Muslims want to worship in Cordoba Cathedral.

[GenMarshall]

From this thread, and many others, I have learned that it is truly impossible to discuss or reason with religious people on matters of religion.

Uuuuuuuughhhhh. Harsh reality.

As do I find that its impossible to reason with fundamentalist Religious in manners of religion. And yet the paradox is that I am a Religious person .

 

[Katheryn]

From this thread, and many others, I have learned that it is truly impossible to discuss or reason with religious people on matters of religion.

Uuuuuuuughhhhh. Harsh reality.

Well, if they have had religious experiences, if they feel they have known and walked with God for many years, then probably, no. You are not going to be able to "reason" them out of what they believe.

I wouldn't think you would want to.

That is pretty much the basis of religion, you believe or you don't. why would you want to "discuss or realson with religious people on matters of religion"?

What is there to discuss if they have already checked all the bases, and are ready to run with what they have discovered to be true?

 

[Katheryn]

As do I find that its impossible to reason with fundamentalist Religious in manners of religion. And yet the paradox is that I am a Religious person .

Well, you are certainly not going to talk me into the idea that I worship the evil Mohammed's god. He is truly awful. And Mohammed's example is truly untenable. No thank you.

Instead, I will believe in a Jesus Christ. "Amazing love, how can it be? That you my King, should die for me? Amazing love, I know it's true, it's my joy to honor you, in all I do, to honor you."

Jesus, who gives all things, forgives all things, brings hope, love, joy and peace. That is what I believe. And after 20 years, I can promise it is true.
He has brought all those things.

 

[GenMarshall]

Well, you are certainly not going to talk me into the idea that I worship the evil Mohammed's god. He is truly awful. And Mohammed's example is truly untenable. No thank you.

Whether or not you believe, you are worshiping the same God that Muslims and Jews worship. There is nothing wrong with thinking outside the box and outside the safety of your own Religion.

Instead, I will believe in a Jesus Christ. "Amazing love, how can it be? That you my King, should die for me? Amazing love, I know it's true, it's my joy to honor you, in all I do, to honor you."

Jesus, who gives all things, forgives all things, brings hope, love, joy and peace. That is what I believe. And after 20 years, I can promise it is true.
He has brought all those things.

As do I, believe that Jesus is an human incarnation of God. But I also accepted the fact that I also worship the same God that Jews and Muslims worship.

 

[CaptainF]

Well, if they have had religious experiences, if they feel they have known and walked with God for many years, then probably, no. You are not going to be able to "reason" them out of what they believe.

Thats for sure.

I wouldn't think you would want to.

Sometimes it piques my interest. I am a believer in the divine, if not in god itself.

That is pretty much the basis of religion, you believe or you don't. why would you want to "discuss or realson with religious people on matters of religion"?

Religion interests me on an intellectual level.

What is there to discuss if they have already checked all the bases, and are ready to run with what they have discovered to be true?

I'd wager that most religious people haven't really "checked all the bases". All the religious people I know were either raised on said religion or just kinda chose something that is the dominant religion in their nation/culture/society.

 

[knigh+]

The Koran tells Muslims to kill Christians and Jews.

No it doesn't, and nothing in chapter 9 suggests otherwise. The word "unbeliever" is never used for a christian, so the best you could argue is Quran tells Muslims to struggle against (nowhere it says kill, except your sick insertions in the form of paranthesis). Sorry but I simply know it better than you.

Jesus fulfilled the Law and made it obsolete, He did not confirm it. The Law is not to be our guide, and a good 50% of the New Testament is devoted to denying this. That is what the "Gospel" is, according to Christians. Tell me, what do Muslims think the "Gospel" that Jesus declared was? To be bound to the Jewish law is not 'good news' to me.

So you are saying Jews are to Christians what Christians are to Muslims? Ok, if you say so...

We do not believe in Allah. That should be plain.

Allah literally means "The God" in Arabic. (al = the ; ilah = god,deity etc.) Which means the "Father" you talk about. So now you are claiming you don't believe in the God now. If you continue like this even Jesus won't be able to save you...

29:46 - And dispute ye not with the People of the Book (Jews & Christians), except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

I don't really understand these sentences, except you are told not to debate your religion with Christians. I'm not sure what "with means better than mere disputation" means.

"Disputation" is what I have been doing with you. "means better than disputation" is intelligent conversation or advice. "means worse than disputation" is violence, which hereby Quran blatantly bans to be done to Christians, except when they "inflict wrong".

Well, unfortunately, facts tell us a different story. Christians are being killed all over the world by Muslims. In Indonesia, in Egypt, in Palestine, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, just for being Christians.

In accordance to my previous paragraph, those fanatic killers, so called muslims that you keep advertising to kill christians for no reason, are obviously acting out of true Islam.

It is supposedly channelled from God to Mohammed, but it is a system of belief that can only be practiced in the 8th century.

God>Gabriel>Mohammed would be the correct channel.
And I don't see why it can only be in 8th century (no I am not trying to point out that Mohammed's prophecy was in the early 7th century)? I see nothing that directly contradicts modern life. (indirect opposition exists, such as inacceptance of gays, acceptance of whom is not a prerequisite for a modern society, but exists in most modern societies nevertheless. But then christianity doesn't look kindly upon gays either)

Massive scriptures, like the one I posted, in the Koran teach conquering and superiority.

Only your (and Taliban, Al Qaeda etc.) sick interpretation does that actually.

Christianity doesn't teach such principles. You can love the sinner and hate the sin.

Quran says (I am in the office now so I don't have one with me, so I cant give the exact verse number) if muslims capture unbelievers in battle, not to kill them. Free them if they either convert, or teach how to read to some muslims, or work to feed some poor people. Ok, it doesn't say go hug you enemy as Jesus would, but I think it is still compassionate even by today's standards.

That is not minor. Christians do not follow the Ten Commandments.

That's new. So you christians worship other gods, make whongful use of God's name, don't honor your parents, murder at will, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, covet neighbor's posessions, etc?

That is Jewish. Genesis has been changed by Muslims to say that it is Ishmael instead of Isaac, so no, we do NOT Genesis in common.

by Genesis I meant Adam&Eve story, not the entire book of Genesis. Nevertheless, the difference you point out is the only different event between book of Genesis and Quran.

Muslims have also changed the Old Testament to say that these men were Muslims, which they were not.

Muslim=One who surrenders (in this case, to God)
Therefore they were literally, but not terminologically muslims.

Isaac was the son that Abraham nearly killed, not Ishmael.

That has no importance whatsoever. The moral of that story is Abraham's giving up his son for God. I am sad that's lost on you.

Moses received the Ten Commandments on Mt. Sinai, not in Saudi Arabia.

Yes, so says Quran.

The Apocalypse story is completely different between the Muslims and the Christians.

Homework: go look for "completely" in the dictionary

We both believe Jesus will return, defeat Antichrist, lead believers to salvation. We both believe there will be a judgement day, on which all humans ever lived will be judged. We both believe Raphael will sound the horn a bunch of times (the exact number of times is different between Quran and Bible).

We do not believe in a Dajjal.

Dajjal is the name muslims give to the Anti-christ, so you do believe in that.

We do not believe that Jesus will return and fight with the Mahdi. We believe the Mahdi could be the Antichrist, in fact.

you totally pulled that out of thin air. Bible doesn't say anything about Mahdi. Even Quran says very little about Mahdi.

We would never agree that Jesus, when He returns, will tell us that we were mistaken, that the disciples lied and stole his body, and told us all a ficticious story about his dying on the cross for our sins.

you are entitled to disagree with anything. keep in mind that what you said is a form of salvation.

We don't believe that He will destroy all the crosses on our churches.

Quran doesn't say that either.

We don't believe that He will tell us all to become Muslims.

Quran doesn't say that. If you weren't a believer (a subset of muslims, christians, jews) by then, you are screwd anyway

We do not believe that Jesus Christ will reign for 40 years, but forever.

Quran doesn't say that. There are some hadiths (which are not as reliable) that says so about Mahdi, not Jesus. Jesus will return, kick gog&magog butt, kick antichrist butt, save people, then pop goes the apocalypse.

We do not agree about heaven and hell. Christians do not know a great deal about it and do not speculate very much.

neither do we.

But we do know that Muslims say they will have a sex orgy with 72 virgins if they die in jihad.

So far I have heard that statement only from American media. Quran doesn't say that. It says in different, unrelated parts
- martyrs go to heaven
- to be a martyr you must die in your path to God (which, as we already established, does not involve killing christians. This also means die of old age in the path to understand and be enlightened by God)
- in heaven there may be rivers, meadows, virgins (in overall, whatever makes you believers happy)

Some crazy Imam, not unlike you, joining these to make suicide bombers, is not Quran's fault.

Christians believe that there will be no sex in the afterlife, as Jesus told us.

There is no mentioning of sex in the afterlife in any part of Quran.

The barbarism of the crusades were a reaction to 400 years of conquest by the Muslims of the known world. By the time the Crusades started, which kicked the aggressive Muslims out of Europe, they had conquered and sacked many of the most sophisticated cities of Europe, like Rome, including the residence of the Pope, Vienna, Pisa, Damascus, Cyprus, Constantinople, Marseille, Malta, Iraq, Egypt, Jerusalem, Antioch, Persia and make inroads into India.

You just earned the title of ignorant. Please study history and geography before giving historical examples.

Before and during the crusades, the only Muslim conquest in Europe was Spain. And none of the crusades touched it. Half of the places you mentioned aren't even in Europe. Muslims never conquered Rome, Vienna, Pisa, Marseille (and probably Malta, but I'm not sure). And the only conquerors and sackers of Constantinople during the crusades were the Crusaders of the 4th crusade.

The Jesus you love is not the Jesus of the Christians. He is a completely different person. His name is Isa, and he is not the Begotten of the Father that Christians have worshipped as God for 2,000 years.

That, again, is your disillusionment. Jesus we revere is the son born by Virgin Mary. He spoke in his first days. He came as the Messiah to Jews. By God's grace, he cured blind people, raised from dead. He was betrayed by one of his followers. In the end God ascended Jesus to himself. He will return in before the Judgement Day.

If your Jesus is different, that's your problem. What's important is his teaching of love, not his divine or prophetic status.

I do not hate Muslims. I do not like the basis of their religion. As you can see in this thread, they took characters of the Bible, like Ishmael and Jesus, and completely reinvented them. That is just wrong. If they wanted to start a new religion, they should create their own characters instead of stealing them from another group, and changing them so it benefits them.

That's exactly what Muslims think about Christians, as far as our few differences about Abraham, Ismael, Jesus and Muhammad. According to Quran, Christians made many mistakes and deviations from the truth when they rewrote the Bible (in the council of Nicea in 325), as a result of which God sent the newest edition of the book to correct the Christians (I often say the three books are Old Testament, New Testament, Final Testament - Quran). And, we agree on all the rest of the bunch (Adam, Noah, Lot, Elijah, Jacob, Joseph, Zacharias, Jonah, John the baptiste, Solomon, David, and others I might be forgetting).

Christians are fine to exist along with Muslims. It is the Muslims that are killing the Christians.

No, those you label muslims are poor uneducated people who never even had the opportunity to read their holy book, but instead were brainwashed by some manipulative peoples claim of what Quran is supposed to mean. These people do exactly what you did in post #96, entwining their hatred into Quran and misguiding their followers to the dark side...wait this is not star wars

Sidhe, that is bizarre. The original manuscripts exists, some you can see online! Nobody has changed them!

?...You don't even know your own religion's history?

Today's Bibles were written by Matthew, Marcus, Luke and John in during the council of Nicea in 325 AD.

Which is FINE, just don't misrepresent it to people who don't know to inquire deeper into who this "Jesus" is. It is not the Jesus of the Bible.

I never said he is the Jesus of Bible. I said he is Jesus, son of Virgin Mary.

Allah is a totally different God than the God of the Christians. All you have to do is read the Bible to find that out.

If it were the God as described in the Bible there wouldn't be two separate religions. We both believe in God, creator, and in the end we will return to him. His exact nature, who stands by his side, etc. are just the specifics.

Allah told Mohammed that the disciples LIED about Jesus dying on the cross.

Where did you invent that. According to Quran, they couldn't have known about Jesus not dying, so they couldn't have lied. God made it appear as if Jesus died, to save him from suffering (biggest prank of all time ). Then God took him "upstairs". Mary Magdelena might have seen him in between, resulting in the story of resurrection.

Islam diverges a great deal at that point of Abraham. Islam says that the child of promise was Ishmael, not Isaac. Then, they carry down their lineage from there. They say that Abraham favored Hagar, and lived with her and Ishmael. That it was Ishmael that was nearly sacrificed, not Isaac. They say that Moses gave the Ten Commandments to the Arabs, not the Jews. The stories of the Jews are all taken and Arabs substituted in.

Ismael, Isaac, who cares? In Quran both have prophet status.
Moses gave 10com. to believers. Quran never says "Arabs" it always says muslims, believers, people of the book, etc. I think the only people that are mentioned at all are Jews and Romans.

They say that the Bible was 'corrupted'....there is a copy of the Book of Isaiah, which had been hidden away in about 100 BC

"The Bible" always refers to only the New Testament. What you mention is Old Testament, which is always referred to as "Torah" (and the Law in a few places)

God told Mohammed that He has no Son. Therefore, it cannot be the same God, can it?

Sure can. If Jesus was not his son but people thought he was.

Which then, is God unfair or just a liar?

Neither, from the muslim point of view. It is humans that are error-prone.

1) God mistakenly told Mohammed that He has no Son.
2) God told Mohammed that He has a Son and Mohammed lied.
3) God didn't talk to Mohammed at all.
4) God told Mohammed that He has no Son and God lied.
5) God told Mohammed the He has no Son and God was mistaken (forgot?)

6) Early christians turned story of Jesus into story of Hercules to gain popularity among the polytheistic Roman Empire. Otherwise, compared to the soap opera pantheon of Romans, monotheism is plain boring.

Jesus said that he was the Son of God. He was the only begotten of the Father. Jesus said that He was God. That is why he was condemned to death. For blasphemy. For claiming He was God.

in Quran God just gets angry at Jesus about this, Jesus says he didn't, the people labeled him so. Predictably continues "please God, forgive their misguidance". God forgives Jesus, and they live (or exist, or whatever God does) happily ever after. God will think about "thier misguidance" on the Judgement Day.

Modern archeology has proven that the true bible is not "lost".

It also brings about other gospels excluded from the official Bible, which was edited 300 years after Jesus.

If that is true, then how can Christians be OK, if no one died for their sins? They are in a great deal of trouble! Their religion is bankrupt without it.

So you expect to get a freebie into heaven? You are supposed to be good, love people and God, live decently honestly, and gain entrance. You can't gain a freebie because Jesus got crucified (even if he did, that is) 2000 years ago. That would be ridiculously simplistic and unjust for an omnipotent God.

Actually, the most important tenet is that Jesus died for the sins of the world. If God really didn't do that, as God supposedly told Mohammed, if the Christian message is wrong, then all these people are still in sin and will never make it to heaven.

Well God also told Mohammed a baby starts with a blank record, no original sin, no baptism etc. So if your good deeds outweigh bad deeds, regardless of what happened to Jesus, you go to heaven.

Another tenet is that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, and Paul tells us several times that if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then Christians are to be pitied among all men, our hope is in vain.

He doesn't have to have died and rose to be around after crucifixion.

What we CAN do is be sure that all MUST respect one another. That really can be done, it really, really can!

People can disagree agreeably. There is nothing in the Christian religion that says their ways must be imposed on anyone. It says, "share the gospel" and if someone says no, then you say "thank you very much for listening" and carry on.

That was the last thing I expected to hear from you. And that is not because it is a verse from Quran almost word-by-word.

You really need to use the "preview post" button more often. Because constantly trying to convince muslims that they are infidels/murderers/terrorists etc. doesn't have the tiniest speck of respect in it. Thinking "would I be offended if a Muslim was saying this about Christians" would be a good idea for you.

I mean if half of your messages go like

Well, you are certainly not going to talk me into the idea that I worship the evil Mohammed's god. He is truly awful. And Mohammed's example is truly untenable. No thank you.

how can you claim to be respecting muslim beliefs?

My family says "no thank you" all the time to me. I don't curse them or harm them, I still love them as I always have. They are agnostic, they are happy that way, I just carry on...

I am sorry to hear that. I have many friends who are agnostics or worse, atheists. And this makes me sad, so I can empathize to some extent, but of course it is more severe if they are your family. Still, don't let their lack of faith polarize you into extremism.

Islam needs to reform so that they don't believe that they have the right to kill or harm anyone who doesn't agree with them. Yes, most Muslims do this, but not when they get serious about Islam. When they get 'religious' then they become confrontational. That needs to be torn out of the Koran. If that can be done, these religions can coexist.

The problem is not Quran, it is people. Overall education level in the muslim world has to increase. I am hopeful that eventually some Taliban's kid will connect to the pure, unvilified version of Quran on the internet, and figure out that he is not supposed to mindlessly kill christians, or do weird things to women. But I'm not sure if it'll be in our lifetime.

Second problem is, there is no authority Islam like Pope. So the only way to reform Islam is piece by piece. Although this wasn't the reason for it, US and UN operation of Afghanistan was a nice example of this. Last decade Iran almost broke free of the Molla oppression, but with the American hostility they regained power. I am hoping soon the Islamic revolution will be reversed on its own. So your job then is to realize different nations interpret Quran differently (Quran says: this book is given to you so that you can read and understand it), and not to generalize evil acts of some crazy people and their misguided followerd to all muslims. Because if you generalize, you'll just be upsetting the majority of muslims who don't hate christians.

 

[GenMarshall]

I'd wager that most religious people haven't really "checked all the bases". All the religious people I know were either raised on said religion or just kinda chose something that is the dominant religion in their nation/culture/society.

If I may ask, what do you mean by "Checked all the bases?" .

 

[knigh+]

And for Christ's sake, condense your posts. You do know that you can type in the quote tags and copy and paste multiple replies into one post right? That way you don't have to clog up a thread with four consecutive replies.

OK then...

Last time I checked, Muslims only consider Jesus as one of their prophets.

One of the most important. Ruhullah (Soul of God). The only one who will return and save the believers. (Believer stands for all monotheists throughout Quran. If it is only about muslims, then they are called muslims. Even then as the literal meaning of "muslim" is those who surrender (to God), it can be interpreted as all monotheists

I am not going to bow to one God and then go ahead and bow to one more.
Yep,i just did.There you go,i am outside of the Christian common-sense.So help me God.

Don't worry, you can always convert to Islam

Allah = Jewish God Yaweh or something like that.

and Christian God (father)...but He is not a father. And He is not even described as a "He", some languages do not have gender.

I don't understand whom you consider a Muslim. I think a Muslim is someone who calls themselves a Muslim and follows the teachings of the Koran + respected Hadith. What is your definition?

If I considered myself a sheep, make sheep like sounds, even go eat grass, would that make me a real sheep?



Not everyone who call themselves Muslims necessarily follow the teachings of Quran and Hadith. Actually, my apologies, I was kind of on the roll, I shouldn't have made such a statement about Wahhabis and Iranian Mollas, only God knows whose way is the proper way. All we can do is behave according to what we understand to be the proper way.

Monotheism - if you don't worship your monotheistic god then you are by definition an idolator and therefore by definition evil.

No, that is an infidel, not evil. Evil is one who deliberately harms (physically, psychologicaly, whateverly) other creations of God. Evil is one who gives in to temptations of the Devil, which are the seven sins. Well, my definition at least. I don't consider Katheryn to be evil. Her past experiences led her to her current opinions and beliefs. I don't even consider her a definite sinner or infidel. As in islam, only God's can judge whether one is a sinner or not.

Reading the Koran 7 times is impressive - it's a long document!

I have it in audio, and have a long commute to drive. That is why I said "went through". I also have a searchable/indexable/translatable CD version, that's a real convenience.

We worship the same God, we just believe he did and said different things.

Best sentence on this subject so far.

What I dont understand in all this debate is why Katheryn's views are being challenged in an almost reflexive manner. Christinanity is anti Islam and Islam is anti Chrisitan. If you are going to be a member of either religion then how can you have any other position. Both Chrisitanity and Islam are very clear about what is the true word of God. They cant both be right. You could argue that Islam became necessary because people ruined Jesus' message and God needed a new approach. If someone is going to be a Chrisitian then there is no point in being half hearted. It isnt a buffet religion. Do it properly in and be a fundimental Chrisitan or dont bother. Same goes for Islam.

Christianity and Islam overlap more than any other pair of religions. And Islam considers itself as the sequel to Christianity, Quran being the final and clarifying book of the holy trilogy. That's why Muslims can easily accept the existance of Christianity. For (many) Muslims, Christianity is the sister religion. For some Christians, Muslims are infidels. I am really curious - but not willing to see - how much the two will converge before Jesus returns.

 

[CaptainF]

If I may ask, what do you mean by "Checked all the bases?" .

Looked at, known about all the options before choosing to join a religion.

 

[GenMarshall]

Looked at, known about all the options before choosing to join a religion.

Ok, then I am good since I have "Checked all the bases" before joining a religion (After I rediscovered God of course) .

 

[aneeshm]

And what proof do you have that a building thousands of miles away from india, never having a dominating hindu culture or religion, is a holy temple of hinduism?

I agree muslims destroying your temple in india is bad. But Hindus claiming Kaaba is plain ridiculous.

I didn't claim the building. I said that it was a place which also had a Shiva idol, and which Hindus used to go to as a spot of pilgrimage.

 

[Katheryn]

Whether or not you believe, you are worshiping the same God that Muslims and Jews worship. There is nothing wrong with thinking outside the box and outside the safety of your own Religion.


As do I, believe that Jesus is an human incarnation of God. But I also accepted the fact that I also worship the same God that Jews and Muslims worship.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Do you not understand that for it to be the same "God" there would have to be just a smitgen of congruity? Some similarity? There is no similarity between the Muslim God and the Christian God. The Christian God is a TRINITY, and this Muslims call blasphemous. The Christian God became human flesh and died on the cross, and this Muslims also call blasphemous. Muslims would never agree to worship the man who was the human incarnation of God. Ask a Muslim.

Look, you really need to read what they believe. There are plenty of websites that give the basics.

http://www.islamreview.com/cgi-bin/guestbook/guestbook.cgi?start_number=310

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/

http://www.islamfortoday.com/polygamy1.htm

Islamic concept of God
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It has been suggested that this article or section be merged into Tawhid.

Conceptions of God
Christian
Islamic
Hindu
Buddhist
Sikh
Bahá'í
Mormon


See also: Allah

The Islamic religion possesses one God, whom is called Allah|الله. The Islamic belief is that Allah is the "only creator and master of the universe". The main fundamental creed of Islam is "There is none worthy of worship except Allah, and Muhammad is His Messenger." This is often translated as, "There is no god except Allah," however "Allah" is the Arabic word for "the God".

Contents
1 God's Attributes
2 God's omniscience
3 Prohibition of Idolatry and polytheism
4 See also
5 Notes
6 External links
7 Bibliography



God's Attributes
Islam



History of Islam

Beliefs and practices
Oneness of God
Profession of Faith
Prayer • Fasting
Charity • Pilgrimage

Major figures
Muhammad
Household of Muhammad
Prophets of Islam
Companions of Muhammad


Texts and laws
Qur'an • Sunnah • Hadith
Fiqh • Sharia • Theology


Major branches
Sunni • Shi'a

Societal aspects
Academics • History
Philosophy • Science
Art • Architecture
Calendar • Holidays • Women
Leaders • Politics • Islamism

See also
Vocabulary of Islam



Muslims consider God to be:

One and Only
Has No Son, Nor Father
Has No Partners
Omnipotent
Omniscient
Most Gracious
Most Merciful
Forgiver
The Lord
The Lord of all of the heavens and the earth
Listens to the prayers of His servants
Seer
All Hearing
All Seeing
The Almighty
The All Wise
All Best Names Belongs to Him
The Qur'an describes God in Chapter (Sura) 112:

1. Say: He is Allah, the One;

2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

4. And there is none like unto Him.
[17:110] Say: "Call upon Allah, or call upon Rahmanᮺ by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Neither speak thy Prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course between."

[20:8] Allah. there is no god but He! To Him belong the most Beautiful Names.


[edit] God's omniscience
The Qur'an describes God as being fully aware of everything that happens in the universe, including private thoughts and feelings:

[6:60] It is He who doth take your souls by night, and hath knowledge of all that ye have done by day: by day doth He raise you up again; that a term appointed be fulfilled; In the end unto Him will be your return; then will He show you the truth of all that ye did.

An example of Allāh written in simple Arabic calligraphyThe Qur'an states that the proclamation of faith (Arabic: Shahaada) is: "There is no god except Allah" (Arabic: Laa ilaaha illa Allaah)

[2:255] Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).

[3:18] There is no god but He: That is the witness of Allah, His angels, and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise.

[47:19] Know, therefore, that there is no god but Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy fault, and for the men and women who believe: for Allah knows how ye move about and how ye dwell in your homes.

[2:163] Your Ilah (God) is one Ilah (God- Allah); there is none who has the right to be worshipped but He), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

[3:62] Verily ! This is the true narrative(about the story of Isa/Jesus), and Laa ilaaha illallaah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah, the One and the Only True God, Who has neither a wife nor a son). And indeed, Allah is the All Mighty, the All Wise

[4:87] Allah! Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He).Surely, He will gather you together on the Day of Resurrection about which there is no doubt. And who is truer in statement than Allah?


[edit] Prohibition of Idolatry and polytheism
No one is to be worshipped but the LORD GOD. If any one worships any other than Him, he is surely a polytheist. The missions of all the prophets were turning around the center of the unity of worship. This is frequently mentioned in the Holy QURAN and all the scriptures. It's remarkable that Muslims have to repeat in our daily prayers as a slogan that: [1:5]"You alone We worship, and only Your aid We seek."[1]

[10:105] "And further (thus): set thy face towards Religion with true piety, and never in any wise be of the Unbelievers;

[30:30] So set thou thy face truly to the religion being upright; the nature in which Allah has made mankind: no change (there is) in the work (wrought) by Allah: that is the true Religion: but most among mankind know not.

[5:73] They disbelieved who say: Allah is one of three (in a Trinity): for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous chastisement will befall the disbelievers among them.

[6:101] Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.

[6:102] That is Allah, your Lord! there is no god but He, the Creator of all things: then worship ye Him: and He hath power to dispose of all affairs.

The God in Islam can never be seen by the physical eyes; because the object of seeing by the eyes is a material body that has to have place, colour, form and direction. These are all the qualifications of the creatures, and not that of the creator. Therefore the belief that one may physically see God in this life is a sort of polytheism, and going astray in this field.[2]

[6:103]: "No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is Subtle well-aware (of all things)."

[6:104] "Now have come to you, from your Lord, proofs (to open your eyes): if any will see, it will be for (the good of) his own soul; if any will be blind, it will be to his own (harm): I am not (here) to watch over your doings."

[6:105] Thus do We explain the Signs by various (ways): that they may say, "Thou hast learnt this (from somebody)," and that We may make the matter clear to those who know.

[6:106] Follow what thou art taught by inspiration from thy Lord: there is no god but He: and turn aside from those who join gods with Allah.


[edit] See also
Termagant - Christian name for Allah
God
99 Names of Allah
Conceptions of God
Existence of Allah
Allah
Monotheism
Tawhid

[edit] Notes
^ [1]
^ [2]

[edit] External links
Allah's 99 Names, their Meanings and related audio at www.SearchTruth.com
Allah's Names and Attributes in the Qur'an
Who is Allah?

[edit] Bibliography
Al-Bayhaqi, (1999), "Allah's Names and Attributes", Publisher:ISCA, ISBN 1-930409-03-6, [3]
Hulusi,Ahmed, (????), ""Allah" as introduced by Mohammed" , ISBN 975-7557-41-2 [4]
Muhaiyaddeen,M. R. Bawa, (1976), "Asma'ul Husna - The 99 Beautiful Names of Allah: The 99 Beautiful Names of Allah", Publisher:The Bawa Muhaiyaddeen Fellowship, ISBN 0-914390-13-9 [5]
Netton,Ian Richard (1994), "Allah Transcendent: Studies in the Structure and Semiotics of Islamic Philosophy, Theology and...", Publisher:Routledge , ISBN 0-7007-0287-3 [6]
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_concept_of_God"
Categories: Articles to be merged since December 2006 | All pages needing to be wikified | Wikify from October 2006 | Cleanup from October 2006 | All pages needing cleanup | Allah | Aqidah | Qur'an | God | Conceptions of God

As you can see, denial about the Sonship of Jesus Christ is paramount in Islam. It is repeated again and again. Muslims must proclaim there is no son ten times per day. The Muslim has been commanded by GOD to do so.

 

[Katheryn]

Quote:
What is there to discuss if they have already checked all the bases, and are ready to run with what they have discovered to be true?

I'd wager that most religious people haven't really "checked all the bases". All the religious people I know were either raised on said religion or just kinda chose something that is the dominant religion in their nation/culture/society.


=======================

My Dawgfood, there comes a point in everyone's life where they have to choose. Many here are at that place. They are saying, 'yes' or 'no'. They are held accountable for their beliefs at some point. I think you are closing you eyes to what really happens. You can read about it here, there are plenty of rebels to their "dominant" culture.

 

[GenMarshall]

That makes absolutely no sense.

It absolutely makes sense to me that Judaism, Islam, and Christianity share the same God.

Do you not understand that for it to be the same "God" there would have to be just a smitgen of congruity? Some similarity? There is no similarity between the Muslim God and the Christian God.

Sorry to burst your enclosed boxed bubble, but The Muslim God and the Christian God are the same thing. Its also the same God that Jews worship as well, hense the term "Abrahamic God".

The Christian God is a TRINITY, and this Muslims call blasphemous.

I am not talking about Trinidarianism here. Plus not all Christian Denominations has the Trinity. Look at the JWs and the Mormons, they dont believe in the concept of the Trinity but yet believe in the Abrahamic God and believe Jesus is their savior.

The Christian God became human flesh and died on the cross, and this Muslims also call blasphemous. Muslims would never agree to worship the man who was the human incarnation of God. Ask a Muslim.

That I know that the human incarnation of God (In laymans terms "Human incarnation" means became human flesh), which is Jesus, died on the cross for the sin of humanity. Also dont forget that Muslims dont believe that Jesus was cruified.

Look, you really need to read what they believe. There are plenty of websites that give the basics.

I know quite well what Muslim believes in.

As you can see, denial about the Sonship of Jesus Christ is paramount in Islam. It is repeated again and again. Muslims must proclaim there is no son ten times per day. The Muslim has been commanded by GOD to do so.

I don't see it as denial of the divinity of Jesus Christ. Its their viewpoint not to accept Jesus as the son of God and his crucifixion. They simply dont accept it, much like I dont accept the Book of Mormon, The Koran, or any other holy text.

 

[Katheryn]

I just posted the Chapter 9 of the Koran. It says exactly that.... about Christians.

Quote:

The Koran tells Muslims to kill Christians and Jews.

No it doesn't, and nothing in chapter 9 suggests otherwise. The word "unbeliever" is never used for a christian, so the best you could argue is Quran tells Muslims to struggle against (nowhere it says kill, except your sick insertions in the form of paranthesis). Sorry but I simply know it better than you.

Here it is:


9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. Fight against Christians and Jews "until they pay the tribute (the Dhimmi) readily, being brought low." [/B]

9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

9:31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

9:32 Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse.

9:33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.

9:34 O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom, Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to the rich and greedy Christian monks and Jewish rabbis.

9:35 On the day when it will (all) be heated in the fire of hell, and their foreheads and their flanks and their backs will be branded therewith (and it will be said unto them): Here is that which ye hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what ye used to hoard

==========================
Right there, in verse 29, Muslims are called to FIGHT AGAINST CHRISTIANS solely because the do not believe in Mohammed.

Also, in verse 30, and in verse 32, that Christians disbelieve. They are disbelievers. And it also says that disbelievers have a very bad fate, do they not?

 

[knigh+]

Katheryn, I went all the trouble of #206 for you

And your #215 doesn't say what you claim it says.

 

[GenMarshall]

And the Old Testament (and the Jewish Torah) book Leviticus says that we should stone sinners and kill homosexuals. Your point?

It just seems to me that what you quoted from the Koran is just things that extremists Muslims only focus on, much like the extremists Christians do the same with Leviticus.

 

[Katheryn]

It absolutely makes sense to me that Judaism, Islam, and Christianity share the same God.


Sorry to burst your enclosed boxed bubble, but The Muslim God and the Christian God are the same thing. Its also the same God that Jews worship as well, hense the term "Abrahamic God".


I am not talking about Trinidarianism here. Plus not all Christian Denominations has the Trinity. Look at the JWs and the Mormons, they dont believe in the concept of the Trinity but yet believe in the Abrahamic God and believe Jesus is their savior.

You have been deceived. They do NOT believe Jesus is their Savior. The do not believe in a savior. ASK A MUSLIM. They will tell you there is no such thing as anyone paying the price for someone else's sin.

That I know that the human incarnation of God (In laymans terms "Human incarnation" means became human flesh), which is Jesus, died on the cross for the sin of humanity. Also dont forget that Muslims dont believe that Jesus was cruified.


I know quite well what Muslim believes in.


I don't see it as denial of the divinity of Jesus Christ. Its their viewpoint not to accept Jesus as the son of God and his crucifixion. They simply dont accept it, much like I dont accept the Book of Mormon, The Koran, or any other holy text.

Did you read what I just posted, directly from the Koran? They do deny the divinity of Jesus Christ. They say it is absolutely blasphemous to worship anyone but Allah.

It doesn't take much research to find out what they truly believe. You have not been given the truth. I'm sorry, but that is just the facts. They do NOT believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and say so over and over again.

 

[Katheryn]

Katheryn, I went all the trouble of #206 for you

And your #215 doesn't say what you claim it says.

Well, I don't see why you deny it, but perhaps if you truly believe that, you could cut and paste what it 'really' says.

 

[Katheryn]

And the Old Testament (and the Jewish Torah) book Leviticus says that we should stone sinners and kill homosexuals. Your point?

It just seems to me that what you quoted from the Koran is just things that extremists Muslims only focus on, much like the extremists Christians do the same with Leviticus.

That might be a pertinent question for a Jewish person, but Paul says that the Law is OBSOLETE. I wish that the Muslims' law were also called OBSOLETE, but alas, it is not. Unfortunately for you and me!