Moderator Action: keep it civil, please.
My tactics
- Thread starter Deathwing
- Start date
Seriously? immortal AIs do NOT have scores under 300 at 600bc, theyre usually closer to 1000. I'm sure you're not lying though, you wouldn't do that. Why don't you do a demo game for the forums just to prove that you're better than all us plebes toiling away at emp/immortal.
Oh my... deathwing, how exactly do you start new single player games? Do you actually start a single player game, or do you open some multiplayer game with you as the only human and some AI's in it?
[Everybody who thinks what I'm thinking: please don't tell him yet.
]
Some details you might want to improve:
- you built a workshop on one of your capital's floodplains. This gives -1
+1 
atm - why the hell would you do this... ? You build another workshop somewhere else, but that capital workshop is really bad.
-you're working unimproved tiles in all of your save games, for crying out loud.
- you have pigs in your capitals BFC, yet you did not research AH early on. You waited until you popped this from a hut in 1890 BC. You even researched (? Or popped?) masonry before it, even though this didn't bring you any advantage at this point.
- the city of "Blood" is entirely useless and always will be.
- it doesn't look like you're not paying attention to specialising your cities. It looks like you're trying really hard to avoid specialization.
- Ok, so you're keeping these food resources for later backfilling cities... really? You've settled crappy cities while you could easily have placed a city with grassland corn and grassland pigs in its BFC, and now both these resources are in your empire, yet outside any city's BFC. The grassland pigs is the strongest tile in your entire empire, and you're not using it...!
[Everybody who thinks what I'm thinking: please don't tell him yet.
]Some details you might want to improve:
- you built a workshop on one of your capital's floodplains. This gives -1
+1 atm - why the hell would you do this... ? You build another workshop somewhere else, but that capital workshop is really bad.-you're working unimproved tiles in all of your save games, for crying out loud.
- you have pigs in your capitals BFC, yet you did not research AH early on. You waited until you popped this from a hut in 1890 BC. You even researched (? Or popped?) masonry before it, even though this didn't bring you any advantage at this point.
- the city of "Blood" is entirely useless and always will be.
- it doesn't look like you're not paying attention to specialising your cities. It looks like you're trying really hard to avoid specialization.
- Ok, so you're keeping these food resources for later backfilling cities... really? You've settled crappy cities while you could easily have placed a city with grassland corn and grassland pigs in its BFC, and now both these resources are in your empire, yet outside any city's BFC. The grassland pigs is the strongest tile in your entire empire, and you're not using it...!
My 2 bits worth.
Moving to a plains hill for your capital will cost you 2 (or more) food; 9 (or more) science and 1 hammer. The lost hammer is made up very quickly; the others are less easy to do anything about. After about 20 turns you will be up by 18 hammers and down by at least 2 food and 9 science. You may not be able to whip until one turn later (because of the lost turn of food) and you will certainly discover initial technologies one turn later. On the other hand you will build a bit faster. IMO, the benefit is not strong enough to make it a standard tactic. It depends on what specials you gain and lose. I would never consider moving inland in order to build on a plains hill.
In general, I think the initial build and research should be highly situational. I want to exploit my food special(s) so I will often start by building a workboat or worker, researching fishing, agriculture or animal husbandry as required. If I need to research before I can exploit my food special, I will usually build a warrior while waiting to discover the required tech. I would almost always allow bronze working to wait until I have the technology to exploit at least one of my food specials.
I'd require some convincing that multiple scouts are beneficial. You may get an extra goody hut; you may be able to exploit them for fog busting; they may help you plan your growth better; but they cost hammers that could be spent on something else.
RJM
Moving to a plains hill for your capital will cost you 2 (or more) food; 9 (or more) science and 1 hammer. The lost hammer is made up very quickly; the others are less easy to do anything about. After about 20 turns you will be up by 18 hammers and down by at least 2 food and 9 science. You may not be able to whip until one turn later (because of the lost turn of food) and you will certainly discover initial technologies one turn later. On the other hand you will build a bit faster. IMO, the benefit is not strong enough to make it a standard tactic. It depends on what specials you gain and lose. I would never consider moving inland in order to build on a plains hill.
In general, I think the initial build and research should be highly situational. I want to exploit my food special(s) so I will often start by building a workboat or worker, researching fishing, agriculture or animal husbandry as required. If I need to research before I can exploit my food special, I will usually build a warrior while waiting to discover the required tech. I would almost always allow bronze working to wait until I have the technology to exploit at least one of my food specials.
I'd require some convincing that multiple scouts are beneficial. You may get an extra goody hut; you may be able to exploit them for fog busting; they may help you plan your growth better; but they cost hammers that could be spent on something else.
RJM
Yeah the plains hill start is one of the few things I really like about his strategy.
btw, Cusanus, I think your question about how he starts the game is a brilliant guess. I was so confused for a while, I thought I must be playing this game entirely the wrong way.
Deathwing: the biggest problem is probably that you want to have this single fixed, detailed strategy to use in every game. You need to be flexible and adjust to each individually game. Sometimes you'll mess up, it happens, just roll with it and get better.
btw, Cusanus, I think your question about how he starts the game is a brilliant guess. I was so confused for a while, I thought I must be playing this game entirely the wrong way.
Deathwing: the biggest problem is probably that you want to have this single fixed, detailed strategy to use in every game. You need to be flexible and adjust to each individually game. Sometimes you'll mess up, it happens, just roll with it and get better.
Sorry if we came on a little strong. But from the strategy you posted and the save games it's just 100% clear that you're not ready to play on emperor/immortal/deity. Now you did ask for advice, and we do want to give you advice. But you will have to tell us what level you're really playing, and what problems you're really having (from the comments it seems you need some help on early research and city specialisation?). However, if you insist on being an immortal player, who can pull off wonderspams, then there's really not much we can help you with. Because i doubt many of us can pull that off ourselves.
So basically you have a choice here: you can either insist on being a high level player who pulls off wonderspams (and sorry to say, but make a fool of yourself a little bit ;-)). Or you can just ask us what you'd really want to learn (but this means having to admit playing on noble (?) ), and then we'll be happy to help you.
Well the third option would be making a live vid where you show off your wonderspamming skills on immortal, and then laughing at all of us. But somehow i doubt that's going to happen...
It's up to you.
shyuhe
Deity
Stonehenge with this build order on deity is risky. Immortal, I'd say 50/50 (depends on the other civs on the map). Emperor, not so bad. 8 squares away from your capital is quite far though. It's better to just settle your second city with a good food source (wet corn or pigs), 2-3 hills, and a strategic resource.
Archery is only necessary in some situations. Strangely enough, I find it most necessary on immortal of all levels. Diety AI fill up the land and fogbust pretty well so unless you have a large backyard, archery is unnecessary.
*Research masonry
*Capital chop-rushes Great Wall
[/quote]
This is pretty late in the build queue. If you really want the wall, build it before stonehenge.
Unnecessary wonder. Skip it.
Monarchy, code of laws (religion), and metal casting are good choices.
Young cities are better off growing and building non-workers and non-settlers. Let your older cities build the workers and settlers when they're at the happy cap.
Pyramids this late in the build queue is a big risk. Better skip it or start building it earlier.
Pottery is probably better earlier in the tech order. It really speeds up your overall development and helps pay for new cities. Aesthetics is a better trading tech on immortal and deity. On emperor, alphabet may serve you better depending on your neighbors.
Look at your neighbors. They're generally more important than what the majority is. If your neighbor is a heathen Monty, you're better off with no religion or in his religion.
Score isn't the deciding factor. Tech position and overall land is a bigger consideration. You want to balance out the AI, not grow a runaway AI.
I'd forego this.
You don't need more than one religion. Music for the great artist is good though.
Binary research is better. It's highly unlikely you'll keep a 100% slider on anything higher than monarch anyways.
A better build order is culture -- granary -- forge -- library, with a courthouse if your city maintenance nears 10gpt. Monasteries should only go in culturally pressed cities, cities with the AP religion, or in large science cities. Same with temples.
You probably mean optics. The +1 isn't that useful unless you're planning an oversea invasion.
Great artists are probably better spent on golden ages unless you're really pressed up against a neighbor in a culture fight.
Wonders I'd rush with an engineer would be the Pyramids (not likely to be available), Great Library, Taj Mahal (if there's a risk of losing it), and Kremlin (almost always useful). There are a few others I'd consider rushing but they're more situational.
The first scientist on an academy isn't bad, but subsequent scientists are probably better spent bulbing (renaissance techs) or settling for the long-term. If you have an excellent second commerce city, then maybe it's worth an academy but that's pretty unlikely.
I'd burn spies on golden ages too. No need to wait to fill your land. Using a golden age after you get civil service can be a good time to swap civics as well as giving you a good jump on liberalism.
Immediate peace isn't good in most situations unless your enemy is huge. Better to snipe a city or two off, especially if you have a dogpile going.
Only build as many mines as you can actually work. Lumbermills aren't that good - the forests are better chopped in the BC years. Preserves in the tundra can make a good national park city later. Don't road every tile in your empire - it's a waste of worker turns. Same with mines - you can only pop resources in hill tiles you work.
Don't mix panzers with artillery. You kill the mobility of the tanks with slow moving artillery. Either use air force, spies, or naval bombardment.
Consider what the other AI are doing before you capitulate or OB/trade. Namely, pick your friends and enemies wisely.
State property is stronger than free market unless you have a corporation or LOTS of oversea trade routes. Free speech is situational, as is universal suffrage. Both need lots of cottages.
Don't build non production/growth buildings in pure workshop cities. They will never generate much return.
drlake
Emperor
Thanks, shyuhe. Useful commentary for those of us working our way up.
Ok, since this thread doesn't seem to go on, I might just as well tell you what I think is "wrong" with deathwing's games.
Deathwing, you're not playing the game on immortal level.
Or, more precisly: you are, but the AI is not. I couldn't really find out how you started the game from your savegames, but the AI is doing so much worse than it would ever be on Immortal. I guess you're playing a multiplayer game with only one human, setting your own difficulty level to immortal/deity.
This does mean that your cities become unhappy/unhealthy very quickly, as they would on immortal. It does not, however, change the AI bonusses. To try the difference, simply start a single player custom game, seven players, all standard settings, and try to go for all your wonders. Good luck!
Deathwing, you're not playing the game on immortal level.
Or, more precisly: you are, but the AI is not. I couldn't really find out how you started the game from your savegames, but the AI is doing so much worse than it would ever be on Immortal. I guess you're playing a multiplayer game with only one human, setting your own difficulty level to immortal/deity.
This does mean that your cities become unhappy/unhealthy very quickly, as they would on immortal. It does not, however, change the AI bonusses. To try the difference, simply start a single player custom game, seven players, all standard settings, and try to go for all your wonders. Good luck!
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