Naval Units Rework Project

[Sparth]

For transport unit we can use Kazon Colony Ship (from Star Trek mod)

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ok graphics looking cool and showing where we need to search about so that's awesome work on your end H! (And yes, Sparth, that transport would be great - we should be looking for submersible transport ships too considering that's sorta the future past a fairly 'near' point.) Basically we need to pool ALL naval models we can find and some spaceship models to get this sewn up.

I've managed to map out:
1: Tech Tree updates that will be necessary

2: Units and Their Tech Prereqs

and
3: Unit Combat Class assignments (full list of new UnitCombats on the bottom left)


Check 'em out. It'll be a few weeks and I should be able to get the unit stats completely sorted out. Shouldn't be tough to add the new layers into the progression charts. This was REALLY the tough part.

There's probably a number of new tech submissions you'll want to comment on registering in at the end of transhuman/start of galactic eras. Pay special attention there if you would. I mapped out an interesting progression from the T-800 type Terminator to the T-2000 type Terminator to the current Nanite Cloud to something even more advanced that will take a little cool programming to pull off. Didn't CREATE these units, just the techs to stage them at as it all played into progressing capacities for these vessels.

Anyhow, take a looksie and see what you think.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I've managed to map out:
1: Tech Tree updates that will be necessary

What was changed from last time. Is hard to keep track.

EDIT: So far I have found ...

1. Computers split into Early Computing and Personal Computers.

That's what we discussed so awesome! I also see the techs it influences (3D Modeling, Computer Networks, Robotics) so that seems ok as well

New Tech: Automatic Coilguns (x97/y15) Prereqs: Microgenerators and Railgun . Prereq for Warmachines and Wireless Electricity. Prereq for all Coilgun weapons

2. Ok cool.

Prototyped Pathogens: Prereq for Pathogen Delivery Unit Combats

3. Where is Pathogen Delivery? Is it just Dystopia Pathogens or is there a new tech?

Automated Robotics: Renamed from Droids

4. Agreed.

Droids: (x104/y13) Prereqs: Advanced Computers, Bionics, Biomimetics. Becomes primary prereq for Androids.

Agreed however since this is named Droids your better off moving the existing Droids tech here and making a new tech called TECH_AUTOMATED_ROBOTICS.

I got to go but I will check over more later. So far no problems I can see.

 

[Thunderbrd]

What was changed from last time. Is hard to keep track.

Yeah, I know... it was hard to keep a concise list too so I took out the old list and left the adjustments to be found at every bolded tech. Best I can offer at the moment. Looks like you've figured out how to go through it properly so yeah, just keep doing what you've been doing. This should be a patient process here.

1. Computers split into Early Computing and Personal Computers.

That's what we discussed so awesome! I also see the techs it influences (3D Modeling, Computer Networks, Robotics) so that seems ok as well

Ok, cool!

3. Where is Pathogen Delivery? Is it just Dystopia Pathogens or is there a new tech?

Pathogen Delivery is a new Weapon Combat Class - I perhaps shouldn't have said 'Prereq for' and instead said, 'Unlocks' or something like that. But since I won't have time to edit the chart you'll see other similar references. If the name doesn't connect to a tech it's probably a new weapon or other Combat Class planned and that's the tech at which that Combat Class starts becoming relevant for assignment.

As a weapon, Pathogen Delivery is sorta generic. In combination with other weapon types it'll unlock various equipments that make it work, like for example Pathogenic Missiles or Pathogenic Release Shells. For now, none of the weapons and shields have any direct game effect. It's going to take some more programming to get it working as I hope I can for the base game and for equipment, well... equipment itself needs a little more work and a lot more development for the promos across the board of course. It would be easiest to suspend more direct influences on units until equipment is developed but I'm trying to think of a clear way to make it work for pure unit combat interactions (and that's not proving easily done.)

Agreed however since this is named Droids your better off moving the existing Droids tech here and making a new tech called TECH_AUTOMATED_ROBOTICS.

Yeah, whatever works best. Just got to be very careful with current prereqs and references to the Droids tech when going about this of course.

I got to go but I will check over more later. So far no problems I can see.

Cool Keep stepping through it as time permits. It's obviously easiest to discuss these things in small chunks anyhow.

 

[Arakhor]

Perhaps this is still the wrong thread to discuss this, but since you're going over all sorts of techs and units here, it's worth it, I think.

Afforess put in RAND a No Future Era option (or something to that effect), so maybe that would be a better option to work into these Trans/Gal revisions you're doing, given how the MLFs are utterly failing to provide such benefits. That would allow us the Schrödinger position of not having the techs in-game and not removing them both at the same time.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Perhaps this is still the wrong thread to discuss this, but since you're going over all sorts of techs and units here, it's worth it, I think.

Afforess put in a No Future Era option (or something to that effect), so maybe that would be a better option to work into these Trans/Gal revisions you're doing, given how the MLFs are utterly failing to provide such benefits.

Now that Alberts has corrected an enormous memory leak problem that's been with us for quite a few versions here I think you'll find MAF problems will be greatly reduced if not largely eliminated. We'll be looking at clearing even more mem usage as well (and probably eliminating unit count limits - though this COULD open us up to more MAFs in later games it would keep a definite crash from taking place once that limit is hit, which it rarely is as it stands now.)

This is not to say that I don't mean to provide an Era limit option at some point as well.

 

[Arakhor]

That's fair enough. I haven't experienced any obvious MAFs, unlike with my old XP machine, but I'm getting far too old to be sitting around for up to a minute in between every turn from the mid-game onwards, which is why I'm interested in reducing the mod's footprint, so to speak.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That's fair enough. I haven't experienced any obvious MAFs, unlike with my old XP machine, but I'm getting far too old to be sitting around for up to a minute in between every turn from the mid-game onwards, which is why I'm interested in reducing the mod's footprint, so to speak.

Interestingly enough, yes there are places where we still need to focus on streamlining the turn times and processing volume, but that often means adding to the memory footprint as that's how we can shortcut various processes is to store more calculation results into memory for a time so that it doesn't need to then be re-evaluated repeatedly to a total multiple times before the last total is irrelevant. So while there's not a DIRECT link between processing speed and memory footprint, often reducing processing speed can mean increasing memory footprint. Memory does not really have an innate impact on processing speed - it's only a problem really when it's overtaxed, thus MAF errors.

And then again, that comment points towards the need to improve the AI... a minute's wait in turn times is nothing if the game is challenging as hell and fun to play still. The work on this particular project is also going to make the turn wait more worthwhile in the later game as there isn't disappointment once you get there that the mod is in a chaotic shambles of development. At least where the Navy is concerned.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Pathogen Delivery is a new Weapon Combat Class - I perhaps shouldn't have said 'Prereq for' and instead said, 'Unlocks' or something like that. But since I won't have time to edit the chart you'll see other similar references. If the name doesn't connect to a tech it's probably a new weapon or other Combat Class planned and that's the tech at which that Combat Class starts becoming relevant for assignment.

Saying just "promotion", "tech", "resource", "civic", etc is a good way to let me know what things are for.

Yeah, whatever works best. Just got to be very careful with current prereqs and references to the Droids tech when going about this of course.

Yeah each thing that requires droid tech will have to be looked at to see if it should go at Automated Robotics, Droids or even another tech.

This is not to say that I don't mean to provide an Era limit option at some point as well.

If one was put in I don't think it should single out the Transhuman and Galactic Eras. In the game Empire Earth and I think even Age of Empires one could set the Starting Era as well as the Ending Era. Thus one could say set Ancient Start and Industrial Era End. Likewise if you anted to play only in one era then you could pick as Medieval Start and Medieval End and you would only progress though that era and cannot research anything in the Renaissance or later.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Saying just "promotion", "tech", "resource", "civic", etc is a good way to let me know what things are for.

Take this as good natured friendly ribbing but...

Prereq for Pathogen Delivery Unit Combats

I might not have correctly identified all of these but at least here I did. Combat Class and Unit Combat are interchangeable terms like Bonus and Resource.

Yeah each thing that requires droid tech will have to be looked at to see if it should go at Automated Robotics, Droids or even another tech.

Agreed.

If one was put in I don't think it should single out the Transhuman and Galactic Eras. In the game Empire Earth and I think even Age of Empires one could set the Starting Era as well as the Ending Era. Thus one could say set Ancient Start and Industrial Era End. Likewise if you anted to play only in one era then you could pick as Medieval Start and Medieval End and you would only progress though that era and cannot research anything in the Renaissance or later.

Exactly... thus why I said an Era limiting option - I'd want to figure out how to make the era being cutoff at a selectable variable. I may have to use the map options to make it work since gameoptions are generally straight bools and we don't have a lot of non-automatic exe generated functionality there except to add or take away options.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Urban Culture (new): Prereqs: Counterculture Unlocks new crimes, Drug Distributors (coin, xp for criminals, +crime), and Somali Pirates

I still don't think that Somali Pirates fits here. I was thinking on why Somali Pirates even exist and its because of International Shipping. And I know we have a building called International Port. So I looked it up and it says it comes at Logistics.

I think it should be moved to either Logistics (x76) or Globalization (x77). I know its not as far as Urban Culture (x86) but its still farther than Coast Guard (x71).

Microgenerators: This tech PLUS Railgun unlocks Rapid Railguns

So Rapid Railguns come before Coil Guns?

Invisibility: Really a new tech as the old one is renamed to Cloaking. Prereqs of: Graphene Alloys & Rapid Prototyping & Quantum Teleportation. Becomes a prereq for Mesh Networks

Cloaking (Invisibility Renamed): Also unlocks Photon Shields

Yeah I also like this solution. However the old Invisibility should just be moved and the new Cloaking should get the same reqs. That way the new tech can have the tag of TECH_CLOAKING. So not to be too confusing.

Augment Consumables: Add a BioFuel resource here.

I disagree. Biofuel has been around for a long time. In fact the Model T used corn alcohol gasoline.

Biomaterals tech is perfect for the resouce. Also a lot of buildings depend on it being there such as Biopolymer Factory and Biofuel Power Plant.

Or did you mean some sort of new Biofuel type resource and not the existing Biofuel resource we have now?

Warmachines: Moved to x103 Prereqs: TECH_LENGINE, TECH_NANOELECTRONICS, TECH_COILGUN, TECH_AUTOMATEDSERVICES

Ok so TECH_LENGINE must be the tag for Internal Shockwave Engine. And your swapping out Railgun for Coilgun tech. And swaped out Droids for Automated Services. Is Nanoelectronics ok i guess but what happened to the Biometic Warfare requirement? that seems like an important requirement. Especially whe it unlocks things like Mining and Farming Bots.

Levitation: Was in the postion of Antigravity (renamed). Remove Artificial Intelligence prereq and Add Quantum Computing prereq

Is there no tech called Antigrav now?

Binary Subconciousness: The term Sentroid is appropriate from here though must make sure the tech has been reached in all prereqs to qualify for the term.

Thank for keeping the generalized term that covers more than just Sentroids. However we do have a tech called "Synthetic Sentience" (x101). We may want to rename the tech.

Weightless Flight: new tech Prereqs: Hypermagnetics and Planetary Trade, Prereq for Astrogation Constellation

Ok.

Anti-Gravity Fields: New Tech position Prereqs: Synergetics; Prereq for Shielding, Orbital Megastructures, Binary Psychokinesis

Guess this is the later antigrav tech. Sounds good.

Optronics: Opens visibility to Cloaking

So units could detect cloaked units?

Abyss Colonization: Opens access to INVISIBILITY_VOID

What is void invisibility?

Frictionless Flight: New tech Prereqs: Shielding, Astrogation Constellation. Prereq for Asteroid Extraction, Lunar Megastructures and Planetary Defenses

Sounds cool.

Transhumanism: Prereq for TELEPATHY weaponry

Is this technological telepathy or like psionics?

Humanoids: Rename to Sapientroids, Naming units Anthroids and Troids from here are appropriate

Agreed.

Thermal Negation: Prereq: Gaia Ecology and Advanced Shielding. Prereq for Weather Control and Subterranean Exploration. Required for Improved Frost Weapons and Thermal Negation Shielding.

This a new tech?

Nano-Disassembly: Prereqs: Nanoshielding, Sentient Earth. Prereq for Nanotroids. Is prereq for INVISIBLE_NANO and Nanocollectivity (A defensive and invisibility ability only available to Troids) - allows them to become an atomized cloud and reassemble. Does not allow any kind of ability to act as a lethal nanite cloud when dissassembled.

Molecular Scanning: Equipment that Enables a unit to see INVISIBLE_NANO units. Scans a large scale area for all molecular activity. Prereqs: Sentient Earth, Nanomorphics, Photonic Satellites. Prereq for Extraterrestrial Agriculture and Attometer Engineering

Crazy cool!

Nanotroids: Prereqs: Nano-disassembly, Weather Control. Also a prereq for Planetary Terraforming. Should unlock the dreaded Nanite Cloud. Not yet complete morphology - cloud always stays a cloud as its processing requires it. But the cloud is lethal and kills at a molecular level.

I like!

Attometer Nanomorphism: Should unlock a Troid unit that can become any Troid unit that's been tech accessed before and after this point. Prereqs: Attometer Engineering and Sapientroid Clouds. Additional prereq for Artificial Planets. Units utilizing this tech are quite weak to disintigration and antimatter.

From a game point of view how do you get unit to do this?

New Tech: Gravity Control (x123/y13), Prereqs: Attometer Engineering. Becomes Prereq for Artificial Planets, Interstellar Colonization (and primary prereq for more below.) Actual achievements at this point are probably going to be more based on further improvements in ferrying from a planet to its moons. Deep Sea exploration and further Deep Sea colonization could benefit here as well, either directly or as a derivative.

And level 3 antigrav tech. Much better progression.

New Tech: Weaponized Gravity Fields (x124/y13), Prereqs Gravity Control, Advanced War Machines. Becomes Secondary Prereq for Singularity Stabilization.

Sounds reasonable.

New Tech: Phasing (x128/y3) Prereqs Transtangible Neutrino Accelerators and Wormhole Communications (where some detection of phasing may also exist). Becomes a prereq for Time Travel. Prereq for any Phasing based technological abilities.

Yeah I remember this from our discussions.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@TB

I also have some left over tech names on my tech tree from MrAzure's Galatic era. However I am unsure what they were supsoe to do.

x115
- Amino Architecture

x116
- Marine Colonization
- Neuron Architecture

x117
- Creation Dogma
- Neuron Armarment
- Maslov Modification

x118
- Luna Jurisdiction
- Conscious Flora
- Cognitive Augmentation
- Soul Emulation

x119
- Immersive Reality
- Luminal Broadband
- Binary Agriculture
- Aerial Colonization
- Picotechnology
- Species Amalgamation
- Essence Transistors

x120
- Planet Scanning
- Binary Omnipresense
- Inner Solar System Piracy
- Gaia Computing
- Molecular Teleporatation
- Element Enginnering
- Luminal Organisms
- Synthoid Organisms

So do we already cover these? Do we need any of these or do we want any of these?

There is a lot more stuff in the Galactic and Transhuman threads that MrAzure posted.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Urban Culture (new): Prereqs: Counterculture Unlocks new crimes, Drug Distributors (coin, xp for criminals, +crime), and Somali Pirates

I still don't think that Somali Pirates fits here. I was thinking on why Somali Pirates even exist and its because of International Shipping. And I know we have a building called International Port. So I looked it up and it says it comes at Logistics.

I think it should be moved to either Logistics (x76) or Globalization (x77). I know its not as far as Urban Culture (x86) but its still farther than Coast Guard (x71).

Honestly half the point of putting in the new tech here is to give a more appropriate x placement for Somali Pirates basing them on the progression scales (and on the Earth timetable.) If you wish we can ignore Urban Culture altogether and place them at Extreme Sports instead. This would be to reflect upon the kinds of boats they use (speedboats) being relatively prolific within the nation. I had originally considered that but it didn't quite sound right.

Somali Pirates are more due to gangs banding together for safety and survival in an anarchic nation that no longer provides the means for that survival. Sure shipping lanes are the target but localized organized crime models are as much a prerequisite. While it's not an OLD concept for localized gangs, pop culture does support the notion in this era. I felt it could be appropriate to reflect that with a culturally generic 'trend' that could be reflected in a tech point that could also give us (eventually) some new units beyond just a launching point for Somali Pirates.

Furthermore, I would like to eventually move counterculture back some as the 60's is butting right up against the 80's and 90's here. But I figured we might want to leave that for a more dedicated attempt to disseminate the structure of organized crime history.

Anyhow, if you want to avoid that complication for now, I suggest Extreme Sports and Counterculture as prereqs.

Microgenerators: This tech PLUS Railgun unlocks Rapid Railguns

So Rapid Railguns come before Coil Guns?

I'd have to re-structure some things or at least look a little more closely at some unit prereqs if we had them open up at the same time. Microgenerators made sense as a prereq for Coil Guns.

Rapid Railguns are basically just firing smaller rounds but doing so at a mind numbing rate. The rounds are still quite large just not as large as what's fired from a Heavy Railgun. Their rate of speed leaving the barrel is just as fast as they spit out of a heavy railgun but the machine basically stays on and the rounds are loaded into large hoppers and just autofeed down into the channel so they come out of there right on top of one another, making it almost a solid stream of high speed metal being fired. These weapons are still only valid for vehicles to utilize and only ever would be.

The Coil Gun we determined would be an early handheld railgun. I figure it CAN have an automatic setting but is often used as an awfully powerful sniping rifle (making it similar to a suggestion from Civ Fuehrer a while back.) The Handheld railgun would basically obsolete it and the main thing that is needed is the ability for the power source to be derived from something larger than a guy could carry, thus accessed at Wireless Electricity. I'm thinking the only other weakness of a Handheld Railgun concept would be that you could unload basically too much ammunition at once so it would require a crew of mules just to backup the guy wielding one. Robotics probably would help with that role.

Coilguns may actually be the thing that unlocks the Rapid Railgun technologically, but in all reality we have Coilguns now... it's just the power source problem - microgenerators makes them sustainable enough to be useful for soldiers. While the Coilgun propulsion structure is much the same as a Coilgun it would keep a firing channel from overheating so would probably mean a larger version may in fact BE a rapid railgun so perhaps rapid railgun should come at the same tech... Again, this might just mean a few ships need to shift their prereqs forward a tech to Coilguns.

Invisibility: Really a new tech as the old one is renamed to Cloaking. Prereqs of: Graphene Alloys & Rapid Prototyping & Quantum Teleportation. Becomes a prereq for Mesh Networks

Cloaking (Invisibility Renamed): Also unlocks Photon Shields

Yeah I also like this solution. However the old Invisibility should just be moved and the new Cloaking should get the same reqs. That way the new tech can have the tag of TECH_CLOAKING. So not to be too confusing.

Certainly.

Augment Consumables: Add a BioFuel resource here.

I disagree. Biofuel has been around for a long time. In fact the Model T used corn alcohol gasoline.

Biomaterals tech is perfect for the resouce. Also a lot of buildings depend on it being there such as Biopolymer Factory and Biofuel Power Plant.

Or did you mean some sort of new Biofuel type resource and not the existing Biofuel resource we have now?

I agree with you technologically but yes I did mean a new type, something just as enhanced as the food. We also apparently from my readings lately, need to have a resource at Liquid Metals. Apparently the Shockwave engine was supposed to use Liquid Metals as a fuel source... I still think a combination of the two would be best, representing what's used at differing stages within the engine.

Warmachines: Moved to x103 Prereqs: TECH_LENGINE, TECH_NANOELECTRONICS, TECH_COILGUN, TECH_AUTOMATEDSERVICES

Ok so TECH_LENGINE must be the tag for Internal Shockwave Engine. And your swapping out Railgun for Coilgun tech. And swaped out Droids for Automated Services. (Droids is actually tagged as Automated Services right now!)Is Nanoelectronics ok i guess but what happened to the Biometic Warfare requirement? that seems like an important requirement. Especially whe it unlocks things like Mining and Farming Bots.

Good catch. You're correct that I'd overlooked that prereq. Should be included. Charts updated.

Levitation: Was in the postion of Antigravity (renamed). Remove Artificial Intelligence prereq and Add Quantum Computing prereq

Is there no tech called Antigrav now?

I think you answered your own question later but I probably will end up porting over the tag name to the new position.

Binary Subconciousness: The term Sentroid is appropriate from here though must make sure the tech has been reached in all prereqs to qualify for the term.

Thank for keeping the generalized term that covers more than just Sentroids. However we do have a tech called "Synthetic Sentience" (x101). We may want to rename the tech.

Strange we had that so far before 'Artificial Intelligence' as it was no? Yeah... I think something was lost in the translation between version I if Azure's proposals and the boiling down into version 'Whatever count this is' that caused this.

Good spot btw. I think this stage was supposed to represent self learning software. Machine Learning seems to have been more about a blending of a bunch of detection technologies like Machine Sight, Touch, etc... But here's where he'd originally pinpointed that we'd start inventing software programming methods that would enable programs to learn.

OUR AI, for example, is NOT a learning AI. But there ARE structures of AI that do. We COULD reprogram our AI to have some basic ideas of what could work, then give it all the same commands as a player and prompting to simply 'try' various things. Then it rates how those 'tries' went and attempts to use scientific method to isolate what REALLY works from what doesn't. It would take thousands, perhaps millions of playthroughs for such an AI to grasp this game well enough to play it halfway decently but it may well discover some new strategies this way that we haven't.

As this is currently being developed it's probably pretty much in an appropriate spot on the tree. But I can see it as a much improved development. Might also represent wider application of the new trinary chips IBM just came out with.

This was also envisioned as a major future improvement in robotics applied to the Sentinels in the X-Men books.

I can't remember the name he gave this stage of development, Affective Algorithms or something I think. Not terribly clear to laymen playing the game either.

So the name should have to do with this. Self-teaching AI perhaps. Cognizant Computing probably covers the concept pretty well but leads us down the road to the same dilemma. Open to more suggestions and I'll be thinking about it further.

Weightless Flight: new tech Prereqs: Hypermagnetics and Planetary Trade, Prereq for Astrogation Constellation

Ok.

Will lead to new Air units to go along with the naval ones.

Anti-Gravity Fields: New Tech position Prereqs: Synergetics; Prereq for Shielding, Orbital Megastructures, Binary Psychokinesis

Guess this is the later antigrav tech. Sounds good.

Exactly. Hopefully this sorts out the full rationale for what Azure had been trying to establish as well but hadn't been able to debate the need for as effectively as he could've been. I was actually surprised his vision matched mine nearly seamlessly in this regard.

Optronics: Opens visibility to Cloaking

So units could detect cloaked units?

If equipped properly to do so from technology derived from this tech, yes... exactly. It helped me to plot out when to unlock the units that should be able to detect cloaking. Something I should've been doing all along is determining where detection tech emerges but I don't think we have a problem there - if we want to make some backroom tech tree notes and keep them solid somewhere I can try to work through and determine that for all invisibility types but I think we're generally fine... just needed to figure it out for this and a few others through this planning stage round.

Abyss Colonization: Opens access to INVISIBILITY_VOID

What is void invisibility?

New form of Invisibility that's more advanced than Cloaking.
Invisibility: Materials shift the passage of light so as to make the object nearly invisible or mini cameras and display paneling work in tandem to make the object seem invisible.
Cloaking: A specialized Electromagnetic field diverts light around the object so as to make it completely invisible BUT can be detected with advanced scanners at Optronics.
Void: All waves are quantum teleported through the object and thus deny the Optronic scanners an ability to detect the diversion field used in cloaking.

Placing it at Abyss Colonization is a bit of a play on words that works in well with the advancing of the Sub line there as well. To further support this, I postulate that it's research taking place in sustained high pressure deep sea environments that enables the discovery of this new 'cloaking' system. Perhaps they find a fish that uses this technology in a biological manner and manage to capture how the mechanism can be replicated.

Note, this most recent review will require some reworking of the visibility/invisibility charts.

Frictionless Flight: New tech Prereqs: Shielding, Astrogation Constellation. Prereq for Asteroid Extraction, Lunar Megastructures and Planetary Defenses

Sounds cool.

Imagine how fast we can make aircraft move through the atmosphere if they are unhindered by friction AND weight eh? Sheesh... near light speed. Advancing Electromagnetic field research may well have us nearly capable of this today but of course we're trying to plot out a reasonable progression here... Still... this sort of technology could explain the 'fast walker' UFO's often reported.

Transhumanism: Prereq for TELEPATHY weaponry

Is this technological telepathy or like psionics?

Psionics. Technological comes earlier and doesn't have the weaponized application that the actual Psionic style would. This unlocks this for both human and machine as while Humans start locking on to how this works and developing it more fully backed by advanced genomics, machines would quickly replicate the process technologically and be right in the thought stream with us as soon as it becomes commonplace capabilities for people.

As a weapon it's a developed capacity for willpower to override others (interpersonal mind control) and a Psychic Shout capability that can mentally stun opponents (done as a collective of minds it can be quite overwhelming to the victims who weren't braced for it.)

Offensively it doesn't work too well against Troids but they can use it very well against Humans. Ends up being something of an EMP vs People.

Humanoids: Rename to Sapientroids, Naming units Anthroids and Troids from here are appropriate

Agreed.

Cool!

Thermal Negation: Prereq: Gaia Ecology and Advanced Shielding. Prereq for Weather Control and Subterranean Exploration. Required for Improved Frost Weapons and Thermal Negation Shielding.

This a new tech?

Yes. I think some of these later new tech submissions I may have forgotten to put 'new tech' before.

You can imagine how effective it would be if we sandwiched a zone of absolute zero temperature between two electromagnetic fields... this would be the explanation of the Thermal Negation Shield. Stops anything that cannot completely overwhelm the field's freezing capacity dead in its tracks as there is no motion to be had within an absolute zero space. Same technology opens up a very advanced Frost Beam weapon that at the core of the beam strips all heat period. Not terribly effective against ship hulls but helpful in attempts to detain or stop some ships dead in their tracks. Works great against nano as well. This is generally the primary weapon of the highly advanced Cutter line.

Nano-Disassembly: Prereqs: Nanoshielding, Sentient Earth. Prereq for Nanotroids. Is prereq for INVISIBLE_NANO and Nanocollectivity (A defensive and invisibility ability only available to Troids) - allows them to become an atomized cloud and reassemble. Does not allow any kind of ability to act as a lethal nanite cloud when dissassembled.

Molecular Scanning: Equipment that Enables a unit to see INVISIBLE_NANO units. Scans a large scale area for all molecular activity. Prereqs: Sentient Earth, Nanomorphics, Photonic Satellites. Prereq for Extraterrestrial Agriculture and Attometer Engineering

Crazy cool!

Nanotroids: Prereqs: Nano-disassembly, Weather Control. Also a prereq for Planetary Terraforming. Should unlock the dreaded Nanite Cloud. Not yet complete morphology - cloud always stays a cloud as its processing requires it. But the cloud is lethal and kills at a molecular level.

I like!

Attometer Nanomorphism: Should unlock a Troid unit that can become any Troid unit that's been tech accessed before and after this point. Prereqs: Attometer Engineering and Sapientroid Clouds. Additional prereq for Artificial Planets. Units utilizing this tech are quite weak to disintigration and antimatter.

From a game point of view how do you get unit to do this?

I plan to create a mission that enables the unit to pull a popup selection list of qualifying unit types and you basically just 'upgrade' the unit into that type but the unit retains an identifier that keeps allowing the mission to be called up at any time. No movement involved in changing form and many upgrade prereqs (including the cost) are ignored. Shouldn't be too hard a project actually... rather simple - so when I get to a point where I'm ready to make that unit I'll develop out the necessary programming. It would work generically for other polymorphic parameters as well which would be cool for Fantasy mods off of C2C down the road. As usual, incorporating it into the AI will be the interesting part but by the time I go to create this effect I should be so familiar with all the AI structures for units that it won't be tough to work it in where necessary.

One thing I'm trying to sort out would be how to work equipments on such a unit but I'll figure it out somehow.

I'm glad you liked this mapped out progression of Troids into Nanotroids. I think it should be pretty wicked cool. Soon as I had sorted it out I was rather attached to the progression. Having Nanite Clouds at Weather Control seemed... incorrect. Perhaps a play on words but just not quite right.

New Tech: Gravity Control (x123/y13), Prereqs: Attometer Engineering. Becomes Prereq for Artificial Planets, Interstellar Colonization (and primary prereq for more below.) Actual achievements at this point are probably going to be more based on further improvements in ferrying from a planet to its moons. Deep Sea exploration and further Deep Sea colonization could benefit here as well, either directly or as a derivative.

And level 3 antigrav tech. Much better progression.

Yeah exactly. I quite like how that works out this way.

New Tech: Weaponized Gravity Fields (x124/y13), Prereqs Gravity Control, Advanced War Machines. Becomes Secondary Prereq for Singularity Stabilization.

Sounds reasonable.

New Tech: Phasing (x128/y3) Prereqs Transtangible Neutrino Accelerators and Wormhole Communications (where some detection of phasing may also exist). Becomes a prereq for Time Travel. Prereq for any Phasing based technological abilities.

Yeah I remember this from our discussions.

Understand that from a game effect basis, this really only amounts to a more advanced Invisibility form. That second tech for transdimmensional states would need some more programming but could be far more effective. Again, there's an ability to stage some 'levels' of effect here much like the stair stepping we have now done with Antigravity.

I do assume that there will be quite a bit more technologies to be introduced at some point on the later galactic stuff.

@TB

I also have some left over tech names on my tech tree from MrAzure's Galatic era. However I am unsure what they were supsoe to do.

x115
- Amino Architecture

x116
- Marine Colonization
- Neuron Architecture

x117
- Creation Dogma
- Neuron Armarment
- Maslov Modification

x118
- Luna Jurisdiction
- Conscious Flora
- Cognitive Augmentation
- Soul Emulation

x119
- Immersive Reality
- Luminal Broadband
- Binary Agriculture
- Aerial Colonization
- Picotechnology
- Species Amalgamation
- Essence Transistors

x120
- Planet Scanning
- Binary Omnipresense
- Inner Solar System Piracy
- Gaia Computing
- Molecular Teleporatation
- Element Enginnering
- Luminal Organisms
- Synthoid Organisms

So do we already cover these? Do we need any of these or do we want any of these?

There is a lot more stuff in the Galactic and Transhuman threads that MrAzure posted.

I looked for the Galactic thread and couldn't find it... I might be able to find some more time to research that if you can link me to it.

The one thing that stands out on that list that would really have an impact on the navies (which is as far as I'm going into lategame devel at the moment) was Neuron Armament... I'd like to get a better idea of what he meant by this and how it would differ from other weapon forms at this time. Perhaps an improved Ion weapon might be in order from such a tech.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Honestly half the point of putting in the new tech here is to give a more appropriate x placement for Somali Pirates basing them on the progression scales (and on the Earth timetable.) If you wish we can ignore Urban Culture altogether and place them at Extreme Sports instead. This would be to reflect upon the kinds of boats they use (speedboats) being relatively prolific within the nation. I had originally considered that but it didn't quite sound right.

If you basing it on Speedboats then they would come in at Water Sports (x67). but I think that is WAY too early.

(Droids is actually tagged as Automated Services right now!)

Oh I did not realize that. I am just looking at stuff through the civpedia, not the game code.

I agree with you technologically but yes I did mean a new type, something just as enhanced as the food. We also apparently from my readings lately, need to have a resource at Liquid Metals. Apparently the Shockwave engine was supposed to use Liquid Metals as a fuel source... I still think a combination of the two would be best, representing what's used at differing stages within the engine.

Yea liquid metals are needed. I think MrAzure even explained why at some point. Now if you want some super biofuel to help fusion reactors we could make one. But we should think of a different name than biofuel. Though we could have it require biofuel in its manufacturing/refining.

So the name should have to do with this. Self-teaching AI perhaps. Cognizant Computing probably covers the concept pretty well but leads us down the road to the same dilemma. Open to more suggestions and I'll be thinking about it further.

whatever you think it should be renamed to. As of now I think it requires/leads to too many techs to remove the tech from the tech tree. However it is an empty tech so we could use it for what we need.

If equipped properly to do so from technology derived from this tech, yes... exactly. It helped me to plot out when to unlock the units that should be able to detect cloaking. Something I should've been doing all along is determining where detection tech emerges but I don't think we have a problem there - if we want to make some backroom tech tree notes and keep them solid somewhere I can try to work through and determine that for all invisibility types but I think we're generally fine... just needed to figure it out for this and a few others through this planning stage round.

I think this was the first one I saw of your conceal/reveal type techs. Just making sure I understood what you were trying to do. I am looking forward to all the new types of camo/invisible types.

New form of Invisibility that's more advanced than Cloaking.
Invisibility: Materials shift the passage of light so as to make the object nearly invisible or mini cameras and display paneling work in tandem to make the object seem invisible.
Cloaking: A specialized Electromagnetic field diverts light around the object so as to make it completely invisible BUT can be detected with advanced scanners at Optronics.
Void: All waves are quantum teleported through the object and thus deny the Optronic scanners an ability to detect the diversion field used in cloaking.

Placing it at Abyss Colonization is a bit of a play on words that works in well with the advancing of the Sub line there as well. To further support this, I postulate that it's research taking place in sustained high pressure deep sea environments that enables the discovery of this new 'cloaking' system. Perhaps they find a fish that uses this technology in a biological manner and manage to capture how the mechanism can be replicated.

Note, this most recent review will require some reworking of the visibility/invisibility charts.

Oh I though it was just because the subs traveled in deeper waters. And it was like a sub-submarine or something. If its jut a play on words then we might want a better tech. Because Abyss Colonization I don't think has anything to do with cloaking.

How about we move it to Animamaterials (x113). It supposedly has new regenerative fabrics and it uses "anima" instead of "nanites". According to MrAzure.

Nanobots -> Nanites -> Anima

Which are more biological than nanites, but also keep their artificial roots.

Psionics. Technological comes earlier and doesn't have the weaponized application that the actual Psionic style would. This unlocks this for both human and machine as while Humans start locking on to how this works and developing it more fully backed by advanced genomics, machines would quickly replicate the process technologically and be right in the thought stream with us as soon as it becomes commonplace capabilities for people.

As a weapon it's a developed capacity for willpower to override others (interpersonal mind control) and a Psychic Shout capability that can mentally stun opponents (done as a collective of minds it can be quite overwhelming to the victims who weren't braced for it.)

Offensively it doesn't work too well against Troids but they can use it very well against Humans. Ends up being something of an EMP vs People.

Its pushing into the "magic" stuff, but I suppose since ti so late in the tech tree its ok.

I plan to create a mission that enables the unit to pull a popup selection list of qualifying unit types and you basically just 'upgrade' the unit into that type but the unit retains an identifier that keeps allowing the mission to be called up at any time. No movement involved in changing form and many upgrade prereqs (including the cost) are ignored. Shouldn't be too hard a project actually... rather simple - so when I get to a point where I'm ready to make that unit I'll develop out the necessary programming. It would work generically for other polymorphic parameters as well which would be cool for Fantasy mods off of C2C down the road. As usual, incorporating it into the AI will be the interesting part but by the time I go to create this effect I should be so familiar with all the AI structures for units that it won't be tough to work it in where necessary.

One thing I'm trying to sort out would be how to work equipments on such a unit but I'll figure it out somehow.

I'm glad you liked this mapped out progression of Troids into Nanotroids. I think it should be pretty wicked cool. Soon as I had sorted it out I was rather attached to the progression. Having Nanite Clouds at Weather Control seemed... incorrect. Perhaps a play on words but just not quite right.

I assume the AI will be taught how to do this too. So we won't have AI just changing the unit every turn in some loop where they never stop changing the unit.

I looked for the Galactic thread and couldn't find it... I might be able to find some more time to research that if you can link me to it.

I will try to find it. The info might be in one of the tech tree threads. MrAzure made lots of threads.

The one thing that stands out on that list that would really have an impact on the navies (which is as far as I'm going into lategame devel at the moment) was Neuron Armament... I'd like to get a better idea of what he meant by this and how it would differ from other weapon forms at this time. Perhaps an improved Ion weapon might be in order from such a tech.

Well "Binary Omnipresense" sounds really cool as a tech. I think that would be one we might want to use.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I looked for the Galactic thread and couldn't find it... I might be able to find some more time to research that if you can link me to it.

Ok here are some related threads and posts.

-Future Timeline
--Nano Era

- C2C - Transhuman Era
- C2C - Galactic Era

- Science Fiction Era Thread

I have not looked too deep into them, but here are some of the main threads at least.

EDIT: Some more ...

- LS612 Concerns and Recommendations
- One of MrAzure's old tech trees.
- Some techs explained.
- Another old tech tree.

EDIT2:

Finally found the last version of his tech tree. I do not recall if this was made when he first came or the 2nd time he was active here on our forum.

Note that at one point before MrAzure left for the 2nd time he deleted a lot of his posts. I know he put some back but it was big loss of cool ideas.

EDIT3:

The more I look the more I think we should focus on everything up to the end of the Transhuman Era and leave the Galactic Era for later development. When we can really focus on the Galactic Era.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Honestly half the point of putting in the new tech here is to give a more appropriate x placement for Somali Pirates basing them on the progression scales (and on the Earth timetable.) If you wish we can ignore Urban Culture altogether and place them at Extreme Sports instead. This would be to reflect upon the kinds of boats they use (speedboats) being relatively prolific within the nation. I had originally considered that but it didn't quite sound right.

If you basing it on Speedboats then they would come in at Water Sports (x67). but I think that is WAY too early.

Which is why it didn't sound quite right. Trying to place a modern phenomenon that's actually quite low tech on a tech tree is not easily done.

This is why I felt the new tech would serve the purpose best.

(Droids is actually tagged as Automated Services right now!)

Oh I did not realize that. I am just looking at stuff through the civpedia, not the game code.

Happens to me all the time

I agree with you technologically but yes I did mean a new type, something just as enhanced as the food. We also apparently from my readings lately, need to have a resource at Liquid Metals. Apparently the Shockwave engine was supposed to use Liquid Metals as a fuel source... I still think a combination of the two would be best, representing what's used at differing stages within the engine.

Yea liquid metals are needed. I think MrAzure even explained why at some point. Now if you want some super biofuel to help fusion reactors we could make one. But we should think of a different name than biofuel. Though we could have it require biofuel in its manufacturing/refining.

He explained liquid metals were the fuel. I propose it's ONE of the fuels.

As for the name, biofuel was put in there to show concept, the name is less important. Since we want a second type then perhaps Enriched Biofuel until we think of a better name?

So the name should have to do with this. Self-teaching AI perhaps. Cognizant Computing probably covers the concept pretty well but leads us down the road to the same dilemma. Open to more suggestions and I'll be thinking about it further.

whatever you think it should be renamed to. As of now I think it requires/leads to too many techs to remove the tech from the tech tree. However it is an empty tech so we could use it for what we need.

Adaptive AI ?

We're going to need to brainstorm names here I think...

If equipped properly to do so from technology derived from this tech, yes... exactly. It helped me to plot out when to unlock the units that should be able to detect cloaking. Something I should've been doing all along is determining where detection tech emerges but I don't think we have a problem there - if we want to make some backroom tech tree notes and keep them solid somewhere I can try to work through and determine that for all invisibility types but I think we're generally fine... just needed to figure it out for this and a few others through this planning stage round.

I think this was the first one I saw of your conceal/reveal type techs. Just making sure I understood what you were trying to do. I am looking forward to all the new types of camo/invisible types.

Cool.

New form of Invisibility that's more advanced than Cloaking.
Invisibility: Materials shift the passage of light so as to make the object nearly invisible or mini cameras and display paneling work in tandem to make the object seem invisible.
Cloaking: A specialized Electromagnetic field diverts light around the object so as to make it completely invisible BUT can be detected with advanced scanners at Optronics.
Void: All waves are quantum teleported through the object and thus deny the Optronic scanners an ability to detect the diversion field used in cloaking.

Placing it at Abyss Colonization is a bit of a play on words that works in well with the advancing of the Sub line there as well. To further support this, I postulate that it's research taking place in sustained high pressure deep sea environments that enables the discovery of this new 'cloaking' system. Perhaps they find a fish that uses this technology in a biological manner and manage to capture how the mechanism can be replicated.

Note, this most recent review will require some reworking of the visibility/invisibility charts.

Oh I though it was just because the subs traveled in deeper waters. And it was like a sub-submarine or something. If its jut a play on words then we might want a better tech. Because Abyss Colonization I don't think has anything to do with cloaking.

How about we move it to Animamaterials (x113). It supposedly has new regenerative fabrics and it uses "anima" instead of "nanites". According to MrAzure.

Nanobots -> Nanites -> Anima

Which are more biological than nanites, but also keep their artificial roots.

hmm... I'll have to evaluate the impact that would have on unit prereqs. Initially it looks like it would work but it could have a number of other consequences on unit combat assignments and prereqs for not only the units adjusted but for the next lines... will probably be ok. The goal, in part, was to put the ability on a tech that was out of the way of other ship's tech paths so that only a few were requiring this tech. I think Animamaterials might squash some of that strategic scatter of prereqs. Not sure yet.

I'm not sure what Artificial Nucleosynthesis is supposed to be exactly... maybe that would be even more appropriate. The materials of the ship aren't really the factor here - it's more of a REALLY advanced physics trick.

Psionics. Technological comes earlier and doesn't have the weaponized application that the actual Psionic style would. This unlocks this for both human and machine as while Humans start locking on to how this works and developing it more fully backed by advanced genomics, machines would quickly replicate the process technologically and be right in the thought stream with us as soon as it becomes commonplace capabilities for people.

As a weapon it's a developed capacity for willpower to override others (interpersonal mind control) and a Psychic Shout capability that can mentally stun opponents (done as a collective of minds it can be quite overwhelming to the victims who weren't braced for it.)

Offensively it doesn't work too well against Troids but they can use it very well against Humans. Ends up being something of an EMP vs People.

Its pushing into the "magic" stuff, but I suppose since ti so late in the tech tree its ok.

I think of it less as magic and more as superhumanism. I don't doubt the ability of the mind to perform this stuff in the least bit (I've experienced brief moments of it myself) but I do have strong doubts that waving your hands about and being dramatic while chanting is going to achieve anything.

I plan to create a mission that enables the unit to pull a popup selection list of qualifying unit types and you basically just 'upgrade' the unit into that type but the unit retains an identifier that keeps allowing the mission to be called up at any time. No movement involved in changing form and many upgrade prereqs (including the cost) are ignored. Shouldn't be too hard a project actually... rather simple - so when I get to a point where I'm ready to make that unit I'll develop out the necessary programming. It would work generically for other polymorphic parameters as well which would be cool for Fantasy mods off of C2C down the road. As usual, incorporating it into the AI will be the interesting part but by the time I go to create this effect I should be so familiar with all the AI structures for units that it won't be tough to work it in where necessary.

One thing I'm trying to sort out would be how to work equipments on such a unit but I'll figure it out somehow.

I'm glad you liked this mapped out progression of Troids into Nanotroids. I think it should be pretty wicked cool. Soon as I had sorted it out I was rather attached to the progression. Having Nanite Clouds at Weather Control seemed... incorrect. Perhaps a play on words but just not quite right.

I assume the AI will be taught how to do this too. So we won't have AI just changing the unit every turn in some loop where they never stop changing the unit.

Yeah, it'll have to be a matter of simply adapting to the best form for the current need. Might require its own AI setting. Again, as usual it's the AI that will be the tough part. But I'll have a bit better familiarity with it by then.

The one thing that stands out on that list that would really have an impact on the navies (which is as far as I'm going into lategame devel at the moment) was Neuron Armament... I'd like to get a better idea of what he meant by this and how it would differ from other weapon forms at this time. Perhaps an improved Ion weapon might be in order from such a tech.

Well "Binary Omnipresense" sounds really cool as a tech. I think that would be one we might want to use.

Sounds a bit later then the naval upgrade chain remains valid.

Ok here are some related threads and posts.

Thanks for those... it'll make for some good reading.

The more I look the more I think we should focus on everything up to the end of the Transhuman Era and leave the Galactic Era for later development. When we can really focus on the Galactic Era.

What I've got so far here is as far as I'd planned to go with tech work in the Galactic era... its enough to justify the progressions on these units and what takes place beyond that or develops around that is something I'm more than happy to leave alone for now. This project wasn't intended to become a Galactic Tech tree development project but I do want the proper landing points for the techs they need. If these naval units that crossover into land use as well are all the game has (besides what it already does) at the end of the tech tree then at least it has something deeper than what we've got now. As we work through more units and other design paths we'll fill in more gaps there later. If that process means making some adjustments to what's done for this project then so be it. The tree is always a work in progress. Forming a few more vertebra to work the future around from this project should really only help down the road.

 

[Faustmouse]

Affective Algorithm along with other "software" buildings exist as a building (-chain). You might want to have a look at those.

Your plans sound pretty cool! I can probably find some time to make future buildings for you if needed, however, I propably won't have enough time to make them up by myself.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Thanks Mouse... I'll let you know if buildings are going to be required. Surely some naval buildings for training and such may be in order.

So Affective Algorythms has been turned into a building (or set of buildings) eh? What would YOU suggest for a renaming of the Synthetic Sentience tech?

@Hydro:

I'm not sure what Artificial Nucleosynthesis is supposed to be exactly... maybe that would be even more appropriate. The materials of the ship aren't really the factor here - it's more of a REALLY advanced physics trick.

Checking into it, this is where we start getting some molecular generation and submolecular manipulation - not a stretch to take this tech to also mean an ability to generate a Quantum field that transports incoming wave energies and transports them to the opposite side of the zone to continue on their original trajectories.

Additionally, this tech, albeit one step further than Abyss Colonization, is really a perfect fit for not disturbing the combat class assignments. Just means that the Sub and Pirate are held off a little longer is all.

So I would be more than willing to work in INVISIBILITY_VOID off this tech. The only thing I don't like is it's now only one column away from the detection capabilities but that's down a whole different road and even one tech column down a different road can mean a lot of time in tech development. Besides, that's generally how most invisibility detections work... right at the same time as one is developed the tech to detect it is developed as well - just not widely applied for a while.

So this works for me... does it work for you?

 

[Faustmouse]

Thanks Mouse... I'll let you know if buildings are going to be required. Surely some naval buildings for training and such may be in order.

So Affective Algorythms has been turned into a building (or set of buildings) eh? What would YOU suggest for a renaming of the Synthetic Sentience tech?

Sure, but for me it seems more like you are fleshing out the whole era(s) a lot more

Yes it was. I also remember selflearning Ai stuff, Facial and Gesture Recognition, and even a selfaware AI and such. For me, as buildings, they don't make much sense. Why would you need to develope the algorithm in every city over and over again?

No idea about the naming, I'll leave this to you, native-speakers For me they are all more or less "two fancy words connected to each other".

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sure, but for me it seems more like you are fleshing out the whole era(s) a lot more

Yes it was. I also remember selflearning Ai stuff, Facial and Gesture Recognition, and even a selfaware AI and such. For me, as buildings, they don't make much sense. Why would you need to develope the algorithm in every city over and over again?

No idea about the naming, I'll leave this to you, native-speakers For me they are all more or less "two fancy words connected to each other".

Well you DO make a very good point... Affective Algorythms does not strike me as appropriate as a building - far more appropriate as a tech...

My intention isn't as much to flesh out the techs as it is to sort out the navies BUT on that note, certainly buildings in the later eras are a bit sparse. The late game techs in general are under-developed as Arakhor has been apt to point out. Many of those techs have nothing to offer at the moment. At least the navies will help in that regard somewhat. Though new techs are being added, more are getting some use. And the new techs are generally for weapon system accesses so will probably apply to new units and promotions in spades by the time its all said and done.