My personal thread: Clarification of certain game mechanics

[Mitchum]

Is it better to whip right after or right before a city grows to the next size? Granary obviously already long in place.

There isn't an easy answer to this question because "it depends..."

If you're whipping away citizens working unimproved tiles, shame on you... but also go ahead and whip away.

If you're whipping a military unit, worker or settler, more than likely it's better to whip sooner rather than later to get the most use out of said unit.

If you're whipping infrastructure, consider the gain from having that building one turn sooner vs. the productive tiles your soon-to-be-whipped citizens are working at the time.

The sooner you whip, the sooner the wears off...

Will whipping now cost 3 pops while if you wait one turn to grow it only costs 2 pops? Do you care about losing that extra pop? Are you trying to maximize whip overflow into something else where waiting a turn helps?

Like everything in Civ, it's situational. In general, whipping sooner is better in my opinion.

 

[sampsa]

In general, whipping sooner is better in my opinion.

This. Especially building a worker/settler for one extra turn to maximize overflow is just (you convert 1 into 1 which is a very poor rate) unless the point is to overflow into a wonder. Also, usually whipping away as many pop as possible is the best, as the penalty is the same.

 

[Seraiel]

I think Imperator Knödel's question was aimed at where the whip is the most efficient Mitchum, and that is exactly at directly before growing and directly after growing.

Ofc. there are more things to consider, like you said, how much pop is whipped away is probably the most important one. Sooner is not always better though, missing out a turn on a great tile makes you lose more yields than you gain from needing to fill a smaller food-bar.

I thought of writing that every whip needs to be calculated in single, to get a definite answer, but rules like the one I gave to IK are very good already, because at most times, one doesn't want to use a calculator for getting 1 more or 1 more . A big factor is i. e. also how much smaller the food-bar when whipping 1T before regrowth would be, which i. e. is not trivial on Quick speed, because of the scaling (size 1 = 14, size 2 = 16 (+2), size 3 = 17 (+1) , size 4 = 18 (+1) iirc i. e. ) .

 

[Seraiel]

Thx to sampsa for explaining to me why other players said, that "whipping Workers / Settlers always showed to be way more efficient" (quote by bcool) . Learned something again .

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

If you're whipping away citizens working unimproved tiles, shame on you... but also go ahead and whip away.

If you're whipping a military unit, worker or settler, more than likely it's better to whip sooner rather than later to get the most use out of said unit.

If you're whipping infrastructure, consider the gain from having that building one turn sooner vs. the productive tiles your soon-to-be-whipped citizens are working at the time.

The sooner you whip, the sooner the wears off...

Will whipping now cost 3 pops while if you wait one turn to grow it only costs 2 pops? Do you care about losing that extra pop? Are you trying to maximize whip overflow into something else where waiting a turn helps?

I don't work unimproved tiles.

In this case it's about a military unit I don't need immediately. I'm Spiritual and in Vassalage + Theocracy to maximize XP while I'm spamming units.

I'm Aztecs and have plenty of happiness so this is not an issue.

I also have the Kremlin and Sushi so practically everything is dirt cheap.

I think Imperator Knödel's question was aimed at where the whip is the most efficient Mitchum, and that is exactly at directly before growing and directly after growing.

Ofc. there are more things to consider, like you said, how much pop is whipped away is probably the most important one. Sooner is not always better though, missing out a turn on a great tile makes you lose more yields than you gain from needing to fill a smaller food-bar.

I thought of writing that every whip needs to be calculated in single, to get a definite answer, but rules like the one I gave to IK are very good already, because at most times, one doesn't want to use a calculator for getting 1 more or 1 more . A big factor is i. e. also how much smaller the food-bar when whipping 1T before regrowth would be, which i. e. is not trivial on Quick speed, because of the scaling (size 1 = 14, size 2 = 16 (+2), size 3 = 17 (+1) , size 4 = 18 (+1) iirc i. e. ) .

Thank you Seraiel, for understanding what I was asking and for getting my name completely right.

The game that prompted me to ask this question is an all human PBEM, currently in the 1800s on an Archipelago map with normal speed. I'm using the time before I get Assembly Line to spam Machine Guns and Privateers/Destroyers as I neglected my military recently on my quest to get both the Kremlin and Sid's Sushi, which I btw achieved.

 

[SpK]

What affects how many using a Great Engineer is worth? And how?

Sometimes they can almost finish the SoL, sometimes they are only +540 toward Notre Dame, but will finish it in a different city....
Obviously population, but I am assuming era also?

 

[Pollina]

The formula is:

hammers = 500 + city_population*20 (normal speed)

That's 520 in a pop1 city or 700 in a pop10 city, for example.

 

[SpK]

The formula is:

hammers = 500 + city_population*20 (normal speed)

That's 520 in a pop1 city or 700 in a pop10 city, for example.

Ahh, great, thanks for the quick answer

 

[Seraiel]

It is modified by game speed:

Hammers = SabotageCost / InfluenceCivicsCost * 67 (Quick speed)
Hammers = SabotageCost / InfluenceCivicsCost * 150 (Epic speed)
Hammers = SabotageCost / InfluenceCivicsCost * 200 (Marathon speed)​

(5000 / 800) * 200 = 1250/1500H

Sorry if this ruined your cheese victory.

I just lost the SoL by 1T because I felt safe, with having calculated that Mansa only had 1165/1500H in it, and he was making 59H / T. The worst is, that I could have whipped it without problems. How is such a big deviation from the formula possible? It's even worse. I re-calculated with the formula from DanF Tachy linked before Doshin's formula, and according to that, Mansa even had 66H less in the SoL. I thought AIs don't get a discount on Wonders? Mansa could neither whip, nor rush-buy. Great game that now got a big hit. I'm really .

 

[SpK]

Did he pop/have a Great Engineer stored?

sometimes they have 2 or 3 floating around

I can't think of anything else

 

[Pollina]

I thought AIs don't get a discount on Wonders?

They do!

The normal AI discount doesn't apply to world wonders (iAIConstructPercent, 40% on deity). But there's another multiplier, iAIPerEraModifier, that applies to pretty much anything, including world wonders.

On deity, that one gives the AI an additional 5% per era discount. It starts with 0% in the Ancient era, but goes up to 25% (modern era).

Assuming your Mansa had already reached Industrial era, SoL only cost him 1200 (1275 for Renaissance era).

 

[Tatran]

I just lost the SoL by 1T because I felt safe,

I only use a Great Engineer on a wonder when the message box says "finished".
I've lost wonders too with 1 turn to go. This crap is still in civ5.

 

[Pangaea]

Pollina beat me to it, but AIs do get a slight bonus on wonders too, based on era. Noticed it from city inspection while an AI was building a wonder.

AIs also can whip wonders, so the early finish may be due to that.

 

[Seraiel]

AIs also can whip wonders, so the early finish may be due to that.[/QUOTE]

Did he pop/have a Great Engineer stored?

sometimes they have 2 or 3 floating around

I can't think of anything else

Mansa did already rush it, that's why he had so many in it at all . Double GE would have left me like this .

They do!

The normal AI discount doesn't apply to world wonders (iAIConstructPercent, 40% on deity). But there's another multiplier, iAIPerEraModifier, that applies to pretty much anything, including world wonders.

On deity, that one gives the AI an additional 5% per era discount. It starts with 0% in the Ancient era, but goes up to 25% (modern era).

Assuming your Mansa had already reached Industrial era, SoL only cost him 1200 (1275 for Renaissance era).

Pollina beat me to it, but AIs do get a slight bonus on wonders too, based on era. Noticed it from city inspection while an AI was building a wonder.

Thx for your answers mates . So in future, I have to know in which era the AI is and calculate that too. I hat such $hit, the AI is strong enough in the modern ages anyhow, why give it another bonus that lets it 1T Infantries out of its fully templed 10 cities instead of letting it build Factories and PPs? Whatever, I'm happy as long as I learned something that helps me prevent such fails in the future . Thx again .

 

[Pangaea]

Can "you declared war on our friend" disappear, even after a long time, or is every single point 100% permanent?

 

[sampsa]

Can "you declared war on our friend" disappear, even after a long time, or is every single point 100% permanent?

I have never seen it disappear.

 

[Pangaea]

Hmm, damnit. Thought one had disappeared in a game earlier, but I must have imagined it then.

 

[Pangaea]

Can "you declared war on our friend" disappear, even after a long time, or is every single point 100% permanent?

Does indeed look it's permanent.

From Cathy, but same for all I believe. Hang on, some get -2 I think

<MemoryAttitudePercent>
	<MemoryType>MEMORY_DECLARED_WAR_ON_FRIEND</MemoryType>
	<iMemoryAttitudePercent>-100</iMemoryAttitudePercent>
</MemoryAttitudePercent>

Explanation (which I hope is correct)

MemoryAttitudePercents
How much past events affect attitude of this leader (in percent). The possible values for event types are defined both in the BasicInfos\CIV4MemoryInfos.xml file, and in the SDK.

(These are percentages. 100 = +1 attitude, -500 = -5 attitude)

No mention of this variable under MemoryDecay, so it looks all these variables (quite a few of them) are permanent.

 

[Tatran]

Gandhi is the only leader who gives -2 for declaring war on one of his friends.
Also, he won't give any negative diplo modifiers if you say no to one of his requests or demands.

I've noticed when your relationship status has been improved (example: cautious -> pleased) that leader will contact you very soon and makes an annoying request or demand.

 

[Pangaea]

This thread is way too good to be hidden way deep in the forum vault.

(I was looking for how many hammers an AI have invested in a build, via espionage costs. Sometimes it is useful).