My 100k HOF target

[Marsden]

Trouble with the Iroquois is no cheap culture buildings.

But there's only one building that actually costs more, the cathedral.
The Temples' cost doesn't count assuming we're using the TOA.
Libraries are the same unless you take the Sumerian, the cathedral is cheaper if you're Celtic, and the Gallic is a good unit but expensive, libraries the same and you get a more economical Mounted Warrior, and the (very) slight benefit of the commercial trait. Actually, just having alphabet to start is helpful going for writing and the republic slingshot. The ICS and the fuedalism kills off the corruption reduction, but it doesn't matter much because you don't get much gold from a city that's been whipped down to 1 or 2 anyway.

 

[RFHolloway]

I feel you need one cheap culture. The advantage of the library at 40 is that you can rush it easily sooner. You often run into problems when you are at 40 shields and need to get your pop to 4 as you don't have a 60 short rush candidate until gunpowder. (No graneries as you have the pyramids, harbour only works if you are coastal) This would make the library rush quicker, and for 160, you have some adequate steps at 40 gaps - barracks (40), courthouse(80), colluseum(120).

There is also several hidden pop rush benefits with agri - you have settler at 30, aqua at 50 and if you want knight at 70 and also a 1 pop unhappy city is still growing.

Iroq might work, probably only at the higher levels though where you need to expand through force early. As a side issue, if you are not relegious you may want to skip republic. You know that you will want to end up feudal, and 2 lots of anarchy may be a change too much. go straight for phil, take Maps, then research lit, trade for most of the rest. Depends on how fast you can clear the AA though. Anarchy isn't too bad as you can still move your settlers into position and grow, and your workers still do some work.

Oh yes I won't be giving up the ToA anytime soon. I now realise that there are 3 wonders that are seriously beneficial for a 100k game - anyone work out what the 3rd one is it took me a while as I thought that tech was the one that would obsolete the ToA, but no I can get that as well!

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I assume you mean Sistine Chapel, for happiness?

 

[RFHolloway]

Yes - boy does that take the sting out of the whipping - not an essential build, but definitely a good one for comfort.

 

[Marsden]

I blundered on to that one, too. Actually, I blundered onto the necessity of gunpowder that same game, too.

 

[RFHolloway]

Just ressurecting this thread to remind me of my notes of 3 years ago

 

[Spoonwood]

Since you've resurrected this, and there's plenty of 100k ideas by others here, I hope this isn't clutter.

Remember that you want Gunpowder and saltpeter so that you can use muskets for short-rushing.

I haven't played a 100k anywhere other than Chieftain, but even there I realized that I could whip my towns into unhappiness (I think with 4 or 5 luxuries) so that they can't grow due to unhappiness even with a very high luxury slider rate. *If* you go with the ToA, and *if* you can get an extra SGL for The Oracle or The Sistine Chapel, how valuable are they? Whipping settlers, and everything else would I think come as easier to execute. Utility of an extra SGL suggests Sumeria or Babylon as potentially more powerful than the HoF tables lead us to believe.

Also, how valuable is getting two SGLs (both Pyramids and ToA for one-turn's production) instead of just one in the ancient age, or one SGL instead of none?

 

[Pacioli]

Thanks for reviving this thread RFHolloway. Plenty of interesting 100k discussion in this thread.

 

[RFHolloway]

Since you've resurrected this, and there's plenty of 100k ideas by others here, I hope this isn't clutter.

Remember that you want Gunpowder and saltpeter so that you can use muskets for short-rushing.

I haven't played a 100k anywhere other than Chieftain, but even there I realized that I could whip my towns into unhappiness (I think with 4 or 5 luxuries) so that they can't grow due to unhappiness even with a very high luxury slider rate. *If* you go with the ToA, and *if* you can get an extra SGL for The Oracle or The Sistine Chapel, how valuable are they? Whipping settlers, and everything else would I think come as easier to execute. Utility of an extra SGL suggests Sumeria or Babylon as potentially more powerful than the HoF tables lead us to believe.

Also, how valuable is getting two SGLs (both Pyramids and ToA for one-turn's production) instead of just one in the ancient age, or one SGL instead of none?

Not clutter - I am 120 turns in to a Tiny chief - won't break 200 turns, probably won't break 210. but a good warm up.

One SGL in the ancient age is essential - for pyramids. Any thing else is a restart.

The ToA can be handbuilt, but costs 30 to 40 turns. at that time you might have 15 to 20 cities so that will cost you about 1200 to 1500 culture directly, plus the opportunity cost of what else you can do with 500 shields. That is probably equivalent to 5 settlers by the end of the period, which might turn into 10 to 15 by the end of the game so that is probably the same again. Thats probably 2-3 turns on a tiny map, 1-2 on a huge one.

Scientific will generate more SGL's than others, but that just means you have to be patient with the non scientific ones. Yes you can whip yourself into oblivion, but with an agri civ, you just change your only citizen into a taxman, and build workers. You have 3$PT, and a 10 turn worker pump, whereas a non agri civ only has the 3$PT. That and the fact that Agri irrigated desert is 2F1S makes a whip economy much easier to manage (you never want any corrupt city to be working a 1F tile - 2F you don't mind either way, and the 3+F need to be worked constantly.

Oracle isn't really worth it - 1 won't last long under the whip. Sistines is worth going for on the other hand (at least on larger games) as happiness isn't usually an issue until you have whiped the cathedral. probably won't save you a whole turn though.

Other things that are more important and will save more than a couple of turns
a) a second or third settler factory
b) the time taken for the settlers to reach the new land
c) not getting sneak attacked

There may be a secondary rush path using settler and aqueduct and knight for dry cities. 10 shield in the bin to start while growing, 10 shields at the end while growing.

 

[Spoonwood]

Scientific will generate more SGL's than others, but that just means you have to be patient with the non scientific ones.

For the initial SGL, yes. That's a few more maps to play on average. But, I was thinking more in terms of getting a *second* or *third* SGL. You can't really tell if you'll get that until you've researched almost all your techs, or at least a fair number of them. Throwing away a game after that many turns of play, in my opinion, is much different than throwing away a game that didn't get an SGL on the first tech.

You have 3$PT, and a 10 turn worker pump, whereas a non agri civ only has the 3$PT.

By 3$PT, do you mean 3 gold per turn? Thanks for the tip on using a taxman and then training a worker once whipped into unhappiness.

 

[del62]

AFAIC the Celts are a long way ahead, roll the dice till you get the pyramids for masonry, you will use an early city with good shields for TOA, get to republic and build markets in core cities, cash rush settlers and workers, build oracle and zeus if you can, you will get advantage of ac to disband and discourage sneak attacks. When you are ready, over 150 cities at least on a standard map swithc to feudalism, and get whipping.

 

[RFHolloway]

I generally play as the Celts and pursue both the Pyramids and ToA with one being built by a SGL. My normal tech line is Masonry-Mysticism-Polytheism. In most cases, if I do not get a SGL from learning one of these three, I'll roll another start. I'll choose only non-Industrial and non-Religious civs as opponents to give myself the best possible chance at a SGL on all three.

This got me thinking about the initial set up. I previously put the industrial Civ's in, traded for masonry, and teched straight for the republic slingshot. On my current game I put arabia and germany in, reasearched masonry first and then went for the slingshot. If I don't get a SGL by republic (6 techs) then I restart.

Q1 Who would your opponents be for a tiny map at a comfortable difficulty level.

Q2 My settings are arid, 5m years, large Pangea, and warm - anybody doing anything different?

Q3 Goody huts on or off?

 

[RFHolloway]

AFAIC the Celts are a long way ahead, roll the dice till you get the pyramids for masonry, you will use an early city with good shields for TOA, get to republic and build markets in core cities, cash rush settlers and workers, build oracle and zeus if you can, you will get advantage of ac to disband and discourage sneak attacks. When you are ready, over 150 cities at least on a standard map swithc to feudalism, and get whipping.

Wouldn't bother with oracle, but Zeus is an excellent call. You also need to finesse the timing of the feudalism tech a bit. It might be better to save the cash for a mass upgrade of warriors to celtic swords to go and take advantage of the settlers all the other civs have been making, rather than cash rushing your own. Once you get feudalism you can't upgrade to celtic swords, only med inf.

 

[del62]

Who would your opponents be for a tiny map at a comfortable difficulty level.

Civs with alphabet, probably scientific civs.

Q2 My settings are arid, 5m years, large Pangea, and warm - anybody doing anything different?

With Agricultural dryier isnt such a bad thing, as you have less jungle to clear

Q3 Goody huts on or off?

My feeling is that unless you use expansionised they get in the way (I have thought of trying a cultural 100K with Russians and the modern age with a very fast tech rate on a huge map)

 

[del62]

Wouldn't bother with oracle, but Zeus is an excellent call. You also need to finesse the timing of the feudalism tech a bit. It might be better to save the cash for a mass upgrade of warriors to celtic swords to go and take advantage of the settlers all the other civs have been making, rather than cash rushing your own. Once you get feudalism you can't upgrade to celtic swords, only med inf.

You dont need to go oracle to early, but if you develop your core cities with markets, you wont want to shrink these cities so I think oracle and hanging gardens both help with happiness, these should be behind the more important wonders but definately help.

On the lower levels you are better building your own settlers and workers as the AI wont produce many for you, and cash rushing settlers allows you to build settlers close to where you want to place them.

 

[Pacioli]

Q1 Who would your opponents be for a tiny map at a comfortable difficulty level.

Q2 My settings are arid, 5m years, large Pangea, and warm - anybody doing anything different?

Q3 Goody huts on or off?

1. For tiny maps, usually the Mongols and Zululand.

2. Wet, 5m years, 60% Pangea, and warm. I'm undecided if I like wet or normal best. Wet produces better food potential IMHO but jungles and marshes can really slow one down.

3. Goody huts off.

 

[CKS]

Q2 My settings are arid, 5m years, large Pangea, and warm - anybody doing anything different?

Q3 Goody huts on or off?

If you are playing at a low level, I'd avoid arid, as I'd be trying to get the AI to build some cities for me, and they need all the help they can get.

At low levels, scientific AI and huts can get you to feudalism really fast. With a food-rich start, I don't bother with republic. It isn't like I'm going to be researching significantly in the MA anyway, so the commerce bonus isn't worth that much. I'll spend my money on upgrades and building maintenance, rather than cash rushing.

 

[Spoonwood]

Q1 Who would your opponents be for a tiny map at a comfortable difficulty level.

Q2 My settings are arid, 5m years, large Pangea, and warm - anybody doing anything different?

Q3 Goody huts on or off?

Q2: 5 million, 60% pangea. Does arid decrease the number of grassland tiles? I don't recall. If it does, I'd definitely go with something wetter.

 

[RFHolloway]

Q1 don't like zulu's - move 2 impi's are a pain - mongols might be better they aren't going to see kercheks until its all over.

q2 I hate jungle and marsh, and don't mind the desert, perhaps normal might be better than arid - at least until a level where I want to keep the AI in check.

Q3 I think perhaps goody huts off - we need all the SGL chances we can get, but an early settler or even worker can make quite a bit of difference.

 

[Pacioli]

With a food-rich start, I don't bother with republic. It isn't like I'm going to be researching significantly in the MA anyway, so the commerce bonus isn't worth that much. I'll spend my money on upgrades and building maintenance, rather than cash rushing.

Agreed. I try to get the Republic slingshot in most of my 100k games. But if I'm not the first one there, I do not research it and just wait for Feudalism to change governments.