Is the criticism correct: Is there no actual farm/rural-looking parts of the developed map? [Share your screenshots]

Just dedicated my towns to producing food again (meaning they stop growing) in the Modern Era, here's how the area looks now. I will note that I took some effort to grab all the tiles in between Pompeii and Burdigala over, for example, fishing boats.

By the way, it's not blindingly obvious, but Ostia is this close to running out of tiles to build on. I genuinely have room for only four more land buildings in this screenshot (three at the time of writing), plus I can overbuild twice on the Navigable River, and of course I can build on the water.
 
Right. I don't entirely disagree, you could have maybe said that initially? :)

I think maybe there is a halfway between what they had and where we are now. For me, I think it is good that when a city grows, I can now choose which tile the new pop works and improve that tile in the same process, no need to build workers/builders to improve the tile. Personal preference but I always found workers entirely annoying, good riddance.

What I would like to see is additional choice; i.e., allow me to put farms on vegetated tiles, if I like. It might also be nice if it was a bit more flexible, and allow me to move a citizen if needed - I'm just not sure how that would work in a system where the tile is improved by placing a citizen. I don't know!
Sorry if I was being unclear. :dunno:

Anyway, I agree with you, getting rid of builders was a good choice. I'm more torn on the improve-tile-when-citizen-is-placed design. I'm not keen on how it disallows you to move citizens, but what's worse, I don't like how it just gives you the improvement instantly for free. Again, it's about the choice and opportunity cost that was involved in the old system: You needed to invest production (or money) into builders, which was resources that could otherwise have gone elsewhere. That was good, because that added strategic depth to the game. I'm all for not having to move the builders around, but I'd have opted for a system, where the tile improvement was constructed (or bought) through the town interface in the same way that we build units and buildings. That would have left us with the choice: Do I want to invest in improving this tile (giving higher yields, i.e. long-term benefits), or will I rather invest in buildings or units (security, short-term benefits). I would also decouple citizen placement (thus allowing us to move them).

I had actually hoped for a tile improvement system that was more flexible than Civ6, not less. It's always been a weird abstraction for me that we can't put farms on hills for most of the game - that just seems historically inaccurate. And why do mines only go on hills, unless there is a resource, then it goes everywhere? I mean, what is mined in those hills that can't be mined in other places? Anyway, as for what could be done to salvage the Civ7 system: Yes, allowing you to place a farm on a vegetated tile (thus removing the vegetation) seems like the obvious first choice. And as for moving the citizens, if the improvement magically appears when you place the citizen ... maybe it just disappears when you move the citizen? I mean, it's not historically inaccurate that you have farms that go out of order when not being worked. And then of course they would need to decouple citizen placement from culture bombing tiles, which was an absolutely horrible mechanism in the first place imo.
 
That's actually a good point. I'd like the option to be able to put a Farm over vegetated terrain. Mind you, I don't want to the return of chopping for Production (too gamey and micromanagey), but some way to convert a tile from Vegetated to Flat would be nice.
And maybe something else to do with forests other than woodcutters, which isn’t the most attractive tile. I hated the game of preserves in VI but maybe we need something like this. In exploration it could be something like the king’s wood. Happiness and influence, etc.?
 
Yeah, I wonder why they went with such a extremely streamlining in improvement placement. I understand that they wanted to make the process fast, but let me pick which. The same goes with the overbuilding, with the game deciding which two of the old ones to replace. I understand that some decisions can open a can of worms (if a later tech allows farms on forest, how do you handle the player wanting to go back and replace them? etc).

My best farm location yet:

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Yeah, I wonder why they went with such a extremely streamlining in improvement placement. I understand that they wanted to make the process fast, but let me pick which. The same goes with the overbuilding, with the game deciding which two of the old ones to replace. I understand that some decisions can open a can of worms (if a later tech allows farms on forest, how do you handle the player wanting to go back and replace them? etc).

My best farm location yet:

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So pretty. Living for turning Civ VII into Stardew Valley/Harvest Moon.
 
Yeah, Fishing Boats usually produce more food than Farms, which works against having lots of farmland. That doesn't seem like it should be the case.

Farms can be boosted by more things than Fishing Boats, though, so their potential is much higher. In the game I just finished, the highest yield on Fishing Boats that I had was 5, and my Farm tiles were mostly more in the 5-8 range. It balances out a bit, though, because Fishing Boats are a thing you'll keep around even in a heavily urbanized coastal town, just because there are very few urban districts that you can place on coastal tiles. You'll have one coastal tile with a Fishing Quay and a Wharf/Port, and that's about it unless you build a coastal wonder.

Regarding the question of whether settlements have too much urban sprawl: I think people haven't yet quite wrapped their heads around the whole concept of Towns yet. Cities, for the most part, do tend to urbanize over time until the only rural tiles left are resources (which you can't build over with urban districts). And I think that progression is intentional, and makes sense thematically. Look at a large city like New York--how much rural space and farmland is there is New York City, including the boroughs? Basically none, unless you could parks. Any city in Civ VII that grows enough is going to eventually turn into to that sort of metropolis.

But Civ VII doesn't want you to just build cities. They have the new town mechanic, and while I know they originally pitched it as a mechanic that reduces micromanagement, and a lot of people seem to think of towns as either a temporary state until you get around to turning that settlement into a city, I think there's a pretty good argument to be made for building towns that you intend to keep as towns for the entire game, regardless of whether you are playing tall or wide. Towns have the capability to support cities in a way that supercharges their growth and development, and the way that cities urbanize is part of that, because over time most cities lose a lot of their food production and growth slows almost to a halt. And growth is important, even in cities that have no more claimable tiles, because: Specialists.

As an example, here is my trio of Nekhen/Waset/Gangaikonda Cholapuram in the modern age (Nekhen is just to the southwest). These three cities have grown together into a gigantic megalopolis, and the only rural tiles that any of them have at this point are resource tiles.

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All three of these cities are still growing at a good pace. Let's look at Waset and see why:
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That's 243.2 food per turn. Of that, only 11.8 food comes from Waset itself. The rest come from the various towns that surround this megalopolis, like Meroe, which is just to the west of Waset:
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Meroe is a farming town. I intentionally established it as a farming town and will never convert it to a city, because Waset needs Meroe to be a farming town in order to grow. Meroe does have two urban quarters, to accommodate some warehouse buildings--Granary, Grocer, etc.--and that's all the urbanization it needs. I have other farming towns feeding Nekhen and Gangaikonda Cholapuram, and I have some mining towns that are giving me a lot of gold per turn. And some trading towns, and various other things. There are a bunch of useful town specializations.

My point is, if you are converting all of your settlements to cities, you are leaving a lot of potential growth and production on the table. Civ VII really wants you to build a variety of settlements--a mix of cities and towns that support those cities. Some settlements will be urban sprawl, some of them will be idyllic farming communities, some will be ugly industrial towns--there's a lot of variety.

So ultimately, no--you don't lose all of your rural tiles over the course of the game. They do get pushed to the outskirts of your major cities over time, and I think that does a pretty good job mirroring what happens in real life.
 
Yeah if there’s one thing I miss from the earlier games it’s farm adjacency bonuses. Would love love love to see it return. Anything to incentivize it.
One thing I think could help and that would be an interesting twist on adjacencies would actually be giving urban districts adjacency bonuses to improvements. So having say the market and grocer give adjacency bonuses to farms or vice versa, the blacksmith and factory would give adjacency bonuses with mines, things like that. It would encourage a bit more strategic placement of some urban districts and incentivize a clearer edge to the urban area that you'd have a tradeoff for sprawling past.
 
Yeah, I wonder why they went with such a extremely streamlining in improvement placement. I understand that they wanted to make the process fast, but let me pick which. The same goes with the overbuilding, with the game deciding which two of the old ones to replace. I understand that some decisions can open a can of worms (if a later tech allows farms on forest, how do you handle the player wanting to go back and replace them? etc).

My best farm location yet:

Lovely, this is basically what I had hoped the rural towns would look like.

Regarding the question of whether settlements have too much urban sprawl: I think people haven't yet quite wrapped their heads around the whole concept of Towns yet. Cities, for the most part, do tend to urbanize over time until the only rural tiles left are resources (which you can't build over with urban districts). And I think that progression is intentional, and makes sense thematically. Look at a large city like New York--how much rural space and farmland is there is New York City, including the boroughs? Basically none, unless you could parks. Any city in Civ VII that grows enough is going to eventually turn into to that sort of metropolis.

But Civ VII doesn't want you to just build cities. They have the new town mechanic, and while I know they originally pitched it as a mechanic that reduces micromanagement, and a lot of people seem to think of towns as either a temporary state until you get around to turning that settlement into a city, I think there's a pretty good argument to be made for building towns that you intend to keep as towns for the entire game, regardless of whether you are playing tall or wide. Towns have the capability to support cities in a way that supercharges their growth and development, and the way that cities urbanize is part of that, because over time most cities lose a lot of their food production and growth slows almost to a halt. And growth is important, even in cities that have no more claimable tiles, because: Specialists.

(...)

So ultimately, no--you don't lose all of your rural tiles over the course of the game. They do get pushed to the outskirts of your major cities over time, and I think that does a pretty good job mirroring what happens in real life.
I appreciate this idea, and that was indeed also how I had hoped the game would play out - just not what I've seen in action. What I've seen instead is majority of towns being converted into cities, and those that remain having still a lot of urban improvements.

I don't inherently have anything against the big metropolis cities, but I do strongly feel against several of such cities being placed so close to each other that they grow into a big blob. Again, there seems to be several issues at play here, including:
  • Game balance being off, not making a high city:town ratio punishing/demanding enough for the player to maintain, and
  • Maps being too small, and
  • Minimum - and perhaps optimal - city distance being too small.
On a side-note, am I right in understanding that the Settlement Limit does not distinguish between cities and towns - or does it only count cities? Because when I original heard about this feature, I thought it was a City limit, i.e. a tool to control the City:Town ratio you could maintain in your empire, but unless I've misunderstood things, that's not the case - and if so, it seems like a wasted opportunity.

I really hope they'll be able to tweak balance so that you need at least one rural town to feed and support a major city with production, maybe even several rural towns for a major metropolis that doesn't have any rural improvement left itself. But of course, again, that requires larger maps.
 
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Minimum - and perhaps optimal - city distance being too small.

Yeah, I kinda expected with them going more for a 4 tile radius this time.

On a side-note, am I right in understanding that the Settlement Limit does not distinguish between cities and towns - or does it only count cities? Because when I original heard about this feature, I thought it was a City limit, i.e. a tool to control the City:Town ratio you could maintain in your empire, but unless I've misunderstood things, that's not the case - and if so, it seems like a wasted opportunity.

It counts both, but towns are quite strong with bonuses when specialized, and even there are some bonuses regarding specialists when having 3 cities.
 
You can quite literally customize your landscape however you like. If you want a natural feeling countryside put farming towns between cities. That’s what I do.
 
While you can indeed role-play on your side of the world to make it look good, you then pan over the AI mess and I would expect someone that cares about these aesthetics to feel disheartened.
What like this monstrosity?
 

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I appreciate this idea, and that was indeed also how I had hoped the game would play out - just not what I've seen in action. What I've seen instead is majority of towns being converted into cities, and those that remain having still a lot of urban improvements.

This is what I mean by "People haven't wrapped their heads around how towns work yet." You generally want to build as few urban districts in a town as possible. A farming town might want a couple of food warehouses and maybe a fishing Quay if it has enough coastal tiles to make it worthwhile. But you don't want to be building a bunch of other city improvements like gold buildings and culture buildings because you they take away rural tiles and make the town less good at its intended purpose (support cities), and those urban districts are never going to be as good as the same urban district in a city because they can never have specialists.



I don't inherently have anything against the big metropolis cities, but I do strongly feel against several of such cities being placed so close to each other that they grow into a big blob.

I mean, again--this happens in real life. Look at the New York metro area, or the Tokyo metro area, or the southeast coast of Florida, or Mexico City.


I really hope they'll be able to tweak balance so that you need at least one rural town to feed and support a major city with production, maybe even several rural towns for a major metropolis that doesn't have any rural improvement left itself. But of course, again, that requires larger maps.

You really do, though, unless you want your cities to effectively stop growing. Here's a save from about halfway through the Exploration age (turn 80), looking at my city of Waset. It had more of its own food production at this point in the game than it did in the Modern age, but it's still not nearly enough to sustain its own growth without the help of towns. Waset has just grown a pop; supported by towns, it will grow another one (and gain another specialist) in 15 turns.

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If I turn off the food deliveries from the surrounding towns (which you can do by switching them back to "Growing Town"), forcing Waset to rely on its own food production, its growth rate decreases to one new pop (aka specialist) every 54 turns. At this rate, Waset will probably only gain one more specialist before the Exploration age ends.

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You will have a hard time completing the science legacy path (for example) if you choke off the growth of your cities like this, and the yield boosts from specialists in general are useful for pursuing basically all of the legacy paths.

I think it's easy to get the wrong idea, because in Antiquity you totally can turn everything into a city and its fine. Cities aren't that urbanized yet and can support their own growth reasonably well, and towns are probably all still growing and not supporting cities yet anyway. But the town > city relationship becomes increasingly important in the Exploration age, and large cities won't really grow at all in the Modern age without some help from towns (hopefully you kept some!).
 
Look at a large city like New York--how much rural space and farmland is there is New York City, including the boroughs?

Except New York is tiny in comparison to the entire United States of America. If you wanted to have a gamified equivalent, you'd need to have like five (in-game) towns worth of farmland just for NYC, and if you wanted a realistic equivalent, you'd probably need like fifty towns worth of farmland. In reality, the proper ratio in the game is at most 2 towns to 1 city, possibly less.

I'm fine with having a 37 urban districts city... if I'm expected by game design, map size, et cetera to put five or six rural towns adjacent to it to feed it.

See also below.
 
Currently approaching the end of the Age of Antiquity in my new game, and I realized... this, except with most of the unimproved (and unclaimed) tiles improved, is basically what I want the game to look like. But in the Modern Age. Not in 800 BC.

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I think it's easy to get the wrong idea, because in Antiquity you totally can turn everything into a city and its fine. Cities aren't that urbanized yet and can support their own growth reasonably well, and towns are probably all still growing and not supporting cities yet anyway. But the town > city relationship becomes increasingly important in the Exploration age, and large cities won't really grow at all in the Modern age without some help from towns (hopefully you kept some!).
Just a few points. It's actually harder for an antiquity city to grow past 4 or 5 than a modern one regardless of how you choose to feed it (at the same % growth bonuses). The food requirement at an equivalent number of growth events is higher in antiquity than modern. And on top of it modern has much much better yields. To put number down, growing from 10 to 11 (growth event) costs 2025 in antiquity while it costs 921 in modern.
But what happens as you show is that in modern your cities are already at a higher pop AND have less rural tiles to work with. At the same time, as explained in the previous sentence, the value of food is much better, making food towns a better value than in antiquity.

If gold permits, I wonder if the strategy wouldn't be to transform towns into cities past some pop number due to how much negative returns there is on food in antiquity to develop their infrastructure and then leave them as town in exploration and/or modern when the value of food rises up again. Obviously this assumes no crazy growth bonuses like playing with Khmer.
 
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I mean, again--this happens in real life. Look at the New York metro area, or the Tokyo metro area, or the southeast coast of Florida, or Mexico City.
Yes, I think like Leyrann also pointed out, this is not a good equivalent given the scale of the map in Civ VII. Yes, you have a number of such areas in real life US (New York area, Los Angeles area I suppose, maybe sourtheast Florida like you mention), but then you have huge - as in huuuuge - areas in between that are rural or completely undeveloped. So scaling this down to Civ VII map size, I think it's fair to say that the sum of all those metropolis areas still are proportinally much less to USA's total area than a 37 hex city is to the area of a normal empire in Civ VII - so yes, I can accept one such megacity per empire, but numerous ones growing into each other feels way off (not to mention it looks horrible).
 
There's some really good advice here. I've learnt a lot about how to utilize towns.

But what about the specializations? Does everyone just leave them on Food unless they are in a specific race/situation, e.g. needing more space for relics?
 
There's some really good advice here. I've learnt a lot about how to utilize towns.

But what about the specializations? Does everyone just leave them on Food unless they are in a specific race/situation, e.g. needing more space for relics?
I've one with barely any food but a lots a mine Resources and minable tiles, so this one I've put on mining specialization. If it produces a good amount of food, then food specialization without a doubt. If for whatever reason it is not connected to a City... then something else useful for you.
 
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