My biggest issue with the game currently is the map generation

[stealth_nsk]

There are several map types, currently, but all of the work the same way. The map is divided in to rectangular zones for old world, new world and the lands between. On top of that, we have rectangular zones for continents. All map scripts just change how they fill those zones, not the zones themselves and it looks pretty lame. Sure, you can have more or less interesting coastline in fractal, but you'll also have much less landmass than in continents+ and those lands in between would still look like a perfectly vertical chain of islands.

The solution would be to make non-rectangular zones. I understand that it's not a trivial task, I have software engineer background and this kind of algorithms is not that easy providing different map sizes and all the ways of filling the zones, but I believe that would improve the game much.

Another minor thing about map generation is with natural wonders. They seem to be placed after the rest of the map is generated, potentially blocking pathways. Adding them during land scheme phase would potentially resolve some issues, but I understand that it's not an easy thing as well.

 

[Melkus]

Ed Beach said in the latest stream that they have more map options ready and are able to use code of previous Civs for it, but wanted to focus on balanced maps at launch (which the rectangles are probably supposed to provide).

Guess it makes sense (from their point of view) to give us a more controlled environment at first - it's difficult enough for them to interpret the feedback with all these new mechanics. I don't worry about it in the long run.

 

[Riconatic]

I am yet to understand how shuffle works or what it supposed to do. But in my games they have been like continents.

In release stream Ed Beach said that they are looking this. All scripts were done to generate equal multiplayer start. And he said that they understand that for solo players that does not work.

Above added to the distant land refactoring maybe there is hope!

 

[mbbcam]

My complaint with the maps is that, just like previous versions of the game, some starts are just not worth playing -- it is like being dealt a poor hand at cards that you know you can't do much with. This might not be so bad if there were an easy way to roll a new map, but there does not seem to be a button to restart (unless I've missed it). I never really played Civ6 because I didn't like it, so I never stopped playing Civ5, but in that game I always used the Hellblazers map script as I thought it produced better maps (rarely a really bad start). I'm wondering when the modders will have a go at producing better maps.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I am yet to understand how shuffle works or what it supposed to do. But in my games they have been like continents.

As far as I know, the zones there are the same in shuffle.

Above added to the distant land refactoring maybe there is hope!

In the list of things developers are working on is the ability to play multiplayer without AI civs. If it's going to span through all ages, it means distant lands civs will need symmetrical game (so all human players will be in equal positios), which, in turn will require changes how resources work in exploration to produce treasure fleets for both sides. This probably will need some changes in how map is generated to make place for settling in exploration for both sides of the world too.

Unfortunately, I suspect those changes will make developers stick with rectangular zones for now as they are more controllable.

My complaint with the maps is that, just like previous versions of the game, some starts are just not worth playing -- it is like being dealt a poor hand at cards that you know you can't do much with. This might not be so bad if there were an easy way to roll a new map, but there does not seem to be a button to restart (unless I've missed it).

Restart button is missing, but it will be back eventually. And once city connection logic will be sorted out (so coastal city center will not be that big goal), I really expect starting locations to be much more equal than in any previous game.

 

[Siptah]

I am yet to understand how shuffle works or what it supposed to do. But in my games they have been like continents.

In release stream Ed Beach said that they are looking this. All scripts were done to generate equal multiplayer start. And he said that they understand that for solo players that does not work.

Above added to the distant land refactoring maybe there is hope!

Careful with shuffle. I had island chains with lots of treasure resources that didn’t count because the islands didn‘t count as DL. The script is great, but it has problems like these.

 

[Riconatic]

Careful with shuffle. I had island chains with lots of treasure resources that didn’t count because the islands didn‘t count as DL. The script is great, but it has problems like these.

What that script is supposed to do? What is it? Does it shuffle other scripts random? Is it fully own some kind of randomizer script?

I believe I have seen at least very nice map here posted (with maybe the current constraints), but mine does not look like that.

As far as I know, the zones there are the same in shuffle.


In the list of things developers are working on is the ability to play multiplayer without AI civs. If it's going to span through all ages, it means distant lands civs will need symmetrical game (so all human players will be in equal positios), which, in turn will require changes how resources work in exploration to produce treasure fleets for both sides. This probably will need some changes in how map is generated to make place for settling in exploration for both sides of the world too.

Unfortunately, I suspect those changes will make developers stick with rectangular zones for now as they are more controllable.


Restart button is missing, but it will be back eventually. And once city connection logic will be sorted out (so coastal city center will not be that big goal), I really expect starting locations to be much more equal than in any previous game.

Single player and muktiplayer scripts can be separated. Single player only needs some kind of change that other continetns are distant lands. And that is same for everyone. AI and player. Then all 2-20 single player game participants can compete the same.

Sure it wont`t equal all times, but much better than now. And of course leave old scripts for more equal starts.

 

[Siptah]

What that script is supposed to do? What is it? Does it shuffle other scripts random? Is it fully own some kind of randomizer script?

I believe I have seen at least very nice map here posted (with maybe the current constraints), but mine does not look like that.

Shuffle (in previous civ games and as it seems in civ 7 as well) mixes the results of different map scripts, it's not just a random selection of another map type. I played most games in 5 and 6 with it, and it always could have some issues. I assume that's just how combining different scripts works. However, none of the issues I had in earlier titles came close to obvious DL not being DL - this is kind of game breaking. I also had treasure resources on my homeland in this game, but I assumed right away that they won't generate treasure fleets. I will post a screenshot of the map and some cities once I have time to get back into the game.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Single player and muktiplayer scripts can be separated. Single player only needs some kind of change that other continetns are distant lands.

Civ7 does everything to make SP and MP playing the same and map generation is the weirdest thing to distinguish them. Not to mention that would actually increase the amount of work, not decrease it.

Once the changes to make the game even more multiplayer-friendly roll out, they surely need to be applied to SP as well. My point is - I doubt developers will start working on non-rectangular zones map scripts before this part will be done, because game changes there could affect how maps should be generated.

 

[Riconatic]

Civ7 does everything to make SP and MP playing the same and map generation is the weirdest thing to distinguish them. Not to mention that would actually increase the amount of work, not decrease it.

Once the changes to make the game even more multiplayer-friendly roll out, they surely need to be applied to SP as well. My point is - I doubt developers will start working on non-rectangular zones map scripts before this part will be done, because game changes there could affect how maps should be generated.

Well. I interpreted launch stream Ed Beach in a way that new map scripts coming won’t care about MP equality.

 

[UWHabs]

Not that I necessarily think it's easy, but I would love it instead of the big boxes they generate in, if they could define the continents more loosely. Basically, cut the map up into chunks, between each chunk is deep ocean, and have a few rules within the chunks ie. they must be entirely connected by shallow water, and must have shallow water within X tiles of certain other locations on the edge. If there was a system like that, then you could at least have a better control over where the connections between the landmasses are, but also have the ability to have larger open oceans.

 

[Siptah]

I don't have an endgame save to show the mini map of the shuffle map script that bugged out. But maybe, this may do.

As you can see, the Homeland (middle) looks like it does on Fractal. The "Island chain" to the west contains much more land as these chains usually do. That's why I first assumed it would be the DL mainland. There are many treasure resources on there, but it doesn't count as DL - hence, no treasure fleets and no military points.

Funny thing: the small island in the south of the "chain," close to Himiko's island settlements actually counts as DL.

The DL proper were to different continents. Amina and Himiko both started in the southern one, but the northern one was completely empty when I arrived.

 

[evonannoredars]

which, in turn will require changes how resources work in exploration to produce treasure fleets for both sides.

I don't think there's much changing they'd need to do - don't some resources already work as regular resources on the home continent but as treasure ones on distant lands? Gold and silver for example, unless I'm misremembering.

 

[UWHabs]

I don't think there's much changing they'd need to do - don't some resources already work as regular resources on the home continent but as treasure ones on distant lands? Gold and silver for example, unless I'm misremembering.

The problem is that all resources get tagged in their types based on where they are. They'd need to add a change so that, for example, Gold could change between "Homelands Gold" and "Distant Lands Gold" depending on who owns the resource. And then presumably would also need to add in something so that treasure resources are tagged to their proper home continent, so that if a distant lands AI settles next to a homelands Silk tile, it generates treasure fleets for them, but that I can't simply capture the fleet and return it to my lands for points.

You could even let civs return treasures anywhere if you didn't want the last point. If a distant lands civ settles next to me and is trying to steal my homeland treasures, being able to "protect" them arguably isn't even a bad thing from a gameplay perspective. Although I think you'd probably need to raise the requirement since you would have more treasure fleets being made.

 

[Seek]

There are several map types, currently, but all of the work the same way. The map is divided in to rectangular zones for old world, new world and the lands between. On top of that, we have rectangular zones for continents. All map scripts just change how they fill those zones, not the zones themselves and it looks pretty lame. Sure, you can have more or less interesting coastline in fractal, but you'll also have much less landmass than in continents+ and those lands in between would still look like a perfectly vertical chain of islands.

The solution would be to make non-rectangular zones. I understand that it's not a trivial task, I have software engineer background and this kind of algorithms is not that easy providing different map sizes and all the ways of filling the zones, but I believe that would improve the game much.

Another minor thing about map generation is with natural wonders. They seem to be placed after the rest of the map is generated, potentially blocking pathways. Adding them during land scheme phase would potentially resolve some issues, but I understand that it's not an easy thing as well.

You make great points here! For me, it’s not just the blocky shapes and vertical splits, but also:

• Small size maps (self explanatory) and inability to choose number of civs on HL without removing all civs from DL.
• The small proportion of sea (it seems like only ~50% of the maps are ocean) which makes maps feel even smaller than they are and claustrophobic
• The rather strict banding of the biomes based only on latitude, seemingly, which is just dull. Please add global weather pattern modeling!

Guess it makes sense (from their point of view) to give us a more controlled environment at first - it's difficult enough for them to interpret the feedback with all these new mechanics. I don't worry about it in the long run.

Not disagreeing, but I gotta say: this needless handholding is contributing a good amount to people’s negative impression of the game.

 

[Leyrann]

Civ7 does everything to make SP and MP playing the same and map generation is the weirdest thing to distinguish them.

Distinguishing SP and MP in map generation is something previous civs also did though. Some Civ 6 map scripts were meant specifically for multiplayer. I believe one of them was called 4-leaf clover?

The problem is that all resources get tagged in their types based on where they are. They'd need to add a change so that, for example, Gold could change between "Homelands Gold" and "Distant Lands Gold" depending on who owns the resource.

I kinda want them to change the system entirely. Lock some resources to one continent, lock some resources to the other. Then, the way a resource behaves depends on the home continent of a civ. A unique to your home continent resource just behaves like a normal resource, while a resource that doesn't appear on your home continent behaves like a distant lands resource.

This creates the same mechanic from a player perspective, but with a twist... you're now yourself the distant lands of the other continent. Which means that those civs have the same reason to colonize your lands as you have to colonize theirs. And the question simply becomes, who is stronger and ends up colonizing the other?

 

[CoconutTank]

I'm hoping in future iterations that the "new world" between the homelands will have more actual land to them in the near future. Either that, or give us more ways to use water tiles.

I do like that there's a stronger emphasis on naval combat for the Exploration Age, but it's also really frustrating to have maybe 4 or 5 land tiles max per new world settlement, and perhaps even less than that when some of those land tiles are dedicated to resources. It often feels like a bad idea to convert a new world town to a city bc of such constrained land, but I often need a staging point for getting to the other side of the world, and I'd rather not have everything mobilize from my homelands.

 

[King of Prussia]

I prefer cont plus currently, due to having intermediate islands to settle or use as break points over continents. I guess you could say its more "historic" on continents that you may not find land when you cross, so you just lose your ships until you find the right spot to cross. I personally would rather not deal with that. Trade winds could be an interesting mechanic though, allowing for faster sailing from homelands to dl and back.

to add on to the resource discussion, id prefer if all luxuries that can be assigned to a city in dl would count towards making treasure fleets. The numbers would need to be rebalanced. You could make some more valuable than others, if you want to add more variety.

 

[AriochIV]

People like to complain about the UI problems, but I think the biggest obstacles to replayability right now are the forced legacy path objectives and the complete lack of map options. Map exploration loses interest when you already know where everything is going to be, not helped by the largest oceans on the largest map size being no more than 4 or 5 tiles across (they try to stretch out exploration time by making the ships painfully slow... your Scouts will beat your exploration vessels to the opposite shore of the distant lands), and you can't "play the map" when the maps are all the same and the difference in terrain yields is largely gone. The map was an important character in the emergent narrative of a Civ game, and that character has been mostly written out of the story.

 

[stealth_nsk]

People like to complain about the UI problems, but I think the biggest obstacles to replayability right now are the forced legacy path objectives and the complete lack of map options. Map exploration loses interest when you already know where everything is going to be, not helped by the largest oceans on the largest map size being no more than 4 or 5 tiles across (they try to stretch out exploration time by making the ships painfully slow... your Scouts will beat your exploration vessels to the opposite shore of the distant lands), and you can't "play the map" when the maps are all the same and the difference in terrain yields is largely gone. The map was an important character in the emergent narrative of a Civ game, and that character has been mostly written out of the story.

I don't see any problem with legacy path objectives. They just gamify things you would normally do anyway, like building wonders, using resources and so on. And since they are totally skippable, I can't say they force you do anything.

Moreover, I see legacy paths as necessary mechanics in context of age reset - they allow keeping effect from things not carried over to the next age. For example, collecting codices would be useless near the age end, because they disappear anyway. But by achieving science legacy paths objectives you could produce some bonuses for the next age.