My attempt to make a tutorial for struggling Regent players
- Thread starter vmxa
- Start date
*shakes head*
VMXA aka Klackon Lord,
I read your whole comment, so don't think I've chopped up your comments here.
I agree that Regent requires no special strategy.
[QUTOE] I think my real point is that you have to keep expanding, regardless of any other factors to thrive. This is what new players do not do. [/QUOTE]
No, you don't... at least not always. Have you ever played on an OCC game? What about tried to go for a fast 20k game? I recently played a 20k Deity game... which you can read about here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=296795... I don't want to post a save, because that might break HOF protocol, I founded my first city in 3250 BC, my third in 1675 BC and all the others after 1000 BC. I did pump out a settler right away, but my second city build curraghs and workers to develop my capital as soon as I could. Did I make a bad choice? Well, check the link. For *most* games people seem to play expansion makes a whole lot of sense. But remember, even if you don't play variants, the 20k game plays better a whole lot differently.
Do you mean on Sid? I know on a Deity standard pangea 60% water I can get out a lot more.
[I cannot afford to go to size 12 for a long time as the unhappiness would counterfeit the size.]
How many luxuries do you have hooked up? Do you have a marketplace with multiple luxuries? What sorts of happiness buildings do you have (I know... you don't build culture)? There exist conditions where this make sense. Granted, you may not have as many troops this way, but what victory condition do you strive for? Larger cities mean faster research. So, if you want to win diplomatically or spaceship wise, doesn't that make sense? Or if you want to win by conquest, but don't want to war until cavalry or replaceable parts or tanks for whatever reason, wouldn't doing something like this make sense? Do what you want, play as you want VMXA, but newbies would get better served by a consideration that you wanted a conquest victory.
The capital functions as the settler factory. Later it turns into a worker pump. That's how I play. Unless I've really missed something it *can't* flip... under any conditions (if you lose it, and then get it back, it's no longer your capital). Also, if you get attacked, it won't get attacked first (almost always) since it usually has at least one ring of cities around it (maybe not on Sid... but surely on Regent).
I guess you can always go and whack the AI to win by any condition, so in the end you have a good idea about picking your victory condition for newbies VMXA. Just kill everyone off but one who you trim down to 1 city and you can then fairly easily pick your victory condition. But, where's the fun in that? I mean... after all... it's a universal solution to civ game problems (like mathematical problems... oh wait). It sounds almost as unitelligent as AI behavior... though of course it does have its uses.
VMXA aka Klackon Lord,
I read your whole comment, so don't think I've chopped up your comments here.
I agree that Regent requires no special strategy.
[QUTOE] I think my real point is that you have to keep expanding, regardless of any other factors to thrive. This is what new players do not do. [/QUOTE]
No, you don't... at least not always. Have you ever played on an OCC game? What about tried to go for a fast 20k game? I recently played a 20k Deity game... which you can read about here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=296795... I don't want to post a save, because that might break HOF protocol, I founded my first city in 3250 BC, my third in 1675 BC and all the others after 1000 BC. I did pump out a settler right away, but my second city build curraghs and workers to develop my capital as soon as I could. Did I make a bad choice? Well, check the link. For *most* games people seem to play expansion makes a whole lot of sense. But remember, even if you don't play variants, the 20k game plays better a whole lot differently.
Do you mean on Sid? I know on a Deity standard pangea 60% water I can get out a lot more.
[I cannot afford to go to size 12 for a long time as the unhappiness would counterfeit the size.]
How many luxuries do you have hooked up? Do you have a marketplace with multiple luxuries? What sorts of happiness buildings do you have (I know... you don't build culture)? There exist conditions where this make sense. Granted, you may not have as many troops this way, but what victory condition do you strive for? Larger cities mean faster research. So, if you want to win diplomatically or spaceship wise, doesn't that make sense? Or if you want to win by conquest, but don't want to war until cavalry or replaceable parts or tanks for whatever reason, wouldn't doing something like this make sense? Do what you want, play as you want VMXA, but newbies would get better served by a consideration that you wanted a conquest victory.
The capital functions as the settler factory. Later it turns into a worker pump. That's how I play. Unless I've really missed something it *can't* flip... under any conditions (if you lose it, and then get it back, it's no longer your capital). Also, if you get attacked, it won't get attacked first (almost always) since it usually has at least one ring of cities around it (maybe not on Sid... but surely on Regent).
I guess you can always go and whack the AI to win by any condition, so in the end you have a good idea about picking your victory condition for newbies VMXA. Just kill everyone off but one who you trim down to 1 city and you can then fairly easily pick your victory condition. But, where's the fun in that? I mean... after all... it's a universal solution to civ game problems (like mathematical problems... oh wait). It sounds almost as unitelligent as AI behavior... though of course it does have its uses.
Why are we talking about OCC, this is for new players. Let me just agree you can play a lot of ways, that is why the I state the is one way and not the perfect way. If you want to create your tutorial for another way, be my guest.
HoF game are just special maps, usually generated with Mapfinder. This is not what new players do. New players are not going to be able to handle relations and trades to the degree need for deity.
As to lux, with a random map on std, you may well have no lux for some time or one if things are good. Markets, they are a long ways off as I though we were talking about making an early granary or not.
Waiting never makes sense to me, but that is another story. Faster research is done by larger empires. This was not about conquest, if it was I would have ended the game in the middle ages. It was about showing these players that the game is easy and they can do it. No need to have any great experience, just some simple managing of the empire.
Now the one real miss communication by one of us is this talk about the capitol flipping. Surely you understood I was talking about the towns being made from the settlers coming from the pump? Look I don't care how you play, I did not write this for you. Nothing is wrong with what you do, it is not going to help new players, they are not at that skill level yet.
This is an attempt to help them to win, by any means, so they enjoy the game. Then they can try to do other things. So pardon me for not wanting to continue to fill the thread with things that are better placed elsewhere.
HoF game are just special maps, usually generated with Mapfinder. This is not what new players do. New players are not going to be able to handle relations and trades to the degree need for deity.
As to lux, with a random map on std, you may well have no lux for some time or one if things are good. Markets, they are a long ways off as I though we were talking about making an early granary or not.
Waiting never makes sense to me, but that is another story. Faster research is done by larger empires. This was not about conquest, if it was I would have ended the game in the middle ages. It was about showing these players that the game is easy and they can do it. No need to have any great experience, just some simple managing of the empire.
Now the one real miss communication by one of us is this talk about the capitol flipping. Surely you understood I was talking about the towns being made from the settlers coming from the pump? Look I don't care how you play, I did not write this for you. Nothing is wrong with what you do, it is not going to help new players, they are not at that skill level yet.
This is an attempt to help them to win, by any means, so they enjoy the game. Then they can try to do other things. So pardon me for not wanting to continue to fill the thread with things that are better placed elsewhere.
Rodent
Carnage
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2008
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- 892
Would you Care to analyse this save? I played this at Regent just for fun.
The one Question you will ask is why I am building Colosseums, I know why you should'nt build them, but I didnt intend to war and the map didnt have too many lux
The Golden Age was Triggered by the Pyramids and the Mausoleum, or so I think
The one Question you will ask is why I am building Colosseums, I know why you should'nt build them, but I didnt intend to war and the map didnt have too many lux
The Golden Age was Triggered by the Pyramids and the Mausoleum, or so I think
True, but you need a very good start location. Not one you would expect to get with just the first game you roll. You need very skillful interactions with the AI on all levels. Not something I would expect struggling Warlord/Regent players to have.
The only reason I mention higher levels at times, is so they will be warned that what may work at that point in this game, may not work at other points or other games.
I know that is mostly understood, but I wanted to not presume it was known to all.
Will do, yes I am opposed to colosseums, in all but special cases. That is for non culture win attempts. That is a different story. There are often exceptions to general rules, hence the name general. Rules of Thumb and general rules have value, but they were meant to be guides only.
Rodent things look good. I don't spend a lot of time sweating placement, but one thing that may be of value is to have squeezed in another town on the starting river and Konya on that river.
This could be done by planting Izmil one tile close and then a new town next to the mountain on the river. Konya could go on the river. It really should have gone on the river with no extra town.
These things will not hurt at this level, but in a tough game, could matter. I know many like to get the extra tiles for the capitol, but it can have plenty of tiles. Rivers are very good as you know, but especially good for the early towns.
The biggest thing that jumps out at you is of course, support cost. 100gpt on a 700gpt empire, this during a GA. Once the GA ends, you will have a problem. You have 50 units over support.
You only have 4 cities, the rest are towns and here is one more reason I prefer CxxC. You would have quite a few more towns for support. So you want to consider getting more towns down and getting some to cities.
Konya should have been out on the hill as long as you did not squeeze in another town.
It would then be on the river, so no aqua to build, the tile it sits on would get more food. Konya will need a harbor now as well, until rails. So you are making two extra structures and having to pay the maint.
The war is a problem as you have no intel on the lovely, but dangerous lady. You are in a GA and running 30% taxes and still only net 2gpt.
Consider switching Bingol from temple to aqua. Need the support. Then a harbor to get more pop and commerce. I tend to not build many harbors, but it will pay off, I think. Once rails go up, you could consider selling it.
I am not much on vet ships as I try to avoid ship to ship combat. I only want some escorts.
Karabuk, why make a temple? It is not growing and will not need to expand borders or the happiness. You do not need to do anything here, I would go to wealth.
Zonguldak is similar. It is size 5 and not growing. It cannot use an aqua, until rails.
I also see a lot of workers working on mountains. These workers are not doing anything useful right now.
First the are solo workers making mines on a mountain. Those mines are not going to be worked now and maybe never. The town is stuck on 5 and corrupt. If you did need a mine, put a gang on the job.
If you need 9 worker turns to mine the mountain and used 9 workers. That mine would be in service next turn. Now you will have no mines done for 9 turns. In this case it matter not as I doubt any will be worked.
You have 53 workers, very commendable, but you cannot afford them all for only 27 towns.
To be honest I am not sure if I would let any go or not. It is a long way till you get Steam though.
You may be able to add in a number of workers and pop some back out later for rails. You save the maint cost now and gain the production. I would look close at that.
You do not have a large army at this juncture, but you are not facing any combat either.
One problem you have is Theo has a boat that has lethal bombardment and you have nothing to fight back with now.
You have little to gain from a war with her right now, did she start it? If not make peace. If she did, I wold still make peace. I do not want Dromons busting up my coastal towns.
You have one one issue and that is the weak troops. I would think about changing my research to Chiv. I know you spent 1 turn on Chem, but it is not much good to you.
Upgrading horses to Sipahi is beyond your means right now, so making knights is good. You can upgrade them cheaply.
It is not a given, but is worth consideration. I would have not gone to the bottom track before going to Chiv. A pre for KT would be useful as well. It often is fine to skip knights, but you were thin on attackers and horses are expensive to upgrade.
It looks like you do not have a great deal to worry about on the landmass right now, so I think I would switch the treb in Bolu to a lib. 15 trebs is
enough for a peaceful player right now.
Iskenderun I would not make a 30 turn treb here, go with wealth for now. You have enough trebs and cannot afford to pile up more units or settlers that will not earn there keep.
Tunceli I have a rule, no units after the early warriors can be build without a barracks, unless I have a good reason. That could be that I am in Monarchy and the unit will not do anything but MP duty. I am in an AW game and have to have the units flowing. There could be other reason, but I need one.
Sivas no more workers right now. You cannot pay for them.
I won't go through all towns. I did want to mention trees. I like to see them chopped some time around the late middle ages. You may need to hold one or two. I am looking towards Steam and I do not want to have to chop them then. I also know that the 10 shields are not much as you get to this point.
You have a lot of trees in a few towns in the core. Look to see if they are even benefiting from the extra shield right now. IOW Iznik is making horses at 30 shields. It nets 24 shields.
The extra shield form the forest is of no value here. You still need two turns. If you could gain the 6 shields to get to 30 net, that is different. Take the 10 shields from the chop and mine the tile. When rails hit you are back to 2 shields. In the mean time you are going to be able to grow again with the extra food.
I ignored the colosseums, but I will say they cost 2gpt. So do cathedrals and they give 3 content pop. A better deal, if you must build something.
This could be done by planting Izmil one tile close and then a new town next to the mountain on the river. Konya could go on the river. It really should have gone on the river with no extra town.
These things will not hurt at this level, but in a tough game, could matter. I know many like to get the extra tiles for the capitol, but it can have plenty of tiles. Rivers are very good as you know, but especially good for the early towns.
The biggest thing that jumps out at you is of course, support cost. 100gpt on a 700gpt empire, this during a GA. Once the GA ends, you will have a problem. You have 50 units over support.
You only have 4 cities, the rest are towns and here is one more reason I prefer CxxC. You would have quite a few more towns for support. So you want to consider getting more towns down and getting some to cities.
Konya should have been out on the hill as long as you did not squeeze in another town.
It would then be on the river, so no aqua to build, the tile it sits on would get more food. Konya will need a harbor now as well, until rails. So you are making two extra structures and having to pay the maint.
The war is a problem as you have no intel on the lovely, but dangerous lady. You are in a GA and running 30% taxes and still only net 2gpt.
Consider switching Bingol from temple to aqua. Need the support. Then a harbor to get more pop and commerce. I tend to not build many harbors, but it will pay off, I think. Once rails go up, you could consider selling it.
I am not much on vet ships as I try to avoid ship to ship combat. I only want some escorts.
Karabuk, why make a temple? It is not growing and will not need to expand borders or the happiness. You do not need to do anything here, I would go to wealth.
Zonguldak is similar. It is size 5 and not growing. It cannot use an aqua, until rails.
I also see a lot of workers working on mountains. These workers are not doing anything useful right now.
First the are solo workers making mines on a mountain. Those mines are not going to be worked now and maybe never. The town is stuck on 5 and corrupt. If you did need a mine, put a gang on the job.
If you need 9 worker turns to mine the mountain and used 9 workers. That mine would be in service next turn. Now you will have no mines done for 9 turns. In this case it matter not as I doubt any will be worked.
You have 53 workers, very commendable, but you cannot afford them all for only 27 towns.
To be honest I am not sure if I would let any go or not. It is a long way till you get Steam though.
You may be able to add in a number of workers and pop some back out later for rails. You save the maint cost now and gain the production. I would look close at that.
You do not have a large army at this juncture, but you are not facing any combat either.
One problem you have is Theo has a boat that has lethal bombardment and you have nothing to fight back with now.
You have little to gain from a war with her right now, did she start it? If not make peace. If she did, I wold still make peace. I do not want Dromons busting up my coastal towns.
You have one one issue and that is the weak troops. I would think about changing my research to Chiv. I know you spent 1 turn on Chem, but it is not much good to you.
Upgrading horses to Sipahi is beyond your means right now, so making knights is good. You can upgrade them cheaply.
It is not a given, but is worth consideration. I would have not gone to the bottom track before going to Chiv. A pre for KT would be useful as well. It often is fine to skip knights, but you were thin on attackers and horses are expensive to upgrade.
It looks like you do not have a great deal to worry about on the landmass right now, so I think I would switch the treb in Bolu to a lib. 15 trebs is
enough for a peaceful player right now.
Iskenderun I would not make a 30 turn treb here, go with wealth for now. You have enough trebs and cannot afford to pile up more units or settlers that will not earn there keep.
Tunceli I have a rule, no units after the early warriors can be build without a barracks, unless I have a good reason. That could be that I am in Monarchy and the unit will not do anything but MP duty. I am in an AW game and have to have the units flowing. There could be other reason, but I need one.
Sivas no more workers right now. You cannot pay for them.
I won't go through all towns. I did want to mention trees. I like to see them chopped some time around the late middle ages. You may need to hold one or two. I am looking towards Steam and I do not want to have to chop them then. I also know that the 10 shields are not much as you get to this point.
You have a lot of trees in a few towns in the core. Look to see if they are even benefiting from the extra shield right now. IOW Iznik is making horses at 30 shields. It nets 24 shields.
The extra shield form the forest is of no value here. You still need two turns. If you could gain the 6 shields to get to 30 net, that is different. Take the 10 shields from the chop and mine the tile. When rails hit you are back to 2 shields. In the mean time you are going to be able to grow again with the extra food.
I ignored the colosseums, but I will say they cost 2gpt. So do cathedrals and they give 3 content pop. A better deal, if you must build something.
I disagree. Additionally, your game works as very well winnable for a 20k game... especially since you got that Writing SGL. Move one turn south, plant there, and you would have had a game, two BG, and a cow. More than enough production for a 20k Regent game even if you spit out a settler first (which would work as probably the best plan). Or maybe even research Pottery first, build a granary, then two settlers and then wonders. I really wonder why you didn't start another one as a sort of tutorial, as an SGL for the Pyramids makes everything easier in just about every sort of game type I know of... well even in an OCC space game it makes things much better. To see why I say you don't need a very good start location for a 20k game check here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=280918. I played on Monarch level, I had a lake, an oasis, and lots of desert as The Sumerians. My shield output barely deserves comment, since it came out so low. If I played as The English or The Portuguese or The Hittites and had a bunch of plains instead of desert arguably the game might have even worked out as easier.
Would you please stop talking about 20k, it is a boring game and I surely do not need any advice. This was meant as a general idea, not a guide to 20k. Let those that want ot play 20K, look elsewhere. There is no shortage of 20K threads.
I can understand lazy as I too give in to it as things wind down.
I just pulled up the save and did not look around much as you are nearly done. In fact it looked like you already had 66%, but the game says not quite. The one thing I did wonder about was you have ToE and are researching Elec?
What did you take with the ToE? Normally I would take AT and Elec as they are more expensive than the others you could get at that point. Not a big deal for sure and I have had many games were I had to go another way.
As long as nothing is pressing and I do not expect to end the game soon, I take the expensive techs to speed getting out of the Age. Often I have to protect myself by getting to the UN fast. Not at this level, but in AW games. there the vote is not going to be good.
What did you take with the ToE? Normally I would take AT and Elec as they are more expensive than the others you could get at that point. Not a big deal for sure and I have had many games were I had to go another way.
As long as nothing is pressing and I do not expect to end the game soon, I take the expensive techs to speed getting out of the Age. Often I have to protect myself by getting to the UN fast. Not at this level, but in AW games. there the vote is not going to be good.
No, you can either go to the editor to look for any tech cost or use a tool like Techcalc or CAII. Both can be found in the utilities forum. I use Techcalc to find the base cost, when I am not using CAII or I do not have the save.
Optimal City Placement is considered as CxxxC (not by me) as this give 21 tiels for all towns. There is no requirement that towns have 21 tiles in my book. You cannot use 21 tiles, unless you get to 21 pop.
That requires a hospital, except for Shakes, and that requires Sanitation. Waht happens, if I win prior to learning Sanitation? What happens, if I learn Sanitation, but donot manage to build a hospital?
You would expect to go maybe half the game, before you could learn Sanitation. CxxxC is harder to defend early in the game. It is true that you could play games that CxxxC would be benefical, but that is not common for the players that are asking for advise.
That requires a hospital, except for Shakes, and that requires Sanitation. Waht happens, if I win prior to learning Sanitation? What happens, if I learn Sanitation, but donot manage to build a hospital?
You would expect to go maybe half the game, before you could learn Sanitation. CxxxC is harder to defend early in the game. It is true that you could play games that CxxxC would be benefical, but that is not common for the players that are asking for advise.
I think VMXA means CxxxxC, or C4xC. C3xC has overlap between the cities. The best rule of thumb I'd suggest for city placement in Conquests comes as to make sure that some city can use every tile in your core at some point.
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