My next (massive as always) scenario ((POLL))

[sela1s1son]

Excuse me.... USA implanted military dictatorship? Since when did American forces land in Brazil? I don't remember reading this (and I love history, so I look at more then just a textbook and intend on majoring in it, and getting a Phd in it so I can be a professor) Unless it was a naval ship in the 1800's stoping for coal or supplies, I can't think of any time. I am interested in possible heroes, considering the situation of the scenario... sure.

And realize that I am not a commie/socialist when I make this scenario. I am a right wing american college student. I know a right wing college student is rare, but they dod exist. I know all two. ;-) j/k However, this scenario is interesting. Both as an American, and as a person who oposes the ideals of communism I would not want to live in this world I propose. However, as I said it is interesting. I love history, and I love to use alternate history to analyze the impact of real events (by using the turning point).




With the Soviet-Cuban nation idea... I'm going to have to look at my notes, but I believe I currently have them as Anti-Communist. However, you do have a point about "Lula"'s revolt possibly succeding if the USA had been unable to support the government. I will have to find out to what extent the USA supported the government. It is obviously not direct military intervention, or I would have read about it. I'm VERY glad you mentioned this as I am obviously not familiar with Brazlian history (although I do know a little due to my research for the Rome in the Modern World series).

Kohl:I'd greatly appreciate if you could link me to some sites where I could read more about it. The extent of support will baiscally determine my decision. I might move them towards the Soviet Sphere, maybe not. I'm debating the starting date to. The question I ask you is: If his revolt had succeded... would he have aligned himself (in the same level as Cuba, or the People's Republic of Madison in the scenario) with the Soviet Union? I doubt he would with China (and the People's Republic of America will have territory near Brazil, (Ecuador, and other nations will be part of them).

Would he be more likely to join the Nuetrals Alliance (an alliance of states to protect themselves from the three big spheres) or would he be independent of any sphere?

One thing that might keep it in the Anti-Communist league (which I believe it currently is) is a balance of powers... as the two Communist spheres will be stronger... and in my eyes the Anti-Communist league will have a hard enough time as it is. Of course I could move Texas Republic (Texas, other Midwest states excluding the Heartland) to the Anti-Communist league... but it seems a little odd to have an American breakaway nation and the remaining USA together.

I'm definitly going to have to read more on this, and probably sleep on it. Again, if you could point me to a website or two where I could read on it, I'd appreciate it. I'll also talk to a few people who are friends of mine that teach history as they could give me some insight to.

This scenario I'm debating about starting anywhere from 1985 to 2001. I'm leaning a little away from 1985 more then I was as it'd likely take several years for the dust to settle, some of the nations to establish themselves, smaller breakaways might get gobbled up, etc.

However, I'm beat. You have some interesting ideas, and while I'm not even close to Communist, I would say your thoughts will benefit this scenario, especially as I know little about Brazlilian history. However as loving of history as I know, I don't remember our involvement being written in some of the books I've read or classes I've had. It just seems a little odd I would never have encountered it... so that's where I'm coming from.

 

[General Kohl]

About US help to the coup in Brazil:
In march 31,1964 the situation in Brazil, was about to a revolution, the Left-wing(Socialist-Soviet) president, Mr Joao Goulart was being severelt atack, by an right wing opposition, supported by the embassy of the USA, in march 31 when the dramatic conflict betwhen the socialist(69% of the population, Vox Populi data) against the minority of conservatives became innevitable, Parts of the Brazilian army made a coup d´stat with support of the USA, which stationed 2 US NUCLEAR SUBMARINE in Santos, The Biggest seaport in the world, also 53 km away from Sao Paulo, wich is the Biggest city in Latin America, also stationed an Airplane carrier near Rio de Janeiro and a Destroyer, also a troop carrier near Salvardor,the american governament claimed that they where on treinament on south atlantic, however Coronel Jose Batista, revealed in an historic interwiew that the US Governament knew about the coup a month before it happened,
Also confirmed that the CIA sabotaged loyal army instalattions, gave nem AR-15 rifles to the coup and financed it, and in the following years to the coup, all the high scale military received training in USA, and Bribes, according to the book "The shamed Dictatorship" of Elio Gaspari, one of the major historicians of Brazil wich confirmed the colonel´s report being true.

About Lula
when Lula in 1984 started the major strike(All car factories in the country stopped working, followed quicly by other sectors) he was a strong leader,he was even considered by somes as a saint or even Jesus (no, i dont believe in that), the Brazilian Governament was weak and the military, was now under heavy help of the CIA(once again proved in Gaspari´s book), The Brazilian army would never had received new weapons( FAL Rifles, 80 new Tanks[old american 60´s models] and A diesel SUBMARINE!!), without those, the Brazilian army would never be able to resist the Guerrillas(wich did atacked the base of the II army in Sao Paulo), what if the Sao Paulo atack, just started the take over?, it would make sense, since the army was underarmed, and the governamment broke(No american Economic help)then it would be quickly followed by massive atacks against military bases in Brasil, Lula, was surely going to command the revolution,his party PT was in that time a cuban-soviet influenced Socialist Party(most of his close friend exiled in Cuba and he had visited Soviet Union and Cuba, plenty of times, and China olny once), but the idea of a neutral socialist country sounds good, specialy, if it was a Socialist Democracy ( no war weariness, Brazil was in military mobilization)then Brazil, could settle down regional conflicts

About Links

i dont have many links, since my research is based mostly on books but this website here is a neutral(not socialist, nor right wing) nacionalist website, and used to have an english version, but it is not big stuff
www.MV-Brasil.org.br (nacionalist Brazilian webpage)
http://www.smabc.org.br/historia/index.htm(history of the Steelworker unions, show a lot of info about him and has a foto of the big strike)in portuguese
http://www.cebela.org.br/ (great site, in portuguese)
http://www.foia.state.gov/ and
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/(both show liberated classified data, i havent checked yet, but some coleages of mine said there was stuff related there)ENGLISH

that´s all i have to say till now (whew, think i spoke too much)
cya, and keep up the good work

 

[General Kohl]

Possible heroes(all existed but failed...)

Comandante Carlos Lamarca : military who joined the guerrillas and leaded the atack agains the II army Headquarters, and leader of the Araguaia Guerrilla, killed in Action
he would be 37 years old in 1984

Marechal Teixera Lott : important brazilian military, veteran of the ww2, also a strong democrat and nacionalist, possibly socialist, defended the governament in the 1st coup( failed against Kubitsheck governament) and in 64 one(the coup´d etat)
assasinated in 1981, high possibility of murder by CIA, citated in gaspari most recent book, " The defeated Dictatorship" the forth book of his series about the dictatorship
he would be 76 years old in 1984

Ranks translation:
Comandante: Commander
Marechal: War hero, one rank more than General, or in USA ,a Five star General
soon i´ll put more

 

[sela1s1son]

So a few quicks comments right before I go through the information:

US Naval support (debateable on intent, but let's assume they were) is similar to how Teddy Roosevelt stationed some cruisers off Panama to support the Panamanians rebellion from Colombia physchologically. Is that right in what I'm reading?

Support from the embassy makes me think, and I may be wrong, of diplomatic support. Diplomatic support basically indicating who we like (or in some cases in the world, least dislike)

How did this one person know US what our government known? I find that harder to believe as unless it was already revealed by the American government, or a leak, no one knows what goes on behind closed doors. The 1980's still had the Cold War, so it is likely the USA would have the diplomatic attiude of opposing a possible communist regime. As an American myself I see every Communist nation in poverty, so I can see why the government takes that stance.

I'm going to read some more on this tonight, but I've had a long day so I'm going to take a nap first. ;-)

Quick question: I saw something about a Brazlian dictator earlier in the century (30's/40's) who based his dictatorship on Italian Facism/ Nazi Germany. I can't remember the name of the guy, but are these two connect per chance? Maybe reading some more on that could help me.

 

[General Kohl]

You were talking in last post about the psycollogical effect of the us navy in Brazilian shores, but you forget about the rifles, ammo, and tanks, that those ships gave to coup´s troops, also forgot about the troop carrier, full of marines and GIs ready to disembark on our shores, and the CIA factor, that sabotaged loyal troops,

About Colonel Batista testiment:
Colonel Batista was a know CIA operative in Brazil, also the CIA, after the end of the cold war confirmed his words in liberated classifield information, like Operation Playa, Operation Moonlight, and Operation Tycoon, that are problably in one of the 2 sites i showed you

About the question:
Yes, in 1930 our country was extremely agrarian, since the governament was under control of cofee farmers, which used a large frauding system to elect their candidates(PRP), but in 1930 there was an election and that one was the most frauded one( they put dead people voting, hired mercenaries to beat people in the ballots...)and Getulio Vargas, due to the PRP cheating lost the election, by a very small difference, 3 days after the election, Vargas´s vice President, Mr. Rosa, was murdered, by the bodyguard of the elected president, and the people from all other states(except Sao Paulo, where the coffee farmers where and where i live today)revolted and made a revolution that put Vargas in charge, president Vargas ruled from 1930 to 1945, in that time he did a lot of progress to our country, he instituted universal vote on our constitution( before him, olny white males, coud vote),he created the CLT, That gave workers a minumum wage(which was very high for that time), a maximum work jorney of 8 hours/p day(before the workers used to work 14 hours a day), 1 month of payed Vacations per year, and prohibited children to work and created the basic industries and infra-extruture in Brazil, like The National Steel Company(CBA) fully electrificated the country, and stoped the cofee buying police(a law that the PRP created to make the governament buy all coffee extras and that cut away 57 per cent of the PIB)
Some People claim that Getulio Vargas was facist, but he prohibited the Facist party in Brazil, and also the communist party,
Vargas was neither facist or communist, he was NATIONALIST,
and made a independent , non-aligned external politic, he is also considered the best President of Brazil by 89% of the people since 1945(Vox Populi and Datafolha data), he did so well in his 15 years, that when he made ellections(which he was prohibited to participate), the people wanted him to stay, and on the next election,in 1950,after a chaotic UDN-US supported governament, he was ellected with 81% of the votes, in this period he created Petrobras(Brazilian state Oil Company, nowadays the Biggest ocean oil company and the 2 Largest in the world, producing Oil sufficient for the entire Mercosul), but in this period there was a party, finaced by the US embassy, called UDN, that party caused a lot of trouble to democracy in Brazil, and mined the Vargas Presidency, in august,24 of 1954 Vargas was weakened and the UDN was going to make a coup(the same that happened in 64), and in that day Getulio Vargas Suicided and wrote his open testiment letter to Brazil, in which he told about the Us pressure in Brazil to take the power away from the people, the conservative conspiracy, and the foreign industries exploring the people, the efect of his suicide was so big that the UDN had to delay the coup(that rappened 20 years after, in 64), and all UDN politicians had to run away from the country, THE ANGRY MOB RAZED THE US EMBASSY, AND THE NEWSPAPERS THAT ATACKED VARGAS and no other UDN politician has been elected in 15 years.
damn, i aways cry when i remeber him

answering the question: NO, GETULIO VARGAS WAS NOT CONNECTED TO THE 64´s COUP, SINCE HE WAS AGAINST IT SINCE 1930.

 

[General Kohl]

The Will-Letter of President Getúlio Vargas!
One more time, the forces and the interests against the people had been
co-ordinated and again they are unchained on me.
They do not accuse to me, insult; they do not fight me, they calumniate
and they do not give the right to defend myself. They need to suffocate
my voice and to hinder my action, so that I do not continue to defend,
as I always defended, the people and mainly the humble ones. I follow
the destination that me is tax. After decades of domain and spoliation
of international the economic and financial groups, I became head of a
revolution and was successful. I initiated the release work and I
restored the regimen of social freedom.I had to resign. I came back to
the government in the arms of thepeople. The underground campaign of
The international groups entered into an alliance it of the rebelled
national groups against the regimen of guarantee of the work.
The law of extraordinary profits was withheld in the Congress. Against
the justice of the revision of the minimum wage if they had unchained
the hatred. I wanted to create national freedom in the potencialization
of our wealth through Petrobras and, badly starts this to function,
the wave of agitation if it augments. The Eletrobrás was blocked until
the desperation.They do not want that the worker to be free. They do
not want that the people to be independent. I inside assumed the
Government of the inflationary spiral that destruía the values of the
work. The profits of the foreign companies reached up to 500% to the
year. In the declarations of values of that we mattered evidenced
frauds of 100 million dollar per year existed more than. It came the
crisis of the coffee, valued our main product. We try to defend its
price and the reply it was a violent pressure on our economy, the point to be
obliged to yield. I have fought month the month, day the day, hour the
hour, resisting a constant, incessant pressure, everything supporting
in silence, everything forgetting, renouncing me exactly, to defend the
people, who if fall now abandoned. Nothing more I can give you, not to
be my blood. If the robbery birds want the blood of somebody, want to
continue sucking the Brazilian people, I offer in holocaust my life. I
choose this way to be always with you. When to humiliate you, you will
feel my soul suffering to your side. When the hunger to beat to your
door, you will feel in your chest the energy for the fight for you and
your children. When to slander, you will feel you in the thought the
force for the reaction. My sacrifice will keep you joined and my name
will be your flag of fight. Each drop of my blood will be an immortal
flame in your conscience and will keep the sacred vibration for the
resistance. To the hatred I answer with the pardon. And to that they
think that they had defeated me I answer with my victory. He was
enslaved of the people and today I become free myself for the perpetual
life. But this people of who I was enslaved more will not be enslaved
of nobody. My sacrifice will be forever in its soul and my blood will
be the price of its rescue. I fought against the spoliation of Brazil.
I fought against the spoliation of the people. I have fought of open
chest. The hatred, the infamies, the calumny had not abated my spirit.
I gave my life to you. Now I offer my death to you. With no regrets.
Calmly I give the first step in the way of the eternity and leave
life to enter in History."
(Rio De Janeiro, 23/08/54 - Getúlio Vargas)
god, i´m crying again

 

[sela1s1son]

Sorry, you'll have to forgive me on not being up on my Brazillian history. I've been busy the last two days so I haven't had time to read the material yet. I shall do that soon.

 

[General Kohl]

sorry , i just get too emotional when talking about Vargas era, it has been a great time to my country, if you need modern foot units, i got some stored with me

cya, and keep up this great work

 

[Xi 12]

Hey, I have an idea:
How about the cold war being between Rome, Russia, and America.

 

[General Kohl]

dude, this scenario is about what if Soviet Union winned the Cold War, we cant have Roman Empire in it, since the scenario is rebuiding the histoty AFTER THE 80´s

 

[sela1s1son]

I believe Xi 12 is referring to my previous scenario series (three in all): Rome in the Modern World. He is suggesting that I do the cold war in that timeline. I might be able to do that once this scenario is done.

 

[General Kohl]

here is the USSR anthem in ENGLISH, i taught it might be usefull

download it at

www.sovmusic.ru/mp3/ussr-eng.mp3

The Hymn of the Soviet Union


United Forever in Friendship and Labour,
Our mighty Republics will ever endure.
The Great Soviet Union will Live through the Ages.
The Dream of a People their fortress secure.
Long Live our Soviet Motherland, built by the People's mighty hand.
Long Live our People, United and Free.
Strong in our Friendship tried by fire. Long may our Crimson Flag Inspire,
Shining in Glory for all Men to see.
Through Days dark and stormy where Great Lenin Lead us
Our Eyes saw the Bright Sun of Freedom above
and Stalin our Leader with Faith in the People,
Inspired us to Build up the Land that we Love.
Long Live our Soviet Motherland, built by the People's mighty hand.
Long Live our People, United and Free.
Strong in our Friendship tried by fire. Long may our Crimson Flag Inspire,
Shining in Glory for all Men to see.
We fought for the Future, destroyed the invader,
and Brought to our Homeland the Laurels of Fame.
Our Glory will live in the Memory of Nations
and All Generations will Honour Her Name.
Long Live our Soviet Motherland, built by the People's mighty hand.
Long Live our People, United and Free.
Strong in our Friendship tried by fire. Long may our Crimson Flag Inspire,
Shining in Glory for all Men to see

cya , and keep up this great work

 

[sela1s1son]

I don't know why knowing the Soviet National Anthem would help me, and seeing as it won't change my own personal anti-communist ideas... I'm kinda baffled as to whyit would be usefull. No offense, but I just don't see how it'd be usefull.

 

[General Kohl]

dude, the idea was to put in the musics directory of the soviet civilization

 

[sela1s1son]

The problem is, I'm not sure about the legality of distrubuting it. In addition, the scenario in its completed form is going to be big enough as it is. If people want to download it themselves, that's fine... but I have reasons for not including music with my scenarios.

 

[General Kohl]

i had an idea to solve the Texas republic-USA separation issue, we could make Texas a right wing dictatorship, very close friends and allied to USA, but separated due to economic issues, regional powers would explain why both arent united, we can adapt this to use in the scenario

Keep up the great work, pal!

 

[Overlag]

how is this going Sela1s1son?

 

[sela1s1son]

Ok, I've recovered from a Computer error that forced me to redo a ton of work (that's why I didn't have an update for a while)

I'm going to need help with the following:

Civilopedia (I will have to approve material submitted, and reserve the right to edit)
Great Leaders and Sci Leaders for some of the Human player civs
Some leaders for 'new' nations. (IE Western Europe, and Eastern Europe among others including some newly commie nations)

If I can get people doing that, I can focus my efforts on units... which means I would then be able to complete this scenario.




So if you want to help out with this private message me with your e-mail and I'll contact you and we'll discuss how you can help.

 

[PolarisSLBM]

Is this still happening?

 

[sela1s1son]

Yes, now that I'm done with my independent study in Military History I can focus time on this. Sorry folks, PLEASE understand you're talking to a double major in History and Poly Sci!

Now where's that Coca-Cola and Chocolate???


--------edit--------------
How Ironic, the People's Republic of America gets Las Vegas... I wonder what they did with it? ;-) I always found it funny in the movie wargames, when the two kids are playing the Soviets, they decide Las Vegas should be a target... I guess that city doesn't fit well into a commie nation (PRA). ;-) I need it it for the borders to align better though.


I'm going to need names and heroes for the following nations:
People's Republic of America (also includes Colombia, and a couple South American nations... and has Vancouver as well).
People's Republic of Madison
Texas Republic (includes much of the Midwest)

Help! ;-)