricultural.

The C3X mod enables finding the best deal for deals like this in less time. There's an autofill that really helps.

I also haven't considered doing some research for some tech, and then buying the last part of the research. That's not something I can really doing before. That would require less gpt.

 

[Lanzelot]

Library has 3 cpt whereas temple has 2. A library would have been a better choice to nab the salt even though it's more expensive.

For nabbing the saltpeter tile itself, probably a temple plus library plus cathedral would be necessary... And it may take forever, as Chonju has collected culture forever. (Had already it's second expansion, so must have 100+ culture, and still growing.) Competing against that would be too expensive and take too long.
My plan was different: the tile south-west of the saltpeter is distance 3 from Chonju, but only distance 2 from Ch'onfu, so 10 culture are sufficient to get it, and then I can plant a town on that tile, for which the saltpeter tile will only be distance 1... (You'll see what I mean next turn.)

 

[MrRandomGuy]

I see what you mean now! Good thinking!

 

[Lanzelot]

196, 810AD
This time I manage to buy Theodora's gold plus Economics, and with a lump sum of 230g in addition to our gpt, we are finally getting "close to a deal".
Will collect cash for one more turn and hope the deal will work next turn.

For now I buy Printing Press and her territory map. (Note: Theodora does not have saltpeter!)

BTW: good we did not declare on Korea, meanwhile I have seen lots of Cavalry, they have at least 10. This picture alone shows 6 Cavs in northern Korea:

Our world map is meanwhile good enough to buy Sumer's territory map, but unfortunately no luck with America, Egypt, Spain and Portugal. (But we have a ROP with America, so I can scout there too.)

T197, 820AD
Ch'ongfu has its first culture expansion, and we can now found a town next to the saltpeter. Saltpeter connected!
After buying MT, I will collect a bit more cash for upgrading at least 3-4 muskets, and then our Armada can set sail.

We can now confirm, that Byzantium does not import saltpeter from someone else!

Meanwhile they also know Magnetism, but are still not willing to sell that or MT. If we throw in our saltpeter, they would make either deal, but then we would break our resource trade rep...

T198, 830AD:
KK completes the Pentagon. Start University.

On the American-Byzantine front there seem to be quite some battles going on...

It's about time we help our American friends...

Buy Music Theory and Theodora's gold (52g). Still no luck with MT or Magnetism. It's strange: she is willing to sell MT alone for 120gpt, but the price for iron alone has grown to 185gpt. We used to get iron + a tech for a bit over 200gpt a couple of turns ago?! I don't see any way to get to 305gpt, unless we disband like 20 units. But then how do we wage a successful war? Perhaps now the time has come to kiss our trade rep goodbye?

I don't think we can wait much longer, because Byzantium is one tech away from entering the industrial age, and if they get Nationalism as well (or trade their freebee with Korea) it'll be Riflemen instead of Pikemen...

Stopping here for one more round of discussions... I think we should buy MT and Magnetism now (or rather once we are ready to disembark on the Byzantine beaches) from Byzantium for gpt, then declare war and make a big dent in the Byzantine empire, while they only have pikes and are still at war with America. (We can even still sign an MPP with Korea, and once a Byzantine unit enters our territory, we'll have Korea on our side as well...) I feel this window of opportunity is quickly closing.

Or we disband all our spearmen, try again to get MT and Magnetism and build a few muskets from scratch. But even that would then take a while, before we can get our invasion going. (And I think we need a few muskets as cover for the armies: if Cavs attack def-1 Armies, Crusaders at attack-5 might also do it...)

After we burned our trade rep, we can then research Gravity ourselves (first Universities are about to get finished) and enter the IA.

Current save attached.

 

[Lanzelot]

PS: our military is weak compared to almost everyone, but "average" compared to Byzantium and "strong" compared to America. The opportunity is indeed there. Byzantium has gems, spices, horses and iron. Together with the soon-to-be-connected furs and then incense for a tech from Sumer, we would be at 4 luxes and all the resources we need for Keshiks (Golden Age! It's about time...), Cavalry and railways. (Well, we still need to find out, where the coal is.)

 

[Spoonwood]

We used to get iron + a tech for a bit over 200gpt a couple of turns ago?! I

Wasn't that before you learned Metallurgy? I remember discovering increases in price, and reasoning that changes in what your cities could build or train might change things. Since cannons require saltpeter and iron, that hypothesis implies that the cost of iron would increase. It might only be for units. I really don't know about iron or coal increasing if you learn Industrialization.

Too low says our advisor:

Best deal possible:

I don't know if 18 more gpt would enable you to get Military Tradition on the next turn. Usually on a turn I first, if possible, make an exchange like that, if possible, and then I will give them gpt for gold + technology + maps, etc. On the next turn, I have more gpt and have a greater probability of purchasing a tech. Also, like any gpt deal, those deals last twenty turns, so you might snag more gpt from another AI before then to easily get more technology. That peace treaty with Egypt is only 8 more turns.

Korea is making 242 gpt right now:

Note the change what the advisor tells us:

With the peace treaty length with Egypt expiring, you could probably then safely declare on Egypt ... I think it needs to be a turn AFTER it's been 20 turns. Then sign Korea against Egypt to end that mutual protection pact.

Korea's trading partners:

Portugal would take longer. The RoP with America also is 12 turns. Spain or Sumeria might work better. Then with an alliance with Korea against Spain or Sumeria, Korea should have some luxury you can purchase. Then you can get their gpt.

Though, the Byzantines might pop with even more gpt before then, if say they go industrial here and sell the tech to Korea. If so, then with some gold in the bank, you could get their gpt, then trade for iron and gold. Then on the next turn, you can probably purchase more technology, since you'll have more gpt.

WOW! You actually put workers in every square around your capital to reroad it. I don't recall going that far (and the unit support cost suggests to me that re-roading every tile isn't worth it... until later). I usually just make mines or irrigation and forget about roads, except in the one spot where pillaging takes place. Though, maybe you don't have much else for workers to do right now.

I STILL do not advise busting your trading reputation.