NC CXXIV Ramesses II of the Egyptians

[learner gamer]

@dalamb:

Spoiler :

Given your post, I took this out for a quick spin to 1520 BC on monarch / normal (as opposed to your monarch / epic), to illustrate an opening that (a) addresses your point re: the economy and (b) might help you in future wars if using war chariots. Hope what follows helps.

FWIW, my initial tech path went AH > mining > masonry > BW. The idea here was to (a) find and get online the UU ASAP and (b) use the commerce from the two quarries to get to BW. On higher levels, BW may well take precedence over masonry to accelerate builds via chops.

Initial builds went worker > 2 warriors > worker, since (a) we have loads of good tiles to improve and (b) I was unable to steal a very early worker from Gandhi after my starting warrior was seriously injured by barb animals, although he did manage to locate Gandhi's borders. Then builds went war chariot (and used barb animals nearby for XP) > barracks > * war chariot. Never used the whip – just grew to pop 5 and worked the corn and hammer heavy tiles.

Eventually stole a worker from Gandhi and auto razed a Holy City when he was DoW'd the second time around. Once five tiles were improved in Thebes meanwhile, one worker chopped whilst the other two (one captured) roaded to Gandhi.

With Gandhi dead the turn after the third DoW in 1960 BC, all healthy war chariots then went out searching for Izzy, whilst the capital continued to build more chariots (and ended up with 11, having never used the whip once). With Izzy located, she was DoW'd once, just as she was about to settle Barcelona. Peace was taken and she was then DoW'd again a couple of turns later when all war chariots (bar one kept in the capital to take out a nearby exploring Izzy archer) were in place to attack. The save has just seen Izzy taken down.

On the tech front, with BW in, I teched pottery > writing, to open up access to libraries (and granaries) to secure the economy. With writing in (aided by war booty), I could breathe a little easier and teched hunting (for the ivory in Delhi) and fishing. Fishing was initially taken to open up access to WBs – because attacking Izzy actually makes most sense IMHO if another AI can be found. Otherwise you find yourself in semi-isolation with Joao, which gimps a lot of tech trading – and having to pay non-trivial distance maintenance costs on Delhi and Madrid. As it happened though, Madrid's seafood (discovered on taking the city) means you want fishing anyway.

Once writing was discovered and I saw that Izzy had only settled Madrid, I decided to stop producing chariots from the capital and build a library and granary (to within a turn) in the city. As a result, I'll now look to run two scientists in Thebes once it's produced it's granary and a settler (into which a chop's just been sunk) - to help the economy stay afloat and pay the maintenance costs on the captured cities. They'll be removed eventually – perhaps when I pop a GS – but they help with the short term need for beakers.

From here, research could go in a number of directions, especially since not a single wonder has yet been built. And what's more of course, I'm certain that others on here could do a far better job of this opening than I've done. However, I hope that an explanation of an alternative opening such as this helps you. In particular, the point I'd stress is that, with units like war chariots and their extra base strength, you just want to pump out as many of them as you can ASAP. In other words, you actually don't necessarily need to spend another 100 hammers on a settler (plus perhaps more on workers) settling a second city (on monarch anyway) to do some damage. And when that damage is done by the way, make sure you run specialists in at least one city - possibly two here given all the food in Madrid - to help keep your economy afloat.

All the best for the rest of your game.

 

[Robert FIN]

Just came to my mind; Everyone who is thinking 'bout moving up a level, I'd hi'ly recommend you to move up NOW!! Its exellent leader this time, and NobleZarkon made exellent job when doing the map. The map is really fun and enjoyable!! Join us!

 

[learner gamer]

@Robert FIN:

Spoiler :

Good job on taking down both Gandhi and Izzy. But there are a couple of things to note IMHO:

(a) You don't need HAs to take down Gandhi (especially) and Izzy. Gandhi in particular builds very few units and the war chariot is one of the best unique units in the game. Think about it this way: with a barracks in place, each war chariot will have strength 5.5 if you give them combat I (since the base strength of a war chariot is 5). This isn't an awful lot lower than the base (ie. unpromoted) strength of 6 for a horse archer. When you have so many hammers and so little commerce available in particular, you're therefore better off saving all the beakers used to tech HBR and archery, and investing them in another tech (like alphabet) – and producing a few more war chariots instead.

(b) You should probably have waited to found Cairo. After all, you can't access it's main food tile until IW and you don't seem to be cottaging the place. IMHO, placing a city for the seafood / stone (to give you commerce from the seafood and stone for the 'mids, to leverage Ram's IND trait) or perhaps corn / copper / cow (which gives you three very powerful tiles to work) would have done much more for your empire at this point.

(c) You need to garrison Delhi to reduce anger. You also need to look at whipping in that city (because I think you'll still have one unhappy pop there after a garrison is placed in the city) – and look at whipping away unimproved tiles, perhaps to give you more workers.

(d) Alpha looks OK to help pay for maintenance (by building research) – but look to get some libraries and specialists running in a city or two to help keep your research moving.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Is it a good idea to build Barracks / Stable before a WC rush or not?

The Rush Calculator was intended to answer this kind of question. In the settings explored there, the answer was no -- however, War Chariots were not among the cases considered.

You can get some sense for how it is going to go by looking at Axeman results; however, you'll need to make some mental adjustments (or download the spread sheet an play with it a bit), as the calculator assumes the attacker is not first strike immune.


My guess: when the goal is to spike a single target; you're more likely to succeed if you arrive sooner, or with an extra chariot, than you are if you wait on the barracks.

BUT: given the power of war chariots, you shouldn't be thinking in terms of spike, but instead a protracted engagement. In those circumstances, a few turns delay to get the extra XP on everyone is likely to be a good bet -- war buggies are really strong for their era, and therefore really valuable.

Where it gets really difficult is evaluating the risk -- can the targets use the extra time that you give them to repel your attack? As far as I can tell, the BTS AI is blind to the fact that Egypt has war chariots vs their weaker cousins, and compensates even less than normal for that (although the AI may notice the steeper power curve you are on).

Against a target that is paying attention, delaying the attack long enough that the target can put spears into production will seriously jeopardize your chances of success.

 

[Robert FIN]

@lerner gamer: Thanks for help. I'll note the alphabet thing ! Next time; I won't use HAs if I have WarChariots. Homework done. Thanks again!

 

[learner gamer]

Is it a good idea to build Barracks / Stable before a WC rush or not?

The Rush Calculator was intended to answer this kind of question. In the settings explored there, the answer was no -- however, War Chariots were not among the cases considered.

You can get some sense for how it is going to go by looking at Axeman results; however, you'll need to make some mental adjustments (or download the spread sheet an play with it a bit), as the calculator assumes the attacker is not first strike immune.


My guess: when the goal is to spike a single target; you're more likely to succeed if you arrive sooner, or with an extra chariot, than you are if you wait on the barracks.

BUT: given the power of war chariots, you shouldn't be thinking in terms of spike, but instead a protracted engagement. In those circumstances, a few turns delay to get the extra XP on everyone is likely to be a good bet -- war buggies are really strong for their era, and therefore really valuable.

Where it gets really difficult is evaluating the risk -- can the targets use the extra time that you give them to repel your attack? As far as I can tell, the BTS AI is blind to the fact that Egypt has war chariots vs their weaker cousins, and compensates even less than normal for that (although the AI may notice the steeper power curve you are on).

Against a target that is paying attention, delaying the attack long enough that the target can put spears into production will seriously jeopardize your chances of success.

Agreed. Sorry, perhaps I should've been clearer.

Spoiler :

The reason I mentioned building a barracks is because war chariots are so dominant that you can use them to wage war in a series of engagements against multiple targets, if you so choose. Perhaps this is what you meant by protracted engagement @VoU?

What's more, the risk that the AI can build spears can be partly judged of course either (a) by scouting (b) by bringing up an AI's diplo screen and seeing what unit they talk about having and / or (c) seeing whether they're in slavery.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Excellent feedback all, exactly what Nobles Club is about IMO.

Spoiler :

Took the advice and as I had the Pyramids switched to Representation and ran a few Scientists, wow what a difference!! One turn away from Civil Service and have whipped a few Courthouses - I was using HR to manage anger but killing unhappy citizens works as well

So Economy is basically recovered, heading to Cuirassers now to take on Joao and Darius (have already taken one of his cities that was built on my continent!). Civil Service is 1 turn away and a Great Engineer has popped, he can bulb Machinery but not sure if that is the best move?

Tech situation:-

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Cities:-

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[VoiceOfUnreason]

@Robert FIN

Spoiler :

LG covered the main points, but there is one other point I wanted to raise....

When given the choice to keep or raze a city, you need to stay aware of where you are taking the game.

In this particular instance, you've been keeping cities without sufficient attention to your military ambitions or your economic strength.

Delhi, of course, is great to keep.

Bombay is going to be really strong -- but not nearly yet. You captured Bombay on turn 73, and you're still no where near Iron Working. You that's an area that you ought to have scouted long ago - to know that you would want to dig the gems out of the weeds, and it became a holy city on T46?

Barcelona? It's got a corn field and nothing else - it's currently costing you 4+g per turn, PLUS whatever increased expenses you are paying elsewhere because of it.

Madrid, of course, is another keeper.

Seville is going to be even harder on you than Barca - it's further away with fewer interesting tiles.

Put glibly, if you are going to fight a war, you should really plan to win it.

 

[awldune]

1570 Normal Emperor Conquest

Spoiler :

I actually didn't rush Ghandi, there was plenty of room for 6-7 cities and I didn't want his jungle cities that were close to me.

I built plenty of wonders. Oracled MC to get my cheap forges up and then built Stonehenge, Mids, and the Colossus. Later built TGL, Mausoleum, and Taj.

Won Lib and took MT as usual for me. Vassaled Ghandi and Izzy quickly and then had a lull while building galleys to upgrade and teching Astro.

Took out the Joao / Darius continent first, then I had tons of painful micro to look forward to in getting my troops to the other island.

I took out Saladin first as he was the farther behind, then worked my way north. Genghis got rifles the last turn of the game but that couldn't save him from massed cavs and cuirs.

 

[FlyingSwan]

View attachment NC 124 Ramesses II AD-1720 culture vic.CivBeyondSwordSave1725AD culture victory,Emporer,normal.



Had bad luck with the great people spawn so finish date is pretty lame considering the map.Thanks to Zarkon for posting the game.

 

[Izuul]

I wussed out and played this on Imm over the weekend

Spoiler :

WC rushed Gandhi and Oracled CoL in 1840BC. I think i was still able to get out something like 7-8 WCs while researching Oracle techs. It was plenty to take a city and pillage everything around his capitol while waiting on a few more troops. I finished him off easily after completing the Oracle. I almost wish i had let him settle another city...

Anyway, Buddhism died with Gandhi and Confucianism was adopted by everyone on the continent, including Izzy who had founded Judaism. My first GP was a priest so i built a shrine. Gandhi's double gem city became my capitol, i got like 10 cities without even pushing the expansion very hard, i built like every single wonder except some i intentionally didn't finish so that i would eventually get FG. Once the bureau cap got developed a bit i started pumping out some really nice BPT with the shrine funding a pretty large portion of my research.

I decided at that point that i didn't really want to kill off my Confucian brothers and sisters, so i thought i would go on a crusade against the Hindu nations on the other continent (it was the only religion not founded on our continent, so it was likely that everyone over there had it). Unfortunately, i just got bored and quit since there was no challenge left.

I guess i should have played on Deity like i was originally planning to do, but i thought something relaxing would be good for father's day weekend.

 

[Tall German Joe]

am playing this on deity as a Let's Play on another forum I frequent. played up to 600 BC so far, and the game is going very very well. I could crosspost it here, if anybody's interested... there will be a lot of text, though!

 

[Noble Zarkon]

am playing this on deity as a Let's Play on another forum I frequent. played up to 600 BC so far, and the game is going very very well. I could crosspost it here, if anybody's interested... there will be a lot of text, though!

Go for it I say!

 

[dalamb]

Monarch, Epic, 1908 Space Victory (39,000 score)

I backed up a little to take into account learner_gamer's advice.

Spoiler chronology :

Which, basically, was not to attack Spain until after Currency. I Oracled CoL in 500 BC, built courthouses, and got currency in 280 BC. I attacked in 160 AD, then extorted several techs in 280 AD when she was down to 3 cities:

Then finished her off in 550 AD. My economy was a little weak until I built the Forbidden Palace in Barcelona, but it was essentially smooth sailing from that point onward to space.

I forgot to mention before that I got the War Chariots event in 3175 BC, which on completion in 1475 BC led to a Combat I promotion for all my war chariots. I'd had to take Combat I for the chariots I used against Gandhi, but I deferred promoting the post-Indian-conquest units so I could get Combat II.

In the late game I founded Sid's Sushi, which let my last few cities (built in marginal locations) become moderately productive. I didn't spread it everywhere in my territory, since most were at or near (or above!) their limit, but did send a bunch to Joao and Darius' larger cities for some extra gold.

My research got a boost starting in 1724 AD when Darius peace-vassaled to me; I directed him along the Medicine-Genetics path while I did the rest myself. I finally launched in 1893 and landed 15 years later.

Status in 1908 AD:

Spoiler :

• My territory. Joao and Darius managed to grab some jungle cities on the eastern wing, but for the most part that was not-so-good territory for me. The one problem was lack of oil, so I settled on the oil on the medium-sized island to the west.
  Spoiler map :

  
  Also in 1900 AD: I didn't realize this was possible
  
• Relations: Nappy and his two vassals versus Joao and his colony. Both sides tried to get me involved, but I stayed out of it.
  
• The other continent. Napoleon had vassalized both Saladin and Genghis; most of the time when I was building my spaceship they were at war. The culture maps shows wars going back and forth over a lot of their history. They had no religion until I spread Hinduism there, so definitely no love fest.
  
• Charts. I was far behind Napoleon in power according to the charts, but with him having just finished a continental war I figure I was pretty safe. But while my best cities were building spaceship parts, I was grinding out fighters and tanks just in case.
  Spoiler charts :

  
  
• Techs. I wasn't as far ahead as I usually was in Noble games, especially with respect to Darius with whom I'd been trading techs after he peacevassaled to me.
  
• Wonders. I got most of the ones I wanted. Cristo Redentor was partly "because I can" but also partly a late-game hedge: with it you can switch to "bad" civics, flip someone into them with a spy, then switch back the next turn. I wasn't very worried about someone beating me to culture or space, though. There's not much to do with in some cities when you're gaining at 100% from building wealth in all but a few cities.
  
  
• Demographics. I was ahead for everything important except number of soldiers; had I been on the same continent with Nappy I might have been worried.
  

Does the game keep track of total playing time? I couldn't see anything obvious.

Thanks, NobleZarkon, for a fun map. Some people said it was easy, but that's apparently what I needed in order to keep going.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Does the game keep track of total playing time? I couldn't see anything obvious.

Not in front of my Civ machine until the weekend but yes, the Statistics does, think it's the next tab along from the Wonders / Top 5 cities.

Thanks, NobleZarkon, for a fun map. Some people said it was easy, but that's apparently what I needed in order to keep going.

Cheers

 

[learner gamer]

@dalamb:

Spoiler :

Where did I say not to attack Izzy until after currency? Perhaps it was the bit about attacking Izzy makes most sense if you can be sure that Joao has a trade partner? If so, I apologise for the confusion – because, as my shadow shows (and I mentioned in the wall of text that followed ), you can still comfortably take down Gandhi and Izzy and then recover by (i) running specialists (ii) building research to get to currency and (iii) building wealth to get to CoL. The point I was trying to make is that attacking both Izzy and Gandhi risks leaving you in semi-isolation to the detriment of tech trading. However, as I'm sure you're aware from your own isolated starts, being in semi or full isolation doesn't mean you can't still win, especially with all the land you'll have to then develop and settle. Talking of isolation by the way, has the Nobles' Club actually ever run an isolated start?

Back to this map meanwhile and I'd say that @Robert FIN is right: this map is great for the aspiring monarch - because (i) it shows just how powerful war chariots can be and (ii) provides the gamer with a brilliant lesson in how to recover from a crash. That's why, if you have the time and patience (given you've already won this game), I'd highly recommend playing (until you get to CoL) from a save in which you take out both Gandhi and Izzy.

Talking of saves by the way, I noticed that you mentioned in an earlier post that you were deleting all saves except for Nobles' Club games. With that in mind, I just wondered if perhaps there's something the mods can do (eg. to allow you access to a second account or give you more storage space) to hold all the NC games. After all, it strikes me that it's rather harsh to ask you to store all the NC games and not be able to post your own saves and get advice on them.

Talking of games, congrats on your win. And once again, apologies for any confusion caused.

 

[dalamb]

@learner_gamer:

Spoiler :

I suppose I should have said "the lesson I deduced from your advice". Maybe I should have followed on the game without restarting, given your actual advice, but I thought that would be too tedious and my main goal was to actually finish a game for the first time in a very long time, which might have been impossible if I went through yet another tedious recovery from economic crash (which bogged me down in two different attempts at Willem). Yes, continuing from an early takeout of Lizzy might be a good lesson. Not sure I can manage it anytime soon.

I didn't have alphabet yet, so building wasn't yet possible. Should I have waited for that before taking out Izzy, rather than all the way to currency?

With regard to deleting my own saves -- most of the old ones had either zero downloads or a small number likely from people who later made comments that more or less stand on their own. I was only about 14 MB out of 60, and am now down to 10, so maybe I was overzealous. It would indeed be nice if Nobles' Club saves didn't count against my limit somehow.

 

[Robert FIN]

@Dalamb: Congratulations for solid victory, Dalamb! Do it again in Alex and Hannibal games and you're ready to EMP-level! @Lerner Gamer: The map gave me a lesson that its possible to die to lack of funds. After conquering the 2nd target I was losing money in 0% science investion (strike). I lost ALL of my units including workers. It was game over stuff after that... I should've listened to you.. Monach's slower science did its job. @NobleZ: Thanks for the map! It was really fun after I screved up !

 

[learner gamer]

@dalamb:

Spoiler :

Yeah, I understand completely about finishing a game. In fact, on that topic, I continued the game I submitted earlier to 1240 AD – and with only the other continent (which doesn't even have engineering yet) left to kill off, decided to put this game down. So by completing this one, you've gone further than I did.

Re: whether you should wait until alphabet. IMHO, @TMIT has it spot on: if playing on the higher levels - like immortal in his game or monarch in yours – all you really need is to be closing in on alphabet, as opposed to actually having it. In short, you just need to be able to get to (or trade for) alphabet before your gold runs out. Once at alphabet, you can then build research to get you to currency and then wealth to get to CoL.

@Robert FIN:

Spoiler :

I thought that might happen. After all, monarch's the first level at which maintenance costs start to bite – and this being your first game on monarch, you've still to learn how to recover your economy. Do you have a save to look at? It might point to something that helps you in future games.

Just to illustrate what's possible meanwhile – and because I thought this might be an issue for you - I've attached below a shadow from your earlier save. In other words, this game has been played from your 750 BC save.

As at the save, you have 11 cities (and a 12th just about to be settled), a clear tech lead, an 80% chance of a scientist in a couple of turns that will bulb philosophy and the 'mids in the capital. Joao has settled two cities on the landmass – but they can be reclaimed later. If it helps, I also saved at a few points along the way – when I reached key decisions or thought there was something to illustrate – and can post those too if you want.

 

[Tall German Joe]

Go for it I say!

ok, you asked for it! just gonna copy/paste these post by post, even though the intro post has a lot of duplicate info in the OP...

intro + to 3320 BC:

Spoiler :

LP DIETY: NC CXXIV Ramesses II of the Egyptians
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=498192

the leader:

ramses is one of the strongest leaders in the game. industrious is one of the strongest leader traits, tied in the top tier with financial in my opinion, although it is also less consistent. not only do you have a greatly increased ability to secure key wonders, but also half priced forges and the ability to net a profit failgolding *any* wonder. if abused, you can net as many or more beakers via the +50% industrious multiplier than you can from financial over the course of the game before lib. spiritual is also a really great trait, not only saving you on anarchy but also letting you micro your traits for improved diplo and stuff like bursts of caste system, feudalism, and pacifism in certain situations. spiritual also gives half-priced temples, which is awesome if going for a cultural victory or if you have the AP religion.

on top of the nice traits, egypt is very powerful in its own right. they start with agriculture and the wheel, the two most expensive and useful starting techs. the UU, the war chariot, sits by itself in tier 3 in terms of UU rankings. it's probably the strongest unit in the game that isn't categorically broken (like the quecha and the fast worker). the UB, the obelisk, is highly situational, but very powerful in the right circumstances. I'll let you know if these circumstances come up.

and the start:

ok, so the map settings are hemispheres (with an extra AI, to make 8 total, although this can be split 3/5, 5/3, or 4/4). hemispheres is kinda like pangaea with a slower tech pace but at the cost of a huge gamble. the gamble is that if one continent gets only one religion and turns into a love fest, the game is basically unwinnable unless you had already conquered your hemisphere completely by like 1000 AD. no huts and no events because the game is hard enough already without giving the AI free settlers and horseback riding at T10.

I moved the warrior SW, and felt that settling in place on the plains hill was the obvious thing to do.

its a pretty strong hammer capital for rushing, so hopefully somebody is nearby. I then go to give the barbs their starting techs (if you've ever seen chris do this in his videos, its because "series" games from CFC have been modified so that a save for every difficulty level is generated from the base map, but, unfortunately, there's a worldbuilder bug where barbarians don't get the proper techs for the difficulty, like as if you had created the game via the Play Now! or Custom Game options. deity barbs are supposed to start with agriculture, the wheel, hunting, and archery, and if you don't give them that, then you're just giving the AI civs free cities). as soon as I open the worldbuilder (I zoom in so I don't see too much) I see this:

looks like a wc rush in in my future!! (this is actually not much of a surprise)

but who will it be?

YOU???

or YOU ????????????????

you.

3280 BC, and you can already see that he has 2 cities, a holy city, and has his settler out for a third!