Nationalism is not Good

[Sanaz]

Originally posted by newfangle
Quebec seperatist movement is declining, and I thought that Quebec was in North America.

If you're only talking about Europe, sure it's beginning to unify. If it became one country, with each former country being a provence, it would still be comparable in size to Russia, China, the US, and Canada. That is the formation of a new union, NOT loss of nationalism in the world. And at least in Canada and the US, there are still separatists who believe that the country is too big. The same will be true in Europe, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. Unified defense and economy/trade is usually helpful, but individual identity is important to maintain.

Originally posted by newfangle
Will it really matter when all borders are aboned and everyone adopts worldwide communism?

And WHY would ANYONE in the world REALLY want communism? I know it's a different topic, but I would fight pretty hard if anyone tried to push any form of communism on our country. Pushing an agenda on people is a much bigger cause for strife and confusion in the world than nationalism is (just check out the ME). I love meeting people around the world who are proud of their country, their history, and their culture, and want to show it off. I can't say the same for anyone who thinks they are smarter than me, and that if I just saw things their way I'd be in blissful peace for all eternity. Let's save that trash for the televangelists, it doesn't belong in any intelligent conversation.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by newfangle
Wrongo. Damien summed up my sentiment exactly. I just get all fired up when I see oodles of conservatism.

Alright then:

I believe nationalism is dead in Western Europe.It is where it was born and where it died.(in 1945).

>>> Wrong, as I already prooved.

People were disgusted with capitalism and nationalism,after WW2 communists got 25% in France and 30% in Italy.

>>> People didn't think communism all the way through and didn't understand it's consequences as we do today.

Someone said a french is french,a greek is a greek,etc.
I recall that there's no french citizenship,greek citizenship,etc anymore.It was replaced in '93 by the european citizenship.

>>> So all europeans can vote on French elections? All europeans pay taxes to the French goverment? All europeans can run for a political position in France?

Nationalism stems from the tribal mindset:the national superiority,epic history and nationality based on blood(common ancesters).

>>> Nationalism stems from human nature.

After the french revolution,it was thought that French stem from Gauls and that the aristocracy stemmed from Franks.Napoleon based the french nationality on blood and,until WW2,french heard"our ancestors the Gauls" in history class.

>>> And now you hear "we stem from those brave fighters who fought the Germans in WW2"...

But now it's dead,does Italy claim Corsica,Nice and Savoy and Istria?Does Germany claim Kaliningrad?Does France claim the Anglo-Norman Islands?

>>> No, nationalism is too strong for countries to want to take over other areas.

Nationalism is agressive(wherever there's a Serb,there's Serbia) whereas Patriotism is defensive but both are wrong because it's based on the nation and not on the ideas.

>>> The nation is the idea.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Nationalism is alive and well all around the world.
The flimsy arguments otherwise have been refuted here most comprehensively.
Whilst by all means, you may wish to believe that it is dead and doomed, just like you cling to your lovely little communist stuff. But this does not mean anything apart from your own frankly self righteous, ideologically blinded, fatuous and illogical opinion.
It is your current right to hold that belief, and all good for you.
Enjoy it.
But Nationalism is not dead simply because you proclaim, even if ye are the vanguard of the proletariat.
I know several hundred good and true men personally who believe the direct and exact opposite - That Nationalism is alive and well, and thriving, that it is right and good. And there are millions more around the globe who hold to similar beliefs.
Hold to your self delusions, my dear boy - it is your right and privilege, bought with blood. But do not presume that they are the be all and the end all of existence. That is an act of presumption of monumental scale, akin to Ar-Pharazon landing on the shores of th Forbidden Land, and manifestly more illogical.

 

[Damien]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe


If you think Nationalism in WE died in WW2 you are very naive.

Prove it!Also prove Europe ain't the most progressist place in the world

Far-right is the only remnant to me.

And G-man,Dutch don't feel more british and french more german,but more european

 

[Mephisto]

i don't think nationalism is dead at all, though personally i don't like blind patriots.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Damien
And G-man,Dutch don't feel more british and french more german,but more european

So in the future instead of wars between countries we'll have wars between continents. Would it really be so different?

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Originally posted by Damien
Prove it!Also prove Europe ain't the most progressist place in the world

Simple.
What you strive for, a nation not based on nationality, the United States acchieved two centuries ago.

Far-right is the only remnant to me.

Every day more cracks appear in Europe, you will never become a country like the US untill you give up being French, Britsih, ect, in other words, never.

And G-man,Dutch don't feel more british and french more german,but more european

Every time I see these things I laugh, say something about some European's home country, and watch how defensive they get, that's Nationalism, and that is what prevents you from truly being the United States of Europe.

 

[newfangle]

Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
Nationalism is alive and well all around the world.
The flimsy arguments otherwise have been refuted here most comprehensively.
Whilst by all means, you may wish to believe that it is dead and doomed, just like you cling to your lovely little communist stuff. But this does not mean anything apart from your own frankly self righteous, ideologically blinded, fatuous and illogical opinion.
It is your current right to hold that belief, and all good for you.
Enjoy it.
But Nationalism is not dead simply because you proclaim, even if ye are the vanguard of the proletariat.
I know several hundred good and true men personally who believe the direct and exact opposite - That Nationalism is alive and well, and thriving, that it is right and good. And there are millions more around the globe who hold to similar beliefs.
Hold to your self delusions, my dear boy - it is your right and privilege, bought with blood. But do not presume that they are the be all and the end all of existence. That is an act of presumption of monumental scale, akin to Ar-Pharazon landing on the shores of th Forbidden Land, and manifestly more illogical.

Ahhh the wise and mislead Darkshade. I was wondering why your blindness hadn't surfaced yet. The world is definitely moving more left than right, in which case I am not so concerned...

 

[Damien]

The nationalism that ended in 1945 was the one trigerred in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Every european citizen living in any member country can vote and be elected if he's been living on the national territory for at least 3 months.

About the brave fighters,that's different,it's patriotism and was set by Charles de Gaulle.That myth starts dying.French know they don't fully stem from Gauls.

"The nation is the idea".I was talking about pondered ideas.
Nationalist and Patriots fight for their countries because it's their country,not for an ideal.

 

[Becka]

While I do love my country and I'm glad I live here, I don't feel a lot of "nationalism". I'm proud of my state, though (see the avatar ) like some people are proud of their countries.

But what I see a lot of here in America is not so much people being proud of their American heritage (unless their families have been here a long time) but being proud of their European heritage. So I must say that even if Nationalism WAS dying out in Europe, European heritage certainly isn't dying out in America.

But people still are proud to be here, and I still am too. It's just not so much a "nationalism" thing but I think it's better that way.

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by Damien
Every european citizen living in any member country can vote and be elected if he's been living on the national territory for at least 3 months.

Only in local and European elections, not nationals.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Originally posted by newfangle
Ahhh the wise and mislead Darkshade. I was wondering why your blindness hadn't surfaced yet. The world is definitely moving more left than right, in which case I am not so concerned...

With the utmost respect, what is your major malfunction?
As one has said specifically in other threads, what makes you think that you the arbiter of wisdom in the world. If you give your age right, you are 16 bloody years old.
At that age, I knew everything as well, and so did all my friends.
I know I am banging my head on a brick wall by saying it, but you refuse to contemplate anything that goes against your silly little teenage world view.
Heck, that is your right and privilege. Good on ya. But don't go around trying to pass yourself off as the font of all that is correct, because you ain't. You ain't got the study, nor the life experience. You have the p1ss and vinegar of an idealist youth, which is honestly a good thing.

But, if you are genuine in your concern for the world, you would not be so eager to alienate all and sundry through your youthful ignorance and blindness. You would listen, and learn. And build, rather than rant.
You achieve nothing through your buggerizing about in this manner.
You have your beliefs, and that is good. It is heartening to see boys and girls interested in the fate of humanity rather than picking up all the time.

Try and realize this. Unfortunately, this is a lesson only maturity can teach. I was you at your age, suprise, suprise, except a great deal more violent and inclined towards organized crime.
Heck, I'd bet many other men and women here have been through periods of their life when they were a radical, idealistic teenager who knew everything. Just think on this, okay. Think. Don't gob off.
Just think and appraise yourself in a critical, detatched manner.

 

[Damien]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
Simple.
What you strive for, a nation not based on nationality, the United States acchieved two centuries ago.

>>>It was achieved in '93.Americans rejected xenophobia against other whites 200 years ago ok but other things make America look like backward

Every day more cracks appear in Europe, you will never become a country like the US untill you give up being French, Britsih, ect, in other words, never.

>>>It's already done,since '93(european citizenship).

Every time I see these things I laugh, say something about some European's home country, and watch how defensive they get, that's Nationalism, and that is what prevents you from truly being the United States of Europe.

>>>AoA,I already said it before I think,you seem to like bashing Europe and oppose it with America.The fact that Europe is now more progressist than the US doesn't question the american national feeling and america's great achievments.The fact that Brits are freed from the monarchy doesn't mean that Americans and Brits are the same.

 

[sysyphus]

Originally posted by Mephisto
i don't think nationalism is dead at all, though personally i don't like blind patriots.

Very well said.

Americans are known for their nationalism, and it does give them somewhat of a bad image, but it also has a good effect. I've noticed that, contrary to popular belief, Americans are more community minded that people in other countries and are will willing to help each other out, and I do believe that Nationalism plays a big part in this.

Nationalism isn't "my country right or wrong", that is, as Mephisto put it, blind patriotism.

I believe that loving a country is similar to loving your child. You want it to be its best, and if it gets out of line you straighten it out.

I'm always the first to gripe about Canada, but that's mainly because I love Canada and I want it to be at its best. I can't be proud of a country that is doing wrong.

 

[newfangle]

Originally posted by Simon Darkshade


With the utmost respect, what is your major malfunction?
As one has said specifically in other threads, what makes you think that you the arbiter of wisdom in the world. If you give your age right, you are 16 bloody years old.
At that age, I knew everything as well, and so did all my friends.
I know I am banging my head on a brick wall by saying it, but you refuse to contemplate anything that goes against your silly little teenage world view.
Heck, that is your right and privilege. Good on ya. But don't go around trying to pass yourself off as the font of all that is correct, because you ain't. You ain't got the study, nor the life experience. You have the p1ss and vinegar of an idealist youth, which is honestly a good thing.

But, if you are genuine in your concern for the world, you would not be so eager to alienate all and sundry through your youthful ignorance and blindness. You would listen, and learn. And build, rather than rant.
You achieve nothing through your buggerizing about in this manner.
You have your beliefs, and that is good. It is heartening to see boys and girls interested in the fate of humanity rather than picking up all the time.

Try and realize this. Unfortunately, this is a lesson only maturity can teach. I was you at your age, suprise, suprise, except a great deal more violent and inclined towards organized crime.
Heck, I'd bet many other men and women here have been through periods of their life when they were a radical, idealistic teenager who knew everything. Just think on this, okay. Think. Don't gob off.
Just think and appraise yourself in a critical, detatched manner.

Rest assured, my left wing beliefs stem from my concern for the environment. I am indeed 16 Darkshade. When I am 50, I would like to still have a planet to live on. When I was 15 I was a little conservative arse wipe. Mmmmmm progression

 

[Simon Darkshade]

So, the whole response to a mature, serious piece of friendly advice is a little attempt at a joke?

Just think on the matters I raised, my boy. It is good you care for the environment. It is a valid concern. I have never advanced arguments otherwise. But you still have much to learn about the world, politics, economics, how and why people do what they do, and life in general.
We all are in a learning process.
So, rather than acting like a dunderhead and acting as if ye know everything and are the moral arbiter of humanity, just moderate yerself, and learn something.
It is all well and good to dally with communism, and think you know everything. From my experience working with teenage boys, even this won't change your mind, or the way you think; only time will. But for crying out loud, don't think ye are the first, or the messiah or the like.
To use the Aussie vernacular, pull your head out of your a*se.
Do you think you are the first to go around spouting all this stuff? It has been going on since time immemorial.
There is a big world out there. A lot of it is bad, but a heck more is good, and ye can learn from it.

Just consider, and do what thou wilt.
History will prove me right, as it has done so many times before.

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
There is a big world out there. A lot of it is bad, but a heck more is good

Keep that idealistic idea. It makes you look nice.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Originally posted by Hitro

Keep that idealistic idea. It makes you look nice.

Oi! You! I'm trying to teach the boy how to become a mature human being, so stop being such a sour-Kraut.

 

[newfangle]

Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
So, the whole response to a mature, serious piece of friendly advice is a little attempt at a joke?

Just think on the matters I raised, my boy. It is good you care for the environment. It is a valid concern. I have never advanced arguments otherwise. But you still have much to learn about the world, politics, economics, how and why people do what they do, and life in general.
We all are in a learning process.
So, rather than acting like a dunderhead and acting as if ye know everything and are the moral arbiter of humanity, just moderate yerself, and learn something.
It is all well and good to dally with communism, and think you know everything. From my experience working with teenage boys, even this won't change your mind, or the way you think; only time will. But for crying out loud, don't think ye are the first, or the messiah or the like.
To use the Aussie vernacular, pull your head out of your a*se.
Do you think you are the first to go around spouting all this stuff? It has been going on since time immemorial.
There is a big world out there. A lot of it is bad, but a heck more is good, and ye can learn from it.

Just consider, and do what thou wilt.
History will prove me right, as it has done so many times before.

Patronize me further and I will vomit. This is all coming from a man that talks about impaling commies all day. Give me a break....

 

[Hitro]

My sincerest apologies.

But the discrepancy between the wise words above and the quoted statement was simply to big to stay uncommented.