Yes, if your slider is close to 100% science, which it usually is at this point. In some games you can't run a slider this high (think big empire with UN forced Enviromentalism) so then a commerce WS is viable. Setting such a merchant farm up can be annoying and can often be bypassed totally and just use WS if you have shrines or HQs.
National Wonder combos
- Thread starter Laurwin
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Yes, if your slider is close to 100% science, which it usually is at this point. In some games you can't run a slider this high (think big empire with UN forced Enviromentalism) so then a commerce WS is viable. Setting such a merchant farm up can be annoying and can often be bypassed totally and just use WS if you have shrines or HQs.
1st. WS goes to a shrine city unless in a horrid location.
2nd Corp are found in the WS city w/o doubt.
One can still work cottages but that's not what makes a good WS city. Generally, I dislike cottages [there are all but flexible] anyways and I'd rather have food (whip)/production there than grow cottages.
2nd Corp are found in the WS city w/o doubt.
One can still work cottages but that's not what makes a good WS city. Generally, I dislike cottages [there are all but flexible] anyways and I'd rather have food (whip)/production there than grow cottages.
popejubal
Emperor
My own preference for making Medic III/Woodsman III super medics is to get a couple of units promoted to Wood III... and then don't risk them in battles under 95% and don't bother with the Great General.
Seriously, look at how many turns the healing takes, not at how many hit points per turn you get from the super medic.
No medic at all takes 10 turns to heal a 50 HP unit in enemy territory.
Wood III takes 2 turns.
Wood III/Medic III takes 2 turns.
In most circumstances, Wood III takes 1 more turn to heal a unit than Wood III/Medic III and it often takes the same number of turns. Wood III/Medic III is a waste of a Great General in BtS.
It's like building West Point in your Heroic Epic city. Sure, there's synergy there, but wouldn't you rather have an extra 1600 extra hammers worth of settled GG promoted units and build West Point in some other high hammer city so that you'll end up with a second 10 XP tank producing city?
My own favorite pairing for Heroic Epic is...
Heroic Epic + only ever build units plus occasional required
/
buildings-I'm not going to let those hammers get spent on anything other than units if I can avoid it. I'm settling Great Generals in that city. Any hammers that don't go to units are seriously misspent in almost every case.
popejubal
Emperor
I build Red Cross occasionally, but when I do, I generally use it to get March on Rifle/Infantry units. With 5 XP, I get Combat I/Free Medic I/March or toss in Anti-Gunpowder promotion if I'm Aggressive. I like March units, so I'm willing to build Red Cross if I happen to have a spare high production city at that point in the game.
An extra 640 hammers, you mean, if you don't have Stone and only a Forge. 356 with Stone and Forge. 291 with Stone, Forge, Industrious.
You've neglected to consider the fact that said second city can be building units instead of West Point, so the cost in hammers-worth of units is the difference between the number of hammers of units the HE city could have built and the number the other city could have built; this is equal to the number of base hammers it takes to build WP (and hence the forgone hammer bonus from HE during that time).
Why are you including Forges in that calculation? You do know that they also boost military unit production so the relative end result is the same with or without them?
WP could be more useful, if it was unlocked by a tech that's researched more often; or if it didn't come at such a critical time military-wise. Often the critical battles happen at this time and you should be building units and not expensive buildings. Often said wars also net you enough GGs to get level 4 units from your HE city, after which the returns on extra +exp start to diminish too much for WP to matter enough there.
About Red Cross and M3/WM3 medics - IMO this point is null because it's very easy to get a regular unit as WM3 - just fight a couple of battles at 99% with a brand new WM2. If you want a 2-move WM3 you can make a secondary healer GG.
WP could be more useful, if it was unlocked by a tech that's researched more often; or if it didn't come at such a critical time military-wise. Often the critical battles happen at this time and you should be building units and not expensive buildings. Often said wars also net you enough GGs to get level 4 units from your HE city, after which the returns on extra +exp start to diminish too much for WP to matter enough there.
About Red Cross and M3/WM3 medics - IMO this point is null because it's very easy to get a regular unit as WM3 - just fight a couple of battles at 99% with a brand new WM2. If you want a 2-move WM3 you can make a secondary healer GG.
popejubal
Emperor
No, I haven't neglected that the second city could be building units. I had originally intended to put 800, since that's the unit hammer difference between HE hammers going to West Point vs. another city's hammers going to WP, but you also have to think about those settled Great Generals.
Seriously, who doesn't have at least a couple of Great Generals settled in the HE city by the time that West Point is available?
I know that I find CR II/III Maces quite a bit more useful than CR I maces. I find Combat III/March Cavalry more useful than Combat II Cavalry. I find CR III Tanks vastly superior to CR I/II Tanks. It's not just the difference in hammers, it's also the quality of what those hammers are producing.
When you build West Point in the Heroic Epic city, you're not just throwing away hammer multipliers. You're also throwing away Great General boosts on those hammers.
Aren't you?
I hope you are....
You could always rush West Point with a Great Engineer if you got one. Might not need any other wonder if you are going for domination or they just aren't available. But I've gone away from building west point and heroic epic in the same city. When I play Charismatic these days I don't aim for 20xp producing city anymore, but rather multiple 13XP cities. And if you start settling great generals in HE city you'll reach it quick. Then you can build west point and settle some generals in the Iron Works city for a second 13XP city.
The relative end result is NOT the same - the 25% bonus of the Forge effectively reduces the 100% bonus of the HE (125% -> 225% is an 80% boost). It very much matters.
No, 800 is NOT the unit hammer difference, since you have to consider the impact of other production boosts, which relatively reduce the impact of the HE.popejubal said:
Note that I confined my argument to the hammer cost, not the promotions. That was deliberate, as the hammer cost is where you were incorrect.popejubal said:
You do indeed have a point in the case where you have more GGs in the HE city than the second city. That's not universal, though, and the benefit of stacking WP with those GG XP should not be disregarded, so not so clear-cut as you imply. One of several factors that should be considered.
Ok I realize that since the collateral promotion for tanks no longer works (I admit that I really liked how the armour worked in the older patches 
)
why put CR promotion on tanks though? wouldn't the high strength of the tanks be better utilized when using the normal combat promotions, it would also open up the pinch promotion for tanks, making them much more versatile (lets say you wanted to give a SoD THAT's outside a city, a good whacking.)
I mean sure, you can use the higher attack strength against city defenders, but most of the time you can already weaken the defenders with aerial bombardment in any case. CR3 sounds a bit like overkill to me. Combat promotion also helps the tanks in defense, should they need to defend in the first place.
) why put CR promotion on tanks though? wouldn't the high strength of the tanks be better utilized when using the normal combat promotions, it would also open up the pinch promotion for tanks, making them much more versatile (lets say you wanted to give a SoD THAT's outside a city, a good whacking.)
I mean sure, you can use the higher attack strength against city defenders, but most of the time you can already weaken the defenders with aerial bombardment in any case. CR3 sounds a bit like overkill to me. Combat promotion also helps the tanks in defense, should they need to defend in the first place.
popejubal
Emperor
This, I've done. I don't mind losing a single turn to Heroic Epic unit production, but I certainly don't want to miss the 10-15 turns that it often takes.
My point, exactly.
Also, the Heroic Epic city will generally be the best production city that you have in the early-ish part of the game. That will often not be your best production city later in the game. Why not go ahead and make a second military unit production city that can enhance your plans for expansion. Even if you don't have Protective/Charismatic/Aggressive, I find that two 10 XP units are usually substantially better than one unit even with 30 XP.
As long as I can hit 10 XP, I'm happy. In fact, I'm delighted!
popejubal
Emperor
Note that I explicitly mentioned promotions and settled Great Generals in my first post since that is immensely important in the strategic decision of where to put West Point (and even whether to build it at all).
Also, I was trying to make a point without overloading the reader with several pages of numbers. Yes, Forge, Factory, Organized Religion, Power, Stone can all make a difference in the number of hammers that would have gone to units that are instead "lost" to West Point. Do you really think that would have made a whole lot of sense for this thread?
There is a time and a place for intense number crunching. This didn't seem to be the time or the place. Was Kepler incorrect when he said that the orbits of the planets describe arcs of equal area in equal time? I'd say that was a pretty brilliant observation and that it is still extremely useful in figuring out all sorts of things today. Sure, Relativity put a (very) small kink in the observation when Einstein noticed that mass and energy both mess with distance and time. Kepler's observations are incomplete. So are Einsteins. I wouldn't call either of them "incorrect" though.
The fact that someone left a bunch of unnecessary calculations out of a basic explanation of an idea might just mean that they were trying to give a basic explanation and not that they were incorrect.
If I can have two Tanks with CR III or one Tank with CR III/Combat I, which do you think I want?
Seriously?
I absolutely agree that there are some cases where I will end up with WP in the Heroic Epic city. I just played a Gods of Old game as Boudica two weeks ago that was memorable because I was producing one Commando tank each turn with my Heroic Epic/West Point city and it was West Point that gave me enough XP for Commando.
That doesn't happen very often, though.
I love Commando tanks, but I was not about to shut down tank production for 9 turns just to get them. I was willing to shut down tank production for 1 turn in order to give the Great Engineer time to build West Point.
Edit: replaced "marble" with "stone" above for West Point production multipliers.
I heard that TMIT uses national park+ globe theater, to get infinite happiness and some extra health to boot, excellent idea, never even used my national parks!
National park removes coal access from city though, so that using it together with ironworks doesn't work right?
National park removes coal access from city though, so that using it together with ironworks doesn't work right?
That combo is only good in OCC, as otherwise using GT for a drafting paradise is better (and those won't grow big enough to worry about unhealthiness). Also using Forest Preserves is kind of countersynergic with a building that gives a high happy cap, as there's less room for farms. In OCC it's very very good though, even with NP invalidating half of the Ironworks and Coal Plants (better be on a river).
City Raider
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2009
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- 133
Has anyone tried NP in their Oxford (Capital) City?
1. I never really have enough forests left to justify it and
2. I always seem to put it in a late founded city (usually around tundra) with 10+ forrests and 1-2 good food resources.
It can quickly turn into a good secondary GP farm, but I'm wondering how many forests would you have to leave in your capital to justify it over say NE? Or would it still be weaker than just cottaging or running farms + specialists. (assume grassland forests)
The upside is you could have a purely science GP farm. I'm thinking if you can leave 5-6 forests that would give you 5-6 free scientists going through the maximum science multipliers. With 6 forests that still gives you 14 workable tiles for most of the game.
Would you need more than 5-6 forrests to even consider?
In this case I'd put the NE in a secondary city with a wonder if you built any one of the early wonders such as GW/Mids/Oracle/Parth.
Just wondering if anyone has done this and how were their results.
1. I never really have enough forests left to justify it and
2. I always seem to put it in a late founded city (usually around tundra) with 10+ forrests and 1-2 good food resources.
It can quickly turn into a good secondary GP farm, but I'm wondering how many forests would you have to leave in your capital to justify it over say NE? Or would it still be weaker than just cottaging or running farms + specialists. (assume grassland forests)
The upside is you could have a purely science GP farm. I'm thinking if you can leave 5-6 forests that would give you 5-6 free scientists going through the maximum science multipliers. With 6 forests that still gives you 14 workable tiles for most of the game.
Would you need more than 5-6 forrests to even consider?
In this case I'd put the NE in a secondary city with a wonder if you built any one of the early wonders such as GW/Mids/Oracle/Parth.
Just wondering if anyone has done this and how were their results.
popejubal
Emperor
National Park makes Iron Works less attractive, but it doesn't completely wreck it.
I did that one as the Japanese and had a very good time with it because I had abundant health to make up for all the
buildings/resources. Also, the Shale plant gives power without access to Coal, so I did get the +50% production bonus for power in the NP city that most civs can't get as easily.Also, I wanted lots of Great Engineers in that game, so having a zillion free specialists that I could stick in a dozen Engineer slots worked out well for me.
I wouldn't do it in most games, but it's not the worst combination that you could ever make.
Wood III only gives an additional 15% per turn, the effects you are talking about are Wood III plus Medic I, which is an additional 2 promotions (unless of course you have the Red Cross.)
A supermedic isn't really there to heal 50 HP units. It's there to heal the siege that does the initial assault and has withdrawn at 15HP, or the March units. And in industrial era warfare, one turn is a lot. A half-decent empire can churn out 3-4 units in one turn and transport them to the front via railroads.
A Medic III has 25% healing to surrounding tiles, which can also be fairly useful. I also wouldn't say that it is a waste of a Great General. Around the time the Red Cross comes around the military production city typically has enough settled GGs to pump out level IV units, and getting them up to level V isn't really worth it.
popejubal
Emperor
True, I was thinking ahead about the Red Cross since this was the Wonder combos thread and got my signals crossed there.
That's a good point about the siege units. I hadn't really thought too much about those so much as the city busters that take down the bulk of the troops after I throw the siege at the city.
I guess I never thought too much about them since I considered them to be fairly disposeable and just continuously build them during the invasion so that I don't have to wait for the wounded ones to heal before moving on to the next city. I'm glad that someone finally gave me a decent use for the Super-duper-mega-medic with Wood III/Medic III.
I still find myself reluctant to spend a Great General on one of these just because there are so many other things that I would like to spend the GG on, but I'll keep it in mind for future games, especially in the Mace/Trebuchet vs. Longbow era and the Cannon/[Musket-Rifle] eras.
The benefits of quick healing, besides the obvious benefit that you have to build less units because there are less units hanging around idly being fixed, is that you can attack more often with the same units and they will get more XP, more promotions and get even more effective at their job, resulting in fewer losses. The benefits of that are obviously less hammers needed to replace less units and lower war weariness, but a fairly hidden but potentially rather big effect is that the AI's assessment of how the war is going is for a significant part based on the ratio between your losses and their losses (this might be a derivative of the actual power ratios). Destroy a number of AI units with minimal losses on your side and the AI is quickly willing to make peace or capitulate.
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