NC CLXXVI Hannibal

[SammyW1000]

First turn settlement decision

Spoiler :

Moved the Warrior onto the gold. I settled 1S of the gold but already am concerned that sacrificing the 3 grasslands in order to be on the coast might be an error. Maybe will change my capital if there are better sites elsewhere once I have explored so more.

 

[Gumbolt]

@ Sammy

Spoiler :

That should be fine. Gives you option of Great Lighthouse too. So maybe be thinking coastal cities? You can always move your capital to a better spot later. Financial leaders loves cottages and coastal tiles.

 

[Gumbolt]

@ gator - I played Immortal not deity.

 

[Gator Country]

@ gator - I played Immortal not deity.

Thanks - I fixed it.

 

[Pengu]

Imm until 560 AD

Spoiler :

It was nice to see some gold in the crossso I SIP. Met Mehmet and Zara pretty early. I went the very slow route of building up my 1st city and avoiding immediate border friction with the other civs. This made me work more tiles and oracled currency.My 2nd city was one south of sheep. This made it both the horses and the gold in the borders.Zara got the gold spot to the south west though, but he was really cramped in as Mehmet expanded to the west. I cut mehmet of to the north by settling by the 3rd gold mine to the east. This forced Mehmet up the coast. There were a couple of barb cities between us that I took just in front of his nose. No religions were founded on the continent so I decided to go for early col to have a religion. Went early CS in hope that someone would get alpha but it took forever until Zara got it so I could backfill some techs. After the barb cities I have 10 cities and room for 2 more. All went into Conf being happy with each other which is both good or bad. Zara is stuck at 6 cities and Mehmet at 8. I missed out on TGL by 1 turn and was very late getting my academy. Did build the parthenon and MOM instead. Did get to music 1st so I used that to start a golden age and change my civics. Zara did found Christianity and switched religion making the situation tenuous. Now Zara(not Mehmet) is plotting and I have no clue on who. He is small but the most advanced so it will pretty big on who he declares upon. If he dows me and bribes in Mehmet on me I am pretty much toast. I am not that satisfied how it has gone,(too slow as usual) but at least I got philo 1st so I have a better shot at lib I think.

 

[Gumbolt]

@ pengu.

Spoiler :

Who is Zara putting all his EP towards??? Zara does plot at pleased. If he is pleased I would beg for gold and try and build up some defences. If he is likely to declare try to beg from Mehmet 1-2 turns before so he cannot be bribed into war with you.

If Zara and Mehmet both have phants you will need to consider your defences. You should certainly be scouting out Zara's stack. If you have mace that might be good. Sounds like you went music route.

Losing that southern gold site to Zara was not good. That was my second city.

 

[SammyW1000]

This is my save up to T50.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

At the moment I'm planning to go after Zara with the UU. That seems a better angle than founding cities in all that jungle to claim territory. I think there is time to build one more city in between the Pigs and Gold on the coast to the south of Carthage just to give me a little more production and to get the Gold tile contributing ASAP

I think Mehmet is probably going to pick up the elephants so he might have to wait a bit - I'm pretty happy with the current three cities and if I can pick up the Ethiopian capital I'll be fairly confident of getting to Macemen/Knights/Trebs before he gets to his UU

Obviously any advice is welcome - although my intention with this game is to play it through 'blind' and then go back and look at what I should have done at various points.

And if I've attached stuff in the wrong format let me know

 

[Gator Country]

@SammyW1000

Your post is fine, except that you should wrap spoiler tags around the screenshots as well as the text.

Regarding that -

Spoiler :

I would have settled the third city 1N of the gold on the coast myself. Assuming you're settling down there to block Zara (which is a good call), settling there would have deprived him of that gold, and you could work the pigs (and clams, after a border pop) for food. Plus, if you're thinking GLH, you'd have another coastal city to take advantage of it.

Also, another general comment based on what I'm seeing - don't be afraid to settle cities closer, to where where their BFCs overlap some. Besides the cities being able to share good tiles and keep them working, your maintenance costs will be lower.

Finally, get those cities connected to each other. Another advantage to settling near the gold would be that the city and your capital would already be connected with a trade route (with Sailing researched) without the need to build a road. Never mind - I see you're building more workers already.

 

[sampsa]

IMM/NH/NE/normal T50

Spoiler :

Moved warrior NW, spotted fish and decided to settle on the coastal plains hill. Probably will move capital later. Grow to work all good tiles (wb-worker-3warrior). Spotted a lot of good city sites with plenty of financial river tiles, have met only 2AIs. Both of these facts speak against early war, so I'll try to settle peacefully for now, starting from the ones that I think are most contested. Settler will be out T34.

Agri-AH-wheel-pot-myst-wri-(alpha). By T50 I managed to settle the southern spots. 2nd gold online soon, so ETA on alpha roughly T60. Won't get the stone pre-war unfortunately. Have 3 workers already, since lots of tiles to improve and roads to build. 4th settler out in 4 to claim sheep+gold+horse. Have woodsmanII too, maybe I'll consider worker steal / choke -type of war against Zara.

 

[InovA]

continued...

Up until 1600 AD:

Spoiler :

1260 AD: My golden age is ending this turn, I used the first set of civics during GA, switching to 2nd set for war with Mehmed.

And post-war:

*Note: Free Market was a mistake, I expected to have Astronomy and Oceanic trade available sooner. Organized Religion was "OK" but maybe Theocracy was better.

1380 AD: Declared war on Mehmed! Power ratio of 0.6 to Ottomans.
1400s: The war started slowly, killed a big stack of his (25 units) on the first turn, but didn't gain any key cities for a long time due to spies failing with 88% chance to cause a revolt. Also had few trebuchets.
Tech came to a complete stop after Democracy, Statue of Liberty should finish but I'm not sure if I'll be the first to Communism.
Mehmed should finish Astronomy by 1550 AD, I'll peace him for it when I'm ready.

My 0.6 ratio turned into 2.0 ratio in ~15 turns!
Met the others on 2nd continent!
Mongolia is the master of the Vikings and is plotting war. (Darius is his worst enemy)

1530 AD: Mehmed caps to me and I took his Notre Dame city!

1550 AD: Mongolia, on the verge of dominating Babylon and forcing his way to a 2nd vassal, has Ragnar renounce vassalship!

1580 AD: Uh. OK. Had a bit of a bug. Mongolia asks me to join in his war vs Hammurabi, I join. Hammurabi immediately asks me to join his war vs Vikings, I decline. Then the "We shall remember this." Line comes up, with the option to open trade table. I trade, ask what the price for peace is, he says impossible and the side panels close, but I can still ask him if he will accept this deal (assuming cease fire for nothing) and he accepts. This makes Mehmed also declare war and peace within the same turn.

1595 AD: I was first to Communism (Persia 1T away) and used a Great Engineer on The Kremlin, but still lost it by 1 turn! Damn, man.

Now Babylon is the vassal of the Vikings. Odd power swing, feels like some Game of Thrones backstabbing is going on over in Westeros. Yes, that continent was just officially named Westeros. This must mean I have dragons and wizards somewhere on my continent!!!

1600 AD: I'm slightly behind Darius in tech, the Vikings have the lead in culture but it's currently nothing to worry over (3000+ culture for 3rd city), and after the Vikings eliminated the threat of Mongolia ruling over 2 vassals, if anyone is dominating this game, it's me. Diplomacy is a scare, all of Westeros dislikes me or is cautious of me and the Vikings have a bromance with Mongolia, the 2 powerhouses on their continent. Also the 3 Buddhists are basically a pact now, with the Apostolic palace (Babylon) present I would worry of ever threatening the Vikings to where they may put a vote towards victory on the table.

I believe someone will plot war on Darius soon.

I'm putting all espionage (other than the amount needed to see teching) into Darius so I can steal any techs I fancy.

Maybe I'll war with Infantry + Tanks like I did in my Emperor game for the last NC. Had a close call with diplo and culture victories though.

Questions:

Spoiler :

If a civ owning the Apostolic Palace or UN becomes a vassal, do they still get to decide on what is voted upon/get an automatic bid, or is the right forfeited to their master?

Should I let a civ capitulate or go for the kill? In this case I think I was right to let him live so that I could start catching up in the tech game, but I can't help but wonder about having 5 more cities with the Statue, Notre Dame, and GLH bonuses. Not to mention many of them are strong enough cities to contribute greatly to future wars.

How many Golden Ages is too much?
I spent GP on 2 GAs and built the Taj Mahal, this seems like a good number. Maybe it's ok to spend 3 more GP on a GA with a PHI leader?

A lot of people love getting wins in the 1300-1599 range with endless Cuirs, do you usually stop tech 100% after getting MT and just go all-in with Cuirs/Galleons, or did you build up a stronger lead early on that it just seems like swift victories to me?

How am I going to kill the White Walkers in Westeros if I have no tech for Dragonglass or Valyrian steel?

 

[sampsa]

T95 (500BC)

Spoiler :

Possibly the luckiest turn set I have ever played. Was a bit cocky with the barbs, but my warriors held sheep/gold city having only ~70% odds. Could have been practically game over right there. After alpha went math-currency (BW,IW,sailing via trade), then noticed wonders are going slow so tried Oracle and took Civil Service 675BC. Won Confu too. Was able to sneak a gift city to Mehmed (got +1 liberation bonus, too). Game seems won in any way that I like, but I guess I'm going maces just because I can get them pre 1AD.

Oh and Mehmed planted a double deer city up north, but Hippo being the holy city + Oracle city it should flip to me in no time. Also swords on the way to capture barb city NE.

T115 (1AD)

Spoiler :

Attacked 125BC with 5 maces, catapults to follow. Most cities whipping/chopping military. Mehmed's northern city doesn't seem to be flipping, at least not before Hippo pops 4th ring. Moved palace to the best cottage spot. Have academy there too.

Optics in soon, I guess I'm going straight to astro to conquer all. Mehmed WHEOOHRN on Zara, too. Shared war might push him to friendly, although I don't think it matters much.

Zara has nothing to counter my maces so the war will be easy. Lost only one cat so far.

 

[sampsa]

@InovA

Spoiler :

If a civ owning the Apostolic Palace or UN becomes a vassal, do they still get to decide on what is voted upon/get an automatic bid, or is the right forfeited to their master?

I think the vassal still controls the building.

Should I let a civ capitulate or go for the kill? In this case I think I was right to let him live so that I could start catching up in the tech game, but I can't help but wonder about having 5 more cities with the Statue, Notre Dame, and GLH bonuses. Not to mention many of them are strong enough cities to contribute greatly to future wars.

Depends. Often you are able to chain-capitulate the world, as your new vassals add to your power. Here that might not be doable as it's already 1600AD plus continents makes it more difficult.

How many Golden Ages is too much?
I spent GP on 2 GAs and built the Taj Mahal, this seems like a good number. Maybe it's ok to spend 3 more GP on a GA with a PHI leader?

When the game is close to the finish, Golden ages often offer the best payback for . If bulbs/trade missions are not useful for you, sure, spend 3 for a GA.

A lot of people love getting wins in the 1300-1599 range with endless Cuirs, do you usually stop tech 100% after getting MT and just go all-in with Cuirs/Galleons, or did you build up a stronger lead early on that it just seems like swift victories to me?

Depends on how close the beneficial techs are. Rifling for cavalry? Chemistry for frigates? Steel for the unstoppable cannons? If they are too far to be reached in a meaningful time, go 100% and use spy revolts.

How am I going to kill the White Walkers in Westeros if I have no tech for Dragonglass or Valyrian steel?

Use the Karelian Kantele.

 

[SammyW1000]

@ Gator

The thumbnail is an attachment and I can work out how to spoiler it. Tried copying and pasting it into the post instead but the paste option was greyed out. Do I have to upload it to an image hosting site first?

Cheers for the feedback though!

 

[elitetroops]

You can't spoiler the thumbnails, unfortunately. You can use an image hosting site like imgur to upload your pics and post in spoilers here. They provide the BBCode for easy copy pasting.

 

[sampsa]

500AD

Spoiler :

Got Zara, his capital had SH+HG+GLH. 3 turns until astro. Probably taking out other continent first and leaving Mehmed as last. Only techs that I really need anymore are engineering and feudalism. 2nd(!) coming soon (1st was used for an academy), I guess will run a golden age. Most AIs still lack feudalism so if I can ship my troops there quickly there will be no resistance.

 

[Gumbolt]

@ Sampsa

Spoiler :

Another master class from you. Capturing GLH from Zara was a very good thing. Ottoman at pleased = good trading partner. He will probably peace vassel. You should smash my date easily.

@ Sammy

Spoiler :

3 cities by 2000bc is fine. City placement needs a lot of work.

The Clams/pigs gold city should of been a no brainer.

Hadrum is a terrible city without IW. Surrounded by jungle. Will take many, many turns to prove useful. 30+ turns??

Not sure about HBR next? Why not an axe rush??? Do you want war or to build GLH?? GLH requires lots of coastal cities. Do you plan to build some?

The horse city might of been better near sheep. Work sheep for 4f. Whip monument. 10 turns later use horse/sheep and gold. A worker build here is slowing down the city.

You had 3 gold resources nearby and so far you have only really used 1.

Workers are 4 turns in your capital. 1 chop would speed that up. You could even 2 pop whip a worker?? Why have you not adopted slavery???

Overall you need more focus and direction in your play. When you settle cities think long and short term. Initially a city should always look to have at least 1 food in inner ring.

 

[SammyW1000]

I'm currently at 1000BC

@ Gumbolt

Spoiler :

Thanks for the advice. I can see that you're right - posting where I am 25 turns later below and I haven't moved that much further forward due to the issues you've highlighted.

Re. Hadrum the idea initally was to use the grain, pigs and cottage the two clear grassland tiles and then keep it at that size with the whip until I had a spare worker to start clearing the jungle to grow it further. One thing I did wrong was not having a worker spare to immediately improve the grain and also not whipping the monument.

Horse city should have been 1N - as you say I could then have worked the sheep immediately. I think I got distracted by trying to keep the floodplain tile but going 1N would have got me an extra grassland river to make up for that.

Shifted focus away from going for GLH to war as I don't want to get hemmed in and have to deal with two opponents nearby of close strength to me - getting rid of one will hopefully give me the advantage in getting rid of the other. I wanted to take a bit of time to build up my infrastructure which is why I'm using the UU not Axes.

Re slavery/chops I was trying to avoid using these without granaries/maths respectively as it seemed to be inefficient. If you whip do you keep the food in the food bar or does it go back to 0?

I definitely need to use my workers more efficiently - at the moment I have them running from place to place firefighting rather than staying in one place and planning ahead. I probably needed one more in hindsight.

1000 BC screenshot

Spoiler :

 

[sampsa]

@SammyW

Spoiler :

Gumbolt already pointed out some things, but I'll add a few points concerning this screenshot.

• first build in new cities should not be a worker. This habit slows them down a lot. Capital should be providing workers for new cities.
• it's too early for a granary in capital. You have 4 very strong, improved tiles so you should be stagnating at size 4 for now building settlers/workers. This also means your workers don't need to be improving more tiles for capital, and can focus elsewhere.
• you shouldn't fortify warriors inside new cities, but rather fog bust outside of your borders. You only need the warrior in the city when you are growing into unhappiness.
• you should run "binary research", either 0% or 100% slider.

@Gumbolt

Spoiler :

Thanks. Pretty sure it's 1200AD at the latest, unless things go horribly wrong... Will try to finish today.

 

[VJ.]

@ VJ.

Spoiler :

Though I can't see your tech path, military choices, WWs, or anything the like, I could see you had better, more established cities than both of these civs earlier on. I would expect that there were a few opportunities for you to use a military tech advantage on both of them and wipe at least one of them out as early as the 500 BC - 200 AD range. (Also look at how Gumbolt played his, axe rushing the Ottomans, crippling them for the rest of the game.)

However if pre-renaissance military isn't your style it is important to keep good relations with at least 1 nearby civ. They won't declare war on you if they're friendly and will often join a war with you (for a price.)

Some good ways to increase diplomacy would be to adopt their religion, give in to demands (if they demand a tech and you want them as your ally, I say give it always!), gift them unnecessary resources (That 2nd pig tile does you no good, 1st sheep and cow also unnecessary early on with the +Health boost.), and having a mutual military struggle at some point.

Spoiler :

They were both allied with me for ages - I switched civics to liberalism and they declared war that turn. As I was on good terms with them both before that, it caught me by surprise. I wasn't ready for the attack, despite my tech edge over them) - I'm usually a Warlord player - the AI is far more brutal on noble!

Spoiler :

How can you lose to war elephants in 1510ad? By then you should of had mace and pikes? Or at least cuirs??? Looks like something went wrong with your game here.

Of those 2 leaders only Zara can plot war at pleased. Meaning the other was probably bribed into war?? Did you not see the red fist???

Spoiler :

I switched civics & they both went from being pleased to war in the same turn

Spoiler :

I agree with Inova that perhaps you should of been actively trying to take down both Ai on your land mass before 1300ad. If you want to win by domination this is a minimum target for immortal. Even if it just means 2 vassels.

Looking at your 500bc report. Losing lots of workers to barbs seems a bit strange. You had copper nearby. It was not difficult to fogbust this game with a few warriors/axes.

I'm usually a Warlord player with the occassional win on Noble (I was playing on Noble) - not an immortal player! Re: fogbusting, someone else pointed that out earlier - it's not a tactic I knew about until recently.

Spoiler :

You missed out on the crabs fish city early on south of your capital. 1000bc your screen shot shows you are building Moai Statues?? Terrible build for 1000bc. Adds nothing to your empire that early on. 23 turns??? Ackkk. I did build it but much later with double production too.

By 1000bc your third city should really of border popped. Are you whipping your cities much??? You have no spawn busters out in the fog?? On immortal it's better to have spawn busters instead of city guard. Unless the city is likely to be unhappy. By 1800bc barbs will be entering your borders if you don't spawn bust.

It's clear to me your issues on this game started very early on. If you only had 5-6 cities by this date you would of struggled. By 1000ad I had almost 20 cities.

Try again. Be more aggressive and focus more. Oracle should of been easy here. Even Great Lighthouse is possible. Ivory was somewhat close too.

Spoiler :

My usual play style is peacemonger, not aggressive - I agree, my issues started earlier on, I did fix the ones pointed out to me. e.g. cancelled the Maoi statues & built another settler instead. I was whipping quite efficiently too. I missed out on the Oracle by about a turn ot two, but I did build Great Lighthouse.
By the time I was attacked my biggest problem was actually just not enough military units - I had a tech advantage, but the AI had numbers and is more brutal than I'm used to on Warlord. I suspect that a better player would have won the game from my position before I was attacked. But hey, you live & learn.

Thanks both for your critique

 

[VJ.]

I forgot to add, thanks to everyone generally for sharing their games, giving tips etc. This single thread has made my play in my couple of subsequent personal games so much better - I just wish I'd found out about this forum earlier!