newfangle
hates you.
In the interest of simplying the debate, change the title to "Nationalism is not Good."
Nationalism is not Good
- Thread starter newfangle
- Start date
Pillager
League of Empire Loyalist
Sorry Newfangle, I'd just like to add my name to the incredulity to the opinions you express above. No offence intended of course 
Nationalism is not dead in Europe. Patriotism is dead (if it ever existed) amongst a certain section of the political élite, but that's very different.
People are perhaps more aware of the dangers of nationalism, but that doesn't equate to its demise.
As for it being somehow near to its end on a global scale, I think that's, hmm, drivel.
People *need* something to follow, an identity to which to belong, and, no, not the human race before you suggest it
, as we/they need to have something to identify against.
Once we are invaded by aliens, then we might identify ourselves as humans first and last, but not before.
Until that day, we will continue to attach ourselves to a banner, an anthem, a monarch, or whatever.
Nationalism is not dead in Europe. Patriotism is dead (if it ever existed) amongst a certain section of the political élite, but that's very different.
People are perhaps more aware of the dangers of nationalism, but that doesn't equate to its demise.
As for it being somehow near to its end on a global scale, I think that's, hmm, drivel.
People *need* something to follow, an identity to which to belong, and, no, not the human race before you suggest it
, as we/they need to have something to identify against.Once we are invaded by aliens, then we might identify ourselves as humans first and last, but not before.
Until that day, we will continue to attach ourselves to a banner, an anthem, a monarch, or whatever.
MrPresident
Anglo-Saxon Liberal
The British are too cynical for patriotism. If we are not talking about our weather, we are talking about what is wrong with the country. I don't know about the rest of Europe but I think this feeling is probably widespread.
newfangle
hates you.
lol! I wasn't actually asking to have to changed, but whatever. Its fine be me.
newfangle
hates you.
Actually, that's probably closer to what I originally thought when making this thread. Its all the drugs I tell you!
Damien
Emperor
I believe nationalism is dead in Western Europe.It is where it was born and where it died.(in 1945).
People were disgusted with capitalism and nationalism,after WW2 communists got 25% in France and 30% in Italy.
Someone said a french is french,a greek is a greek,etc.
I recall that there's no french citizenship,greek citizenship,etc anymore.It was replaced in '93 by the european citizenship.
Nationalism stems from the tribal mindset:the national superiority,epic history and nationality based on blood(common ancesters).
After the french revolution,it was thought that French stem from Gauls and that the aristocracy stemmed from Franks.Napoleon based the french nationality on blood and,until WW2,french heard"our ancestors the Gauls" in history class.
But now it's dead,does Italy claim Corsica,Nice and Savoy and Istria?Does Germany claim Kaliningrad?Does France claim the Anglo-Norman Islands?
Nationalism is agressive(wherever there's a Serb,there's Serbia) whereas Patriotism is defensive but both are wrong because it's based on the nation and not on the ideas.
People were disgusted with capitalism and nationalism,after WW2 communists got 25% in France and 30% in Italy.
Someone said a french is french,a greek is a greek,etc.
I recall that there's no french citizenship,greek citizenship,etc anymore.It was replaced in '93 by the european citizenship.
Nationalism stems from the tribal mindset:the national superiority,epic history and nationality based on blood(common ancesters).
After the french revolution,it was thought that French stem from Gauls and that the aristocracy stemmed from Franks.Napoleon based the french nationality on blood and,until WW2,french heard"our ancestors the Gauls" in history class.
But now it's dead,does Italy claim Corsica,Nice and Savoy and Istria?Does Germany claim Kaliningrad?Does France claim the Anglo-Norman Islands?
Nationalism is agressive(wherever there's a Serb,there's Serbia) whereas Patriotism is defensive but both are wrong because it's based on the nation and not on the ideas.
Pillager
League of Empire Loyalist
What I meant was that patriotism is *only* dead for those continentals (and they do tend to be) who want to abolish nationalities and have some happy socialist European Union, but *not* for the man on the street. Do you still agree?
Sanaz
Gorilla Joe
The EU is the most progressive place in the world?
Sorry, it just ain't so.I'm not particularly nationalistic (although I love my homeland) for two reasons. For one, I travel too much and have roots in too many other countries/regions in the world. For a second, I personally believe that the US is better as a federation of states, with a strong core of government. I'm OK with our government more or less the way it is, but I dislike any trends which pull power from local county/state government under central control of the federal government. I believe the country is too big to represent local interests that way. Extrapolating this belief, I can't imagine how it is a good thing to have laws which fit in well in the US being relevant in India, Somalia, or Japan. One government? Sounds like a bloody nightmare.
Does England want the US gun laws? Sweden our death penalty laws? Heck, Wyoming doesn't want or need Washington, DC's gun control and hunting laws. Does Canada want the Islamic laws of Iran? How about India's treatment of cows transplanted to Texas? The industriousness of Denmark down in the Caribbean?
My point is, I'd love peace, understanding, and the free flow of information to all corners of the world (it's my life work), but I don't want sameness around the world. And I doubt anyone really does, if they knew the real world, real life ramifications.
AVN
Deity
Please explain.
It's not death, but IMO it's much.. much less than before WW2.
Personally I'm not feeling a nationalistic Dutchman or patriot.
newfangle
hates you.
My sentiments exactly Damien.
G-Man
A One Man's War
Says who?
That's because european countries aren't at war between each other. There's simply no need for a border made of mines and fences - a politivcal border is just as good. It doesn't mean a French feels any more German or that a Dutch feels any more British....
Also, your point that nationalism is a new invention and was invented in europe is historically incorrect. The idea of gathering in groups isn't even a human invention. Nationalism was just the next step. Instead of considering myself a member of the "red lion" tribe, I considered my self Israeli - a part of a larger tribe called "Israel".
Alcibiaties of Athenae
Imperator
Further proof how far your off Newfangle:
Does not Canada have a strong sepratist movement in Quebec?
Your whole intial idea is so far off the scale, I'm amazed anyone agreed.
Does not Canada have a strong sepratist movement in Quebec?
Your whole intial idea is so far off the scale, I'm amazed anyone agreed.
Pillager
League of Empire Loyalist
That's right. We naturally organise ourselves to identify ourselves against others. Perhaps in 100 years my relatives will cease to be British, and will instead be European (although I seriously doubt it). Newfangle's equivalents will then be making the same point but replacing 'nationality' with 'continentality'.
The only way that we'll be all one happy family is if we face an extra-terrestial threat, because only then will be natural for us to identify ourselves in the same group. And an extra-terrestial threat is not something I'm too concerned about.
newfangle
hates you.
Quebec seperatist movement is declining, and I thought that Quebec was in North America.
Alcibiaties of Athenae
Imperator
You stated the WORLD was moving away from nationalism, is not Canada part of the world?
I think you need to brush up if you think the Quebec movement is dying down.
I think you need to brush up if you think the Quebec movement is dying down.
newfangle
hates you.
Will it really matter when all borders are aboned and everyone adopts worldwide communism?
Alcibiaties of Athenae
Imperator
What matters is you just want people to embrace Communism, the entire thread and intial supposition was merely a ruse, and has now been exposed.
G-Man
A One Man's War
I think it would. Researchs show that your environment effects your dreams.
newfangle
hates you.
Wrongo. Damien summed up my sentiment exactly. I just get all fired up when I see oodles of conservatism.
