NC CLXXIII - Pericles of Greece

[elitetroops]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Pericles of Greece, whom we last played in NC CXXXVI. The Greeks start with Fishing and Hunting.

• 
  Traits: Pericles is Creative and Philosophical. CRE give +2 in each city, meaning they grow without your having to built monuments and libraries, and also lets you build those libraries (plus theatres and the UB, Odeon) for half the hammers. PHI gives you +100% Great Person points and half-price universities.

• 
  The UB: The Odeon, a Colosseum that gives +2 instead of +1, +1 from Hit Singles, +3 and can turn 2 citizens into artists. Since Pericles builds this building at half price, it's the cheapest happiness you can build in the game, apart from HR warriors (but unlike warriors, the odeon doesn't cost gold in upkeep).

• 
  The UU: The Phalanx, an Axeman with +100% defence against chariots, the usual bane of axemen.

Here's our start:

Spoiler map details: :

Hemispheres, medium sealevel, 2 varied continents, tiny islands, one added AI.

Spoiler map edit :

Swapped 2 resources

Spoiler resources swapped :

The rice you see in the screenshot was a bit further away, while that tile had gems.

Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC173_Pericles_Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[elitetroops]

Reserved.

 

[elitetroops]

I have no time to play this week, but will give it a go next week. I've been trying to decide between immortal and deity for this one, and now I think that is exactly what I will do. Go between immortal and deity. In other words, deity difficulty, but AI starts with immortal starting units. I believe this difficulty has sometimes been called immortal+.

I'm attaching an immortal+ starting save to this post (normal speed, NHNE), in case there are other players like me who find immortal a bit too easy, but the thought of playing deity too daunting (Gumbolt, I'm looking at you ). Barb techs are already added in this save.

 

[Gumbolt]

I don't play civ 4 enough to think about deity but I really should try it some day. Maybe I could rise to the challenge? Will have a look at this at some point.

I certainly think you are capable of deity level Elite. We didn't finish that last SGOTM game by luck. Your skills on the previous NC game demonstrated your skills on Immortal.

If you have added an AI it would make it a tougher deity map?

 

[ConfusedCounsel]

Interesting opening position.
Settling in place gives you a bonus hammer, a bonus turn and Great Lighthouse possibilities, but settling one west gives you a rice pad and more land tiles. On higher difficulties it also gives your working stuff to do, because I believe agriculture->animal husbandry leaves you a couple turns to spare, iirc. Scout movement should tell us more.

 

[elitetroops]

If you have added an AI it would make it a tougher deity map?

I think easier the more AI there are. Less land for the AI, less risk that someone grows too big and runs out of control.

I've never tried playing this kind of immortal+ level, but I imagine it should be a lot easier than normal deity as the AI don't get 2 settlers, you don't get boxed in so fast. But still it should be tougher than immortal. I've always felt the jump from immortal to deity is too big, so this seems like a natural way to bridge the gap. Edit: also, the barb invasion should be significantly delayed when they don't have 2 settlers, which makes the opening a lot easier than normal deity.

@ConfusedCounsel, I think you are right that there will be a couple of free worker turns after farming the corn. But we are creative, so should have 2nd border pop by the time corn is farmed and worker can put a couple of turns into rice farm anyway for 2nd/3rd/nth city. (Thought the palace gives more culture than it does). I doubt I'd be moving off the PH here unless scout finds something spectacular.

 

[Pangaea]

I have managed to get wins on Deity, and elitetroops is a better and more knowledgeable player than me, so I'm 100% sure you can hack it at Deity too I agree the step from Immortal to Deity is pretty huge, though.

That said, how about a Deity+ save?

Always nice to start on a plains hill. Since we start with Fishing it would be good with a sea resource, but I guess (technically) 4 food sources is hoping for too much. Though I consider plains cow more as a mine than food tbh.

Creative on normal settings pops 3rd ring border quite soon, turn 25, but there will still be 'dead' worker turns I think, since we get the worker 3 turns earlier by having a plains hill city square (12-turn worker instead of 15). Agri->AH is the obvious opening here though, and we can always hope for something else juicy to pop out from the shadows on scout moves or city foundation.

I'm one of those people who isn't a fan of coastal capitals, but I don't see a good reason to move either, and it's a good chance to go for the GLH (instead of Oracle?). Given it's continents, there will probably be many coastal cities, so GLH should be strong. On watery maps it's a ridiculously powerful wonder.

I am actually currently playing a Pericles map, some details in the HoF for those who stumble in there from time to time, but will give this one a swirl later. As I discovered in that game, the Odeon is a mighty fine unique building. Coupled with CRE, it's dirt cheap too, and provides both happiness and extra culture.

Since there is jungle by the rice, it's more likely to settle west- or southwards, so think I'd move the scout W and SW, to see what might be added to a SIP city.

Doesn't look like a very strong cottage capital, though there are a few suitable tiles, but very strong on production. Depending on what else is around, it might be an option to move the capital further west/south-west (if more grassy rivers), and put the HE in the current SIP spot for a coastal ship pumping machine for overseas invasions later. I don't like to move capitals though, so it would have to be a might fine alternative.

 

[Pangaea]

As an aside, I'd like to point out that although some players are discussing Immortal and even Deity difficulty levels, this is the Noble Club, so please don't be discouraged from posting about games at those levels. The basic idea behind this series is for players to learn and eventually step up to higher difficulty levels, both by experience and discussions. We're not all barb Maces in the early BC

 

[elitetroops]

You are so right about border pops. Don't know where I got the idea that palace gives 4 culture... That's 3 dead worker turns if you go AG-AH.

Settling decision maybe not that straight forward after all. I think this start has several good possibilities.

And yes, players of all levels are welcome! Don't be afraid to join just because some of us old timers have learned so much from playing previous NC games that we are now discussing higher difficulties.

 

[dutchfire]

I plan on playing it at Emperor. Hemisphere can be difficult, if you conquer your continent, then what? Invade the others or try a space race.

 

[Gumbolt]

Still finishing off another game.It's in the closing stages. Maybe focus on this over the weekend.

With immortal plus the downside could be deity barbs with immortal expansion. Could require some serious fog busting?? On a philosophical leader it should make the science part easier?

 

[ConfusedCounsel]

1000 AD, time for an update. Immortal difficulty.

Spoiler :

The start is the only difficult part of this map, thus far. You have very little commerce, at points I was working sea tiles instead of the land tiles in my capital just because they have some commerce. The map more or less forces you to research everything (can't skip cottage or animal husbandry before going sailing+masonry) if you go for the GLH and actually getting is hard. Had to restart-cheat a little.

Once you get it, however, it is easy sailing. No one else seems to do amazing, least of all the AI on your own continent. Plenty of land in the north they left up should you fancy settling, as well as decent islands to the south.
Went for construction after currency and catapulted Peter quite smoothly, despite the relatively late date for an axe+catapult assault. Got rid of him somewhere in the 300-500 range. Managed to even win Music and get the Great library despite doing some warring. Asoka had feudalism, so wasn't viable target for immediate aggression, but that was fine. It gave me the time to win a lib race for nationalism with 3 scientists and build some infrastructure.

Next up is Asoka. With just a leftover stack of axes (or whatever they are) and catapults I already have a higher power rating (19 to 6 cities helps), so trebs plus a couple of maces should do the trick without having to wait for gunpowder and military tradition, even while building the Tash.
Might not even go cuirassiers, steel might be better on this map, will know more once I know what the as of yet unmet civs are up to.

The French and English have appropriately enough been warring and neither appears to be winning, leaving them easy pickings for my vastly larger empire some time in the future. Pretty confidant about victory at this point, it is just the time and manner.

 

[Pangaea]

This game...

"I'll just move the scout and see."

BOOM! 90 turns pass.

Spoiler :

Tempting to settle elsewhere after moving the scout (W-SW), but I SIP. Agri-AH; 2 dead worker turns, so not too bad. Found Peter, and stole a truckload of workers from him. He kept sending them Kind of unfortunate that I settled on top of copper, as I 'wasted' a very good tile, but didn't know the tech when the city was settled. It meant phalanx production, though, so they started churning out. Peter built the GW, so we got some experience from a train of barbs, but nothing phalanxes couldn't handle. Since I already had -9 from worker steals from Peter, I decided to try to wipe him -- with fancy axes. Had forgotten how nasty those wars are. The GLH doesn't do much with only 3 cities, so the economy of course crashed, and the phalanxes died in droves. But slowly and gradually we withered away at him, and now in 550BC Peter is finally no more. I have 8 cities and a settler is on route for another island city. Maintenance will be steep I reckon, but hopefully another good trade route will be worth it.

Have 10 workers and have stolen 8 of them. Scratching my head to come up with stuff for them to do, so I have built lots of pointless roads every which way, pre chopped a great deal, and chopped a LOT of pre-Math forests.

Just got a GMerchant from the GLH. No chance to get a GS first, because I only learnt Writing last turn! Am I right in thinking he won't fetch much gold so early in the game? Would it actually be better to bulb Metal Casting with him, and trade for Alpha? Churchill sailed by, and he's the only one with Alpha.

 

[ConfusedCounsel]

Pangaea:

Spoiler :

GM is worth at least 900 commerce. If you can manage to get him overseas, at least 1100. Worth more then metalcasting, especially if you have some libraries. Granted, the benefit isn't immediate as he has to get there first and you need to spend the money by having your slider up. On the other hand, do you really need metal casting? We're not industrious. Math->Currency seems like what you want right now. I'd trade mission him.
However, you seem to know what you are doing, so maybe you know better either way.

 

[Pangaea]

@ConfusedCounsel

Spoiler :

If a GM so early still gets you 900-1100 then I guess it's worth it, and would be more than MC is worth. As you say, MC wouldn't be of much use right now, it's too early (when not IND), so it would mainly be a trading chip to get Alpha, and hopefully a bunch of other stuff. However, it looks like it would be better to send him to India, once I locate their capital.

 

[ConfusedCounsel]

Pangeae:

Spoiler :

I believe the commerce you get is 500 + 200xC. C being the worth of a trade route between the target city and your capital for the target city. So that would be at least 2, for at least 900. Early Great Merchants are very powerful in my experience.

 

[MegaLurker]

Sending the to the Temple of Artemis city is usually best, of course, even worth waiting for it to be built. But even if you get 1100 for the trade mission MC is probably better. It's not just a comparison of gold vs. beakers. MC is worth it's own beaker cost plus the beaker costs of whatever you're able to get for it, and what you're able to broker those other techs for. That can easily add up to several thousand beakers.

For example, MC for Alpha from the only AI that has it. Then Alpha for everything you can get for it from all the other AIs that can trade, then MC to those AIs for more goodies once they have Alpha. You can hope to get the entire Mysticism->Meditation->Priesthood line, Monarchy, any other early backfill you still lack (usually at least Archery and Masonry), Iron Working, even Math and Calendar if you wait long enough.

That might take 10-20 turns (or more) to get the best trades, but it would take you that long just to get your GM to the target city. If only one AI has Alpha and will trade with you, I'd bulb MC every time.

 

[ConfusedCounsel]

Sending the to the Temple of Artemis city is usually best, of course, even worth waiting for it to be built. But even if you get 1100 for the trade mission MC is probably better. It's not just a comparison of gold vs. beakers. MC is worth it's own beaker cost plus the beaker costs of whatever you're able to get for it, and what you're able to broker those other techs for. That can easily add up to several thousand beakers.

For example, MC for Alpha from the only AI that has it. Then Alpha for everything you can get for it from all the other AIs that can trade, then MC to those AIs for more goodies once they have Alpha. You can hope to get the entire Mysticism->Meditation->Priesthood line, Monarchy, any other early backfill you still lack (usually at least Archery and Masonry), Iron Working, even Math and Calendar if you wait long enough.

That might take 10-20 turns (or more) to get the best trades, but it would take you that long just to get your GM to the target city. If only one AI has Alpha and will trade with you, I'd bulb MC every time.

Sorry, I can't really agree with that. First you claim it is worth waiting for the temple of Artemis to be build, next you argue that speed is everything. I find this to be a bit weird, personally.
I agree that speed is important and can be a reason for bulbing instead of trade missioning. Waiting for ToA is the exact opposite, in my mind. It is waiting a potentially long time for a wonder that may not be build anywhere in your vicinity for an a bonus of 400 to 800. If you think 1100 in 5-6 turns, 10-12 max, is too little compared to the immediate benefit, is waiting 20, 30 turns for something that might not be build in a reachable place for 1500-1900 not worse?

Trading around is always good as well, but I don't see speed being that big of an issue here. You are likely to be able to trade for all that stuff anyway, regardless of whether you MC bulb or trade mission and math-currency yourself. Not only MC is worth its own beakers and the stuff you trade for it, the income of a trade mission is also worth its own beakers and the stuff you trade for what you beak with it. If we use 1100 as you did (graciously arguing against the strongest version of the opposite argument ), this will allow a fairly large empire for its time to run 100% science for quite a long period, at quite a high tech rate. If we assume 60% of the commerce has a library attached to it (no academy), that is (1.25x.6+.4)x1100 = 1.15x1100 = 1265 research beakers. Considerably more then the cost MC, even at immortal and deity.
In my mind, what I imagine Pangaea's empire to be based on his game description, is in an ideal position to benefit from a trade mission. It is early enough that the income is a huge deal but at the same time he has a large empire for, meaning 100% teching will research him quite fast as he churns through his cash. It is usually at this time that research slows down, in my experience, because you are forced to drastically lower your slider after early war. Not having to do that is huge.

On map specific stuff:

Spoiler :

Having played the map a bit, I think you overestimate the time it takes to get a Great Merchant to a place. Asoka is on the same continent and quite close to Moscow, which will be roaded. Even the French/English aren't super far away. Pangaea has only met the English and Asoka so far and only the French are meetable prior to optics. This isn't a Pangaea map, so this Alpha window isn't really the unique opportunity you paint it as, I think.

 

[Pangaea]

Pangeae:

Spoiler :

I believe the commerce you get is 500 + 200xC. C being the worth of a trade route between the target city and your capital for the target city. So that would be at least 2, for at least 900. Early Great Merchants are very powerful in my experience.

Thanks for that explanation of the GMerchant formula.

Guess I should update on what happened in my game, since there has been some discussion. At 1AD with 12 cities:

Spoiler :

Sent the GM and a pha over to India, doing a bit of exploring, since he'd only fetch 900g. Artemis had been built, but in France, and he hated me for declaring on his buddy Peter multiple times (-3 with de Gaulle, and -12 with Peter prior to death). I was storing what little gold we got at 0% because I hoped for a 70/30 GS for an Academy, and the dice rolled the right way here, so I got an Academy in 200BC. Popped the GM in Delhi then. Unfortunately we are losing absolutely ridiculous amounts of gold per turn (~150), but the GM did allow me full research for maybe 10 turns. Didn't go Math-Currency because others had both. Instead I went Aesth-Drama (Asoka did Lit, and I didn't have marble), and am now working on Music, two turns left, and when that is done we're out of cash, and breaking even at 20%.

Getting Aesthetics allowed me to get Alpha, and then some backfilling, plus finally IW and Math. I could put a little into Monarchy to get it now, but think it's better to secure Music first, and hope Drama doesn't go around in those two-three turns.

The empire is big, which is why we're bleeding money. I have 12 cities at 1AD, 5 of them captured. Another settler is due in 2T, and think I'll send him way north and get the marble there before Asoka heads across the strait.

de Gaulle demanded Aesthetics, which I ofc accepted, and that got him to Cautious, so I could open borders, and he's now finally open to tech trades (was worst enemy before). Not picked a religion yet because Asoka has barely spread his to me, but don't want to either, I think, because it's nice to be able to trade techs, and that may not be possible if Hindu Churchill-de Gaulle dislike our Buddhist Nirwana.

I'm building Research in a handful of cities because they don't have anything more sensible to do, and I need to get to Music, but despite not having Buro yet (nor Currency or CoL), we're doing 274 at 100%, largely thanks to the GLH and finally trade routes with all available AIs.

de Gaulle has MC and Calendar, so I hope to get that eventually (doesn't want to trade it yet), and Churchill has "don't wanna trade" Currency. Hopefully Music will be able to get me a lot of these techs once they're available on the market.

Almost forgot, but I built the HG recently, which bumped the pop up +12, so it's 64 now. Did it in the future NE city of Moscow.

Most of the Empire:

Spoiler :

Athens is size 11, with -3, but I haven't wanted to whip it due to nice trade routes and we'll soon have happiness anyway (Gems will help, plus hopefully soon Monarchy and Calendar).

Ctrl+I doesn't show the explored map, but I have a galley checking out England (due to the city founded in the bottom left corner, allowing it to travel across), and a workboat is working up the coast north of de Gaulle.

There is also a Fish+Crab city to the south of the visible map, and I recently plopped down a city north of the capital to help out with non-riverside cottages.

 

[elitetroops]

Sent the GM and a pha over to xxxxxxx, doing a bit of exploring, since he'd only fetch 900g. Artemis had been built, but in yyyyyyy, and he hated me for declaring on his buddy zzzzzzz multiple times

Great Merchants don't need open borders, doesn't matter how much they hate you.